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Gold Dupe Glitch...


Kesleri

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Apparently there is alot of panic selling going on at the moment in fear that Jagex actually manages to remove the wealth added into the game via this glitch. Atleast rares seem to crash hard now. Which is good of course, considering how badly their prices got manipulated.

If the stories are true (or if the stories are believed to be true, thus being self-fulfilling), it could have easily been that Jagex didn't actually do anything significant enough to address the problem, and that the paranoia managed to resolve the issue by itself.

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To be perfectly honest I don't think the abusers should have been banned. Rolled back for sure, (not that they'd have cared I guