[Pressline47]

First order of business, welcome back silv, we all missed you.











Secondly my only quelps are the dragon blood (to late unless ban omni_ultima.. j/k lol)







And more importantly the high hp specs. I understand a lot of people are unhappy with the 2* and 3* prayer combos, and I agree this is a problem. However, this problem pales in comparison to to that of the high hp specs. Nothing can keep up with them in lvling speed. They get the highest % in dens (I'd assume). Can kill everything except (maybe) hercs. Also are currently the only specs that can really pk above their lvl. Often 5-10 lvls (just from the ones that have passed me I know this) and if there is a sharpy or archmage then much higher.







IMHO the first fix needs to be for hp specs. If you nerf prayer or hercs (actually a nerf on hercs and hp could come together really easily) then it would just be easier for high hp specs to trample through.







After hp specs I think a strength nerf is next in line. Immediately followed by a nerf to lower specced prayer.







On the other side range badly needs to be raised, magic does also I assume there aren't any near my level that I have seen. But a lot of people are unhappy so I'd agree. And I think attack and defense need HUGE boosts if strength isn't greatly nerfed.







Lastly, I think the adventurer powers need to be changed, last time I saw an adventurer I would win every time unless they got 4 or 5 powers at once. On both sides it is annoying that who wins is ENTIRELY based on luck. Seeing myself win 8 times in a row to lose a few like that is annoying. And probably much worse for the person depending on that luck. Maybe if they got a random number of powers from 1-4 with 100% that they get at least 1 power.

[blackrazor]

I had two other ideas, unrelated to stat/skill balancing. Two functionality things I wanted to toss out there:







1) Allow players to specify a negative number on their skills in the Training Yard. Their skills would drop by the amount indicated. The xp could either:







a) Be reclaimed back into the Free Exp box.







1/2 reclaimed, and 1/2 lost.







c) Be lost.







This is especially useful when Arenascape undergoes changes, and you all of a sudden need lows in something that you didn't see the need before. Plus it encourages players to try new things, which will result in better feedback on class balance.







If you choose "© all the exp is lost for dropped skills", in order to prevent abuse (constant changing for pk advantages), this would still be useful to players looking to correct lost lows, or lost specs. There should be a confirmation window to approve the change, so it isn't done by accident.







=====







2) Give players an option to create temporary characters, in order to rigorously test game balance. You'll get much improved feedback about spec/skill balance, this way. These would be the proposed rules for temporary characters:







a) Each player can have only two temporary characters at a time, in order to control both sides of a test duel, if necessary.







Temporary characters start off with enough Free Exp to rise to combat level 220, of course you use just what you need, in order to test what you need to test.







c) Temporary characters always win their equipment from guardians, whether they win, lose, or draw the fight.







d) Temporary characters can attack any player character, alive, dead, or Inned. BUT, there is no loss or gain of fame, and no loss of the 10 pk lives from any such battles. They are for testing purposes, only.







e) Temporary characters automatically expire after any of (whichever comes first):







(i) They spend 500 turns



(ii) 24 hours



(iii) They log out

[pianofrieak2]

I don't think we could have test chars because that would put more stress on the server. That's why 2 chars is the limit. Silv pays for the server out of his own pocket, so I don't think that will work. Unless everyone clicks a hundred banners a day!

[Pressline47]

For your unleveling, I dislike this in any way (best is exp is lost though) because I have always liked the idea that your decisions are permanent. If you wanna test out new specs, you have to work for them.







Which brings me to your second suggestion, at one point I thought something like this would be great. But it takes the fun out of the game, the discovery. If you already knew exactly how successful you char would be when coming out of a transition compared to your exact competition it wouldn't be fun (for me at least). Also the game would be in constant shift because people would know which specs would be most successful so it would just become madness.

[blackrazor]

Pressline47 said:

And more importantly the high hp specs. I understand a lot of people are unhappy with the 2* and 3* prayer combos, and I agree this is a problem. However, this problem pales in comparison to to that of the high hp specs. Nothing can keep up with them in lvling speed. They get the highest % in dens (I'd assume). Can kill everything except (maybe) hercs. Also are currently the only specs that can really pk above their lvl. Often 5-10 lvls (just from the ones that have passed me I know this) and if there is a sharpy or archmage then much higher.

I have a lvl 40 Juggernaut (*6 HP)



Att 34



Str 25



Def 17



HP 58



Magic 15



Pray 14



Range 5







Steel Chain



Steel Square



Black longsword







My att and str are as high as can be, yet I still rarely hit anything with a def spec, or even with def = combat. I can't kill in the den at all, since monsters at my level kill or draw about three times more often than I kill them. Monsters 5 to 10 levels higher? That's suicide for me.







Against players I tend to do better, only because most players ignore defense. I can't kill adventurers, their def is too high. Hercs are a damage race, but a well built Herc's att and def will stop me cold, and I will die as its overwhelming str eats through my hp. Mages kill me or draw if they animate, otherwise they are easy xp. Rangers are rediculously easy xp, I can kill *6 and *7 rangers at about 20 levels above me. I agree that this is unfair, but there are very few rangers, and I assume that fixing range is a priority, anyways.







I'd really like to hear from ifxd64 (Baratus) for a look at how HP specs perform at higher lvls, since I'm only lvl 40, afterall.

[blackrazor]

Pianofrieak2: ahhh... I had thought the limit was there to prevent players from playing "rock paper scissors" with themselves, for maximum pk leveling speeds. But if it would cost Silverion too much, then I understand completely. Maybe Silverion could release a "standalone" version of AS, so players interested in doing the research could test it without chewing through his bandwidth.







Pressline47: Yes, I see your point about it removing the thrill of discovery. Plus Piano's point about cost. But the game is in alpha, and I figured that Silverion needed the best class balancing data he could get. Right now, with transitioning a pain, people tend to rely on a lot of assumptions that may be much less correct than is commonly believed. I believe that there are many cases where the scissors get blamed for killing the paper, without looking at the rock.

[blackrazor]

I had another idea, this time playing some more with the lows:







1) Make low prayer give it's bonus to str.







Since prayer is the most prized skill not to lose to a low, and str is the most valuable mellee skill, this will balance two ways. It will make the low in prayer much more valuable. It will give maxed out str specs (and HP specs) the weakness of low prayer.







2) Make low magic give it's bonus to def.







If you're considering a low in magic, then you're probably looking at magic as a defence against magic specs, rather than for its offense. You can choose to be further weakened in magic defense, with a gain in mellee defence.







3) Make low range give it's bonus to att.







A nice trade of one offense stat for another. Do you want to hit more often? Or do you want to smack people around a bit with that bow?







4) Make low def give it's bonus to prayer.







There is a natural synergy here, as lower defense also means you will get hit harder, so prayer will reflect more earlier on. This should help high spec prayer types (which need help). *2/*3 prayer combos that try this might get smacked around harder than their prayer will help them, but this remains to be tested.







5) Make low hp, att, str give their bonuses to range.







The ultimate ranger. He had better kill quick, because with no hp or offensive mellee, he will be very vulnerable. Still this will overpower range, unless prayer and defense are given a good role in absorbing/reflecting/reducing range damage. So that needs to be added as a package deal, in my opinion.







Also beware of *4 mage / *2 range, with lows in hp, att, str .. especially if they animate. Could be very cool to see, but all the more reason to give prayer and def a real role vs. ranged damage at the same time.







*2 range / *4 prayer, with lows in hp, att, str, def ... and magic near combat level, would be loads of fun, too.







*6 range, with lows in hp, att, str, magic ... and def near combat level, would be another interesting thing to try with this proposed lows system.

[hydroblaster]

firstly, welcome bak silv. altho u dont know me u dont no how happy im am to see u after a year of u being missing (kidnapped?? )







secondly, blackrazer, most of ur ideas are good except 2. i think low ranged shud NOT give a spec to attack. that way hercs and mountsians wud be evn MORE overpowerd. and the thing about changing sepcs is not a good idea. cos then everyone will just change to one spec and there will be no variety.







thirdly the changes i propose:







1."50 fights: button is a very good idea xenthe_tek



2.attack needs a strength bonus. and the extra chance to hit shud be raised from 15 to 20%



defense needs to actually make a difference at 4* and higher. make it so that defense specs also give strength bonuses so that when you CA or attack you do more damage.



ranged is underpowerd way too much. Sharpies are kindof ok, the poroblem is not the sharpies themselves, but too many hp/prayer/magic specs. only the ranged without a specs need a boost. snce its so underpowered, many ppl ahve chosen to get lowranged.



lowprayer: its not as bad as it seems. the only porblem here is tjhat prayer's differnece gives a defense bonus to the other guy whereas magic and ranged dont make much of a difference. i suggest low prayer will not be calculated into the differece of prayer, but instead make the refelcton only 40%







3.Overpowered specs are:



prayer: the defense bonus it gives should be lowered, and also 2* pryer should refelct 55% and not 50%.



magic: magic should not be able to lower someone else's damage. that is what makes it so ahrd to kil 5/6/or 7* mages. if u take some1 like piano's suprememage, i lose if i cant kill suprememage in 6 rounds even if he doesnt hit me once and iv got a prayer spec. cos he does average of 57damage per round and i do 7. add on the ragned damage and refelction thats over 220 damage.



hitpoints: stre bonus shud be x-3



strength: attack bonus shud be canceled. defense onus shud be lowered to difference of stats multpiled by 20%. wich is still around 15 for a lvl 140 6* herc.







P.S. some of the bonuses here are just estimates because there is nowhere where it states clearly wat the actual bonuses are.

[blackrazor]

hydroblaster said:

i think low ranged shud NOT give a spec to attack. that way hercs and mountsians wud be evn MORE overpowerd..

Hi Hydro.







Actually, I proposed my lows, so that exactly the opposite would be true. High HP specs (eg. Mountains) would suffer the most.







Instead of gaining *1 bonus HP, and *2 bonus STR from lows in magic and range, they would gain *1 bonus STR from a low in prayer. So they would lose *1 bonus HP, and *1 bonus STR, plus aquire a low in prayer (generally considered to be suicide). Yes, they could gain *1 bonus in ATT from low range, and *1 bonus in DEF from low magic, but that still wouldn't even come close to making up for the loss in HP, CB, and base damage.







High Str specs (eg. Hercs) would suffer, too. Yes, they could still get their *1 bonus STR, but now it would come at the expense of low prayer. They could also get *1 bonus ATT from low range, and *1 bonus DEF from low magic, but then they have all three lows, and that low prayer is generally considered to be a killer. I don't think the benefits of the other 2 lows would make up for the need to have low prayer in order to gain the *1 STR bonus.







So Hercs probably would be generally considered weaker by this proposal, too ... although not as badly nerfed as HP specs.

[hydroblaster]

blackrazor said:

hydroblaster said:

i think low ranged shud NOT give a spec to attack. that way hercs and mountsians wud be evn MORE overpowerd..

Hi Hydro.







Actually, I proposed my lows, so that exactly the opposite would be true. High HP specs (eg. Mountains) would suffer the most.







Instead of gaining *1 bonus HP, and *2 bonus STR from lows in magic and range, they would gain *1 bonus STR from a low in prayer. So they would lose *1 bonus HP, and *1 bonus STR, plus aquire a low in prayer (generally considered to be suicide). Yes, they could gain *1 bonus in ATT from low range, and *1 bonus in DEF from low magic, but that still wouldn't even come close to making up for the loss in HP, CB, and base damage.







High Str specs (eg. Hercs) would suffer, too. Yes, they could still get their *1 bonus STR, but now it would come at the expense of low prayer. They could also get *1 bonus ATT from low range, and *1 bonus DEF from low magic, but then they have all three lows, and that low prayer is generally considered to be a killer. I don't think the benefits of the other 2 lows would make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up for the need to have low prayer in order to gain the *1 STR bonus.







So Hercs probably would be generally considered weaker by this proposal, too ... although not as badly nerfed as HP specs.

no.. u dont understand. u dont need the low prayer. if a 7* herc has low ranged only, they have 7* stre AND 2* attack. plus the stre already gives alot of attack and defense bonuses already. the 2* attack wud be enuff to kill anyone in 3 rounds.







EDIT : hi to u too blackrazor. the first sentence, and i dint even take notice of it. how rude of me

[Silverion]

Migueelo said:

This is kind of a 2nd priority thing, but still:







What can be done? Well, clans must have something to do, and that something most probably is clan wars. I know, it takes a lot of time to implement such element in to the game, and it makes ever longer time to make it work properly. It's probably one of those things you think you can do in half an year but ends up taking half a decade. But still, I hope we can all enjoy those wars, someday.

Lol sincerly one thing that sap most my forces was thinking how to do a guild combat but pls dont talk about it now as we have first to see all your opinions on classes.







As for now it look like most problems create as always lows. hmm problem is as some of you remember that when i introduced on 2 times different lows people was crying all around. rvrn when i added lows + for magic , prayer and when we removed all lows too to many people count on that. Lows are introduced as protection for melee monsters who was too weak long time ago.

[blackrazor]

hydroblaster said:

no.. u dont understand. u dont need the low prayer. if a 7* herc has low ranged only, they have 7* stre AND 2* attack. plus the stre already gives alot of attack and defense bonuses already. the 2* attack wud be enuff to kill anyone in 3 rounds.







EDIT : hi to u too blackrazor. the first sentence, and i dint even take notice of it. how rude of me

Hi







A *7 herc who got that *7 without a lows bonus (almost unheard of, I think), would have attack at x-16 to x-19. A *2 bonus on that weak attack won't help him much. Heck, with *7 STR spec, based on str at x+19, he won't need a further spec in ATT in order to hit. He might be better off keeping his range above the low, and doing some extra damage with his bow.







====







Hi Silverion TY for this very cool game.







I personally think lows are awesome! They allow for a lot more viable combos and high-specs, than would be available otherwise. They also add more layers, depth of strategy, to your already great game.







The trick is to choose which lows will give which specific bonus, so that maximum benefit and balance is obtained. I posted about that a bit earlier in this thread.







Just some minor changes in which low will help which skill, will make a world of difference.







That, and my suggestion to give animate-like quality to counter-attack, and double attack, are my two main recommendations.

[pianofrieak2]

Hey, hydro.







I'm sorry but I do not win against you very often at all. You usually kill me by the sixth round because you hit too hard.







Pallys are overpowered!







But, yes, *5 magic is better than *5 prayer for that reason: If we can last until round 6, then we hit very hard. It's just hard to have enough supports to beat a paladin that's 4 lvls above me.

[hydroblaster]

pianofrieak2 said:

Hey, hydro.







I'm sorry but I do not win against you very often at all. You usually kill me by the sixth round because you hit too hard.







Pallys are overpowered!







But, yes, *5 magic is better than *5 prayer for that reason: If we can last until round 6, then we hit very hard. It's just hard to have enough supports to beat a paladin that's 4 lvls above me.

are u sure this isnt just the first 3 fites being unlucky??

[blackrazor]

Ideally, every viable spec combo should be able to "own" some other viable spec combos, while in turn being "owned" by others. Rock, paper, scissors.







If they were all the exact same in performance, then there would be no point in the differences.







Still, striving for some general overall balance, where each spec combo "owns" and "gets owned" in similar magnitudes, is a valid concern.







Overpowered specs "own" too many other specs, or "own" even at rediculously huge level differences.







Similarly, underpowered specs "own" too few (or none) other specs.







Although, it gets complicated, too.







What if you had a spec that could "own" every other spec, as long as it was at least 1 level lower, but could own nothing at its level or higher. Still good stable leveling, I believe.







And what if you had another spec that owned absolutely nothing, except for one specific spec which it utterly destroys, even at 10, 15, or 20 levels above. The trick would be finding the necessary PBs, trickier than it sounds, sometimes.







So sometimes you have to balance by "feel", and not everyone will agree with your decision, often depending on whether they happen to be the rock, paper, or scissors in that particular equation. But alas, you can't make all of the players happy, all of the time, so you try your best to achieve what you think are the priorities (albeit with player input, certainly).

[Devilsdragon]

blackrazor said:

Ideally, every viable spec combo should be able to "own" some other viable spec combos, while in turn being "owned" by others. Rock, paper, scissors.

except the rock paper scissors game looks more like this

[pianofrieak2]

Yes, Hydro, I'm certain.







You win most of the time because you hit so hard. Although I can still pull off a few wins here and there.

[Pressline47]

pianofrieak2 said:

Yes, Hydro, I'm certain.







You win most of the time because you hit so hard. Although I can still pull off a few wins here and there.

If I understand correctly you are 5* mage and you lose to hydro's paladin?







My paladin has always struggled with any mage 4* 5* 6* and 7* Animating or not I always lost. It has been maybe 15+ lvls since I've noticed a mage, so I may be wrong.. but I nvr finished one before round 6.

[pianofrieak2]

Ok, just call me a loser.







Yes, I'm *5 magic, and if I can last until round 6, I can usually win. I just usually lose because he hits 24's on me! Grrr!

[hydroblaster]

pianofrieak2 said:

Ok, just call me a loser.







Yes, I'm *5 magic, and if I can last until round 6, I can usually win. I just usually lose because he hits 24's on me! Grrr!

i gotta agree with pressline here. i cant kill u that often. i still hit 15's on u, and u mostly win.