The Dark Lord Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 I remember there being a discussion about the UK placing certain restrictions on anime and manga because there was a fear that the characters were drawn in a way that would encourage paedophilia (due to the female characters looking younger than what they were). This was an interesting topic, so I wanted to share it with you. Are similar bans justified, and should people view anime as something that encourages child pornography, or should it be viewed separately? Should people be arrested/fined for possessing 'lolicon' anime, or do you believe that legislators are distorting the anime subculture and viewing it in the wrong way? Anyway, if you're not too familiar with anime, here is a good example of what I'm talking about: I would like to hear your opinions, as I feel like this would make a stellar moral debate.Just a tip, make sure you keep this discussion mature and thoughtful, it is after all a very touchy subject. Also, as you may know, no explicit pictures, etc. -Mrshinyredplanet. SWAG Mayn U wanna be like me but U can't be me cuz U ain't got ma swagga on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconic Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 If it could turn into an urge for children than it needs to be reviewed, if not than I see no problem. Edit: I don't understand the reason, it almost certiantly could turn into an urge for children or encourage than yes. Also are we talking about pornography or just drawings because I think a lot of shows on the telly have children under 5. If its child pornography than it also certaintly should be banned but if its just a character than not so much. [Falador tavern] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldJoe Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are? A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'? J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff moviesJe trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vieJe ne me reconnais plus dans les gensJe suis juste un cas désespérantEt comme personne ne viendra me réclamerJe terminerai comme un objet retrouvé Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Imo it should be legal, seeing the point of outlawing CP is to protect children, while nobody is harmed in the making of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted September 14, 2010 Author Share Posted September 14, 2010 I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are? A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'? Certainly, but most of the time it is rather innocent, IMHO. It's certainly strange from an outsider's point-of-view (as in all the over-exaggerated cuteness and such), but then again most of modern Japanese culture is strange [to Westerners] anyway. I'm pretty neutral as far as the more 'hentai' aspect goes, but it's not something I would be interested in, though I don't really believe that it should be punishable. Typically child pornography is bad because you're taking advantage of children, but this is not the case with a drawing that is subjective and may only appear to depict a child when it really doesn't (as in the way it's drawn). However, one could argue that it encourages child molesters when they see the drawing and want to sexually abuse real children. In that case, it could be a major problem. SWAG Mayn U wanna be like me but U can't be me cuz U ain't got ma swagga on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napalm Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 It should be legal, as it's a work of fantasy that depicts no real persons. Saying that it encourages child pornography is the same than saying that playing violent first-person-shooters encourages real life killing. If someone were to develop some kind of obsession about children because of watching lolicon material, then I believe the problem is not in lolicon itself, but in the person who develops the obsession and doesn't know how to draw the line between fantasy and reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaida23 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Lolicon, as I understand it, is not necessarily about girls who are underage but rather girls who look like they're underage. There's a big difference there. It feeds the male fantasy of innocence, and possibly corrupting that innocence, but doesn't turn a person into a pedophile. Unless a person is already attracted to underage girls, looking at pictures of what looks like underage girls isn't going to turn them into a child molester. Even if you are attracted to underage girls, it's not going to make you go out and molest children unless that's something you were already planning to do. Pictures/movies/music don't make people do anything, we all make our own choices. Check out my blog to read the Adventures of a Big Damn (F2P) Hero. THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P. So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul191600 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 So basically lolicon is people whacking off to neo-underage girls? The sour dough of the epitmous pie hungers for another's sweet lips to be dulled into a state of most irreverant humblenessTUBULAR BELLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldJoe Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are? A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'? Certainly, but most of the time it is rather innocent, IMHO. It's certainly strange from an outsider's point-of-view (as in all the over-exaggerated cuteness and such), but then again most of modern Japanese culture is strange [to Westerners] anyway. I'm pretty neutral as far as the more 'hentai' aspect goes, but it's not something I would be interested in, though I don't really believe that it should be punishable. Typically child pornography is bad because you're taking advantage of children, but this is not the case with a drawing that is subjective and may only appear to depict a child when it really doesn't (as in the way it's drawn). However, one could argue that it encourages child molesters when they see the drawing and want to sexually abuse real children. In that case, it could be a major problem.Apart from have trained Aikido since i was 10, yes, my Japanese knowledge is limited. Obviously i don't know anything about this subject, which i guess renders my post pretty useless to start with. Anyways, yes i know it's just drawn pictures and not real. If it's just pictures depicting young girls (not so much guys i guess) "looking cute", no i don't have any view one way or the other. If it steps into the area of sex, in some way or other, depicting