Hedgehog Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I really dislike that everyone's just counting crims per trip. That's a really inaccurate way to gather data. If anything, we should work to find their defense rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerfrog Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I really dislike that everyone's just counting crims per trip. That's a really inaccurate way to gather data. If anything, we should work to find their defense rating.I acknowledged that it wasn't the best method for determining the effectivness of either weapon and recommended others to use alternative methods, i only counted crimsons as it was more of a small personal test than a quest to find a definite answer and counting crimsons was far less effort on my part. I know nothing about how defense ratings work and how accuratley they represent runescape but that sounds like a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lose No Hope Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I really dislike that everyone's just counting crims per trip. That's a really inaccurate way to gather data. If anything, we should work to find their defense rating.I couldn't agree more. I think Levon had gathered some data a while back, but not enough to draw a definite conclusion. [hide]unbinding green's kidneys for ltk's heartdo you farm guam like me sir ltk[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 If everyone counts crimsons/trip it'll all work out given sufficient tests... you need kills/hr to work out xp/hr, effigies/hr etcetera but charms/hr is perfectly relevant to relative kill speeds. A larger problem is time zones (crowded/uncrowded worlds & accompanying spawn rates) and picking up drops or not. Those things vary from person to person instead of being steady. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Defense ratings would still be much more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Defense ratings would still be much more accurate.More widely applicable and requiring less data-gathering maybe, but there's already much more data on charms. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Defense ratings would still be much more accurate.More widely applicable and requiring less data-gathering maybe, but there's already much more data on charms.Fair enough, Diane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LitterBug Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Can't you just count hit/misses with the weapon?If the hit of the weapon is a uniform distribution and we know the speed of the weapons --> won't we have accurate information? Of course, we're not accounting for things like overkill, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Overkill isn't hard to account for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Can't you just count hit/misses with the weapon?If the hit of the weapon is a uniform distribution and we know the speed of the weapons --> won't we have accurate information? Of course, we're not accounting for things like overkill, etcCounting hits/misses works, you just need to get quite a lot of counts done. There already is a lot of data on crims charm rates though, as that's the only thing most people cba writing down. Overkill isn't hard to account for provided you're only comparing two setups, as you have to run quite a lot of calculations for each setup. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Gui, Add, Button, gHit x2 y2 w70 h50 , Hit Gui, Add, Button, gMiss x72 y2 w70 h50 , Miss Gui +alwaysontop +ToolWindow Gui, Show, w144 h54, Hit/Miss return F1:: Hit: Hit++ Total++ return F2:: Miss: Miss++ Total++ return F10:: Gui 2: Add, Text, x2 y2 w30 h20 , Hits: Gui 2: Add, Edit, x38 y2 w40 h20 , %Hit% Gui 2: Add, Text, x2 y22 w34 h20 , Misses: Gui 2: Add, Edit, x38 y22 w40 h20 , %Miss% Gui 2: Add, Text, x2 y42 w30 h20 , Total: Gui 2: Add, Edit, x38 y42 w40 h20 , %Total% Gui 2: Show, w112 h75, Data return GuiClose: ExitApp Whoever wants to collect hit/miss data can use this. It'll make it much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lose No Hope Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'll end up finding their slash and stab defense rolls when I get back to my slayer data collecting. That may be awhile before I do it though. [hide]unbinding green's kidneys for ltk's heartdo you farm guam like me sir ltk[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Delu Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Why would you collect slash rather than crush? If we had stab and crush we would be able to compare zs, ss, maul, and rapier. Unless there is a slash weapon that could compare with those I don't see the point. 2496 total achieved June 30, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lose No Hope Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 because I'm collecting slash and stab data on all slayer monsters. [hide]unbinding green's kidneys for ltk's heartdo you farm guam like me sir ltk[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Delu Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 because I'm collecting slash and stab data on all slayer monsters. Well that makes sence.. for monsters that you slash and stab against. Wouldn't it make sence to make an exception for waterfiends? 2496 total achieved June 30, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lose No Hope Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 fair enough [hide]unbinding green's kidneys for ltk's heartdo you farm guam like me sir ltk[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulli23 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Can't you just count hit/misses with the weapon?If the hit of the weapon is a uniform distribution and we know the speed of the weapons --> won't we have accurate information? Of course, we're not accounting for things like overkill, etcCounting hits/misses works, you just need to get quite a lot of counts done. There already is a lot of data on crims charm rates though, as that's the only thing most people cba writing down. Overkill isn't hard to account for provided you're only comparing two setups, as you have to run quite a lot of calculations for each setup.Problem is: with the differences you're looking here you have to be carefull on "crimson rate / hour". It would only work if you are close to the "standard" with maul. - Or do the double test (maul + rapier) as 1 person. First they came to fishingand I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing Then they came to the yewsand I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews Then they came for the oresand I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LitterBug Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Can't you just count hit/misses with the weapon?If the hit of the weapon is a uniform distribution and we know the speed of the weapons --> won't we have accurate information? Of course, we're not accounting for things like overkill, etcCounting hits/misses works, you just need to get quite a lot of counts done. There already is a lot of data on crims charm rates though, as that's the only thing most people cba writing down. Overkill isn't hard to account for provided you're only comparing two setups, as you have to run quite a lot of calculations for each setup. Wut? I don't really know all that much about data calculators but, from a purely statistical standpoint - Counting hit/misses are going to be much better then counting charms. If we use the same stats - no pray/ovl/etc, and a predefined p1 (probability that a rapier hits) and p2 (probability that a maul hits) - you wouldn't need more then a couple of hundred of hits.Although this may not be very fun to calculate - just one or two people collecting one sample of 500 each could easily draw conclusions. For charms - you're going to count only crimsons I presume (or have a huge anova test for gold/green/crimson/blue - but this induces a lot more error)a.) The difference in #of crimsons is going to be very minimal compared to the total number of crimsonsFrom Nattylight, the avg crimsons per hour seem to go from 200-250.With a difference of 10-15 crimsons, you're only seeing a 5% differenceb.) A lot of the difference in charm drops can be attributed to proportion to charm dropc.) You're assuming that the kill rate is constant per trip (you're equally focused, putting the same amount of effort, etc)d.) You're going to need A LOT of different people's information If somebody can provide me with rough estimates of how accurate the maul/rapier is - I can calculate some stuff to provide a # of hit splats that one should gather to draw an accurate conclusion. EDIT:Also, it seems that you'll only find the DPS rate which may be different from the actual kill rate.I.e, you lose a lot less turns grabbing charms inbetween hits with a maul then a rapier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Squab Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The point being made was that if you go looking for it, you can find a large amount of logged WF trips where the only data given is only really the charms from the trip and the time. Using charms requires only finding already existing data, whereas counting hits/misses require you to actually GO to WFs and count the hits/misses. I don't think anyone thinks that crims is actually BETTER data then hits/misses, it's just that the crims data is already there. I'd like to point out:If somebody can provide me with rough estimates of how accurate the maul/rapier is - I can calculate some stuff to provide a # of hit splats that one should gather to draw an accurate conclusion. I don't think anyone can actually give you that data; you can either hope someone is willing to go collect the data for you (in which case said person will probably do the calucations themselves) or go collect it yourself. The crims data is likely the only data that someone will have recorded and be able to give you. Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them meBuying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupineThe only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it. Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Squab covered it, I know quite well that dps data would be preferrable but until such data is available you got to use what you got :). I'm pretty sure Nattylight didn't give you charms/hr but charms/trip there, for 2 hour (or 2 unicorn) trips. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xat Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 One 30 minute test is nowhere near reliable enough to say one weapon is better then another. Make it around 10+ hour long test and you'll have conclusive results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th e Doctor Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 So at 90 att 92 str and 84 defense would a rapier definitivly be better than a sara sword/zspear? Armadyl Drops : 4 Hilts; 3 Chestplates; 2 Chainskirts; 1 Helmet; 1 Buckler; 2 Shard 1; 2 Shard 2; 1 Shard 3Nex : 1 Zaryte BowKalphite King : 1 Drygore Rapier ; 1 Drygore Longsword : 1 Drygore Offhand Rapier : 1 Drygore Offhand Longsword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issildur Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Is anyone collecting data on Goliath gloves vs WFs? I have the results of one 37 minute trip, but it's woefully skewed with dreadnip use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That_Brown_Kid Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 i use rapier here only because i dont have a crush alternative that defeats rapier in dps. it works well for me :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerfrog Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 I think when i get 99 attack i'll try to get some actual data, using ovls and piety at all times. I need to get some charms anyway :D I'm glad this thread got so much interest but it's a shame no one has tried collecting data to verify if the rapier is a contender or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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