under-age.... Then i would have a problem with it. If i were a dad for example, and found my son reading such stuff, i would throw it away. Basically my reason is that it depicts an under-age person in a manner which could possibly turn some on. I read some about it on wiki, and no, i wouldn't be ok with it if it goes to such areas, i do not find it appropriate to combine such age and acts. I imagine i might sound similar to some who wants to band GTA 4 and such games, which obviously has the same discussion about a different topic. I should point out before anyone starts reading in to this, that yes, a no brainer, you would wish for such sick child porn viewers to watch such manga instead. Would i brand this "child porn"? No. But i would find it disturbing seeing a grown teacher and a 12 year old girl going on an adventure, even tho it's fantasy. If it consists of a person with the "right age" but only depicting a under age, then i would not have such a biggie with it. I don't know how to really phrase myself, but i hope i've made my point a bit half clear at least. J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff moviesJe trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vieJe ne me reconnais plus dans les gensJe suis juste un cas désespérantEt comme personne ne viendra me réclamerJe terminerai comme un objet retrouvé Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alg Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Better this than actual children, if you're talking about the pornographic aspect of it. If it's porn, give it the same restrictions as any other adult content. Not all cartoons are for kids, right? :razz: If it's not pornographic at all it's really no different than any other cartoon. I painted some stuff and put it on tumblr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star_Fox Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Lolicon, as I understand it, is not necessarily about girls who are underage but rather girls who look like they're underage. There's a big difference there. It feeds the male fantasy of innocence, and possibly corrupting that innocence, but doesn't turn a person into a pedophile. Unless a person is already attracted to underage girls, looking at pictures of what looks like underage girls isn't going to turn them into a child molester. Even if you are attracted to underage girls, it's not going to make you go out and molest children unless that's something you were already planning to do. Pictures/movies/music don't make people do anything, we all make our own choices. Yes, but lolicon imitates neoteny to attract its viewers. which is almost the same thing as being sexually attracted to younger children, just not as genuine. You may see graphic pictures of girls without developed breasts, but then you may also see ADULT characteristics like bigger height. So thisdoesn't entirely compromise child pornography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alg Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Yes, but lolicon imitates neoteny to attract its viewers. which is almost the same thing as being sexually attracted to younger children, just not as genuine.If someone's attracted to young children, they probably aren't going to change any time soon, so if they can get the same thing out of a cartoon as an actual kid, the option that doesn't hurt anyone is the lesser of two evils. I painted some stuff and put it on tumblr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzle229 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 No children are harmed or abused, so it should be legal. If anything, it might actually be a good thing, as an alternative to actual pedophilia. Get back here so I can rub your butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Weirds me out, but if that's the closest they're getting to children than I'm indifferent to it. [bleep] the law, they can eat my dick that's word to Pimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2PM Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Well, I guess it should be legal if its not anything going on the boundaries of anything sexual. But I just dont see the appeal of...15 year old girls looking and acting like 7 year olds...? Is this how the logic works...? "Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick." - Master Tang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzle229 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 @halo, even if it is sexual, it should be legal. When deciding if something should be legal or not, just ask "is this hurting anyone?" If not, then it should be legal, and I don't believe this is hurting anyone. The only argument against this is the same argument that says video games turn normal people into homicidal maniacs. Get back here so I can rub your butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2PM Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 True, but then it would be Child Pornography, what OP is talking about. "Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick." - Master Tang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das1330 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Pedophilia is a mental disorder, and no evidence exists to suggest virtual materials would encourage violence against children. Rather then rehashing the entire argument myself, below is an excerpt from the court decision in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition. It explains why exactly virtual child porn should be legal far more elegantly then I can. Thus, the Child Protection Act prohibited speech for a different reason than anti-child pornography laws. Laws prohibiting the distribution and possession of child pornography ban speech because of the manner in which it is produced, regardless of its serious literary or artistic value. But speech prohibited by the Child Protection Act "records no crime and creates no victims by its production." Child pornography is not necessarily without value, but it is illegal because of the harm that making and distributing it necessarily inflicts upon children. Ferber expressly allowed virtual child pornography as an alternative that could preserve whatever literary value child pornography might arguably have while at the same time mitigating the harm caused by making it. Further, the First Amendment draws a distinction between words and deeds, and does not tolerate banning of mere words simply because those words could lead to bad deeds. Although the Child Protection Act's objective was to prohibit illegal conduct, it went well beyond that goal by restricting speech available to law-abiding adults. And if the goal was to eliminate the market for all child pornography, the Court ruled that the government could not accomplish that goal by eliminating lawful speech in the process. The burden should not, however, fall on the speaker to prove that his speech is lawful, instead of on the government to prove that it is not. Furthermore, such an affirmative defense is "incomplete on its own terms" because it "allows persons to be convicted in some instances where they can prove children were not exploited in the production." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Ignore this post. And I didn't even post the image itself. I was going to eat hot dogs for dinner tonight. I think I will settle for cereal. OPEN WIDE HERE COMES THE HELICOPTER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Not sure I see the artistic value of it.Sounds to me by that courts argument, all mature internet material of this nature could be banned, to protect the children. Are the ears in the pic provided part of lolicon too, or just some weird fettish? 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nenga Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Not sure I see the artistic value of it.Sounds to me by that courts argument, all mature internet material of this nature could be banned, to protect the children. Are the ears in the pic provided part of lolicon too, or just some weird fettish?Usually ears and tails are added to loli for cuteness factors. You mention loli but you say nothing about shota, i'm disappointed in you. Shotacon is pretty much the same thing except boys instead of girls. As long as it's not out right porn it's not a big deal. I know that someone was already jailed for this though. I'll see if I can find the article. Edit: [hide=the article]A U.S. comic book collector is being sentenced to six months in prison after pleading guilty to importing and possessing Japanese manga books depicting illustrations of child sex and bestiality. Christopher Handley was sentenced in Iowa on Thursday, (.pdf) almost a year after pleading guilty to charges of possessing obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children. The 40-year-old was charged under the 2003 Protect Act, which outlaws cartoons, drawings, sculptures or paintings depicting minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct, and which lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Handley was the nations first to be convicted under that law for possessing cartoon art, without any evidence that he also collected or viewed genuine child pornography. Without a plea deal with federal authorities, he faced a maximum 15-year sentence. Comic fans were outraged, saying jailing someone over manga does not protect children from sexual abuse. Id say the anime communitys reaction to this, since day one, has been almost exclusively one of support for Handley and disgust with the U.S. courts and legal system, Christopher MacDonald, editor of Anime News Network, said in an e-mail. Congress passed the Protect Act after the Supreme Court struck down a broader law prohibiting any visual depictions of minors engaged in sexual activity, including computer-generated imagery and other fakes. The high court ruled that the ban was too broad, and could cover legitimate speech, including Hollywood productions. In response, the Protect Act narrows the prohibition to cover only depictions that the defendants community would consider obscene. The case began in 2006, when customs officials intercepted and opened a package from Japan addressed to Handley. Seven books of manga inside contained cartoon drawings of minors engaged in sexually explicit acts and bestiality.[/hide] http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/ It was only a few mangas I believe out of a large number the person had ordered but I can't find a story to confirm that (yet). Ponies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RpgGamer Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 I'm still lol'ing that people get off to cartoons. Quote Quote Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic. Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos. PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude Steam: NippleBeardTM Origin: Brand_New_iPwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel555555 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Should furry be banned because it promotes beastiality? Or go the road of the Aussies(i think) and prevent any women with small breast from apearing in porn, because it apparently also promoted child porn. And as sniperas posted, the purpose of the child porn laws were to protect children from being abused. Since no one is actually getting hurt I don't see the problem with this. This might actually be a good thing really. Would you rather have someone wacking off to this or to an actual child? [spoiler=click you know you wanna]Me behave? Seriously? As a child I saw Tarzan almost naked, Cinderella arrived home from a party after midnight, Pinocchio told lies, Aladin was a thief, Batman drove over 200 miles an hour, Snow White lived in a house with seven men, Popeye smoked a pipe and had tattoos, Pac man ran around to digital music while eating pills that enhanced his performance, and Shaggy and Scooby were mystery solving hippies who always had the munchies. The fault is not mine! if you had this childhood and loved it put this in your signature! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nenga Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 The fears are after seeing an image enough, you'll want the real thing. Which I don't know. After having McDonalds I want anything but a hamburger. Ponies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel555555 Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 The fears are after seeing an image enough, you'll want the real thing. Which I don't know. After having McDonalds I want anything but a hamburger. If that theory worked then anyone who ever played a shooting game or saw any violent t.v. show would be going out and causing a masacre. [spoiler=click you know you wanna]Me behave? Seriously? As a child I saw Tarzan almost naked, Cinderella arrived home from a party after midnight, Pinocchio told lies, Aladin was a thief, Batman drove over 200 miles an hour, Snow White lived in a house with seven men, Popeye smoked a pipe and had tattoos, Pac man ran around to digital music while eating pills that enhanced his performance, and Shaggy and Scooby were mystery solving hippies who always had the munchies. The fault is not mine! if you had this childhood and loved it put this in your signature! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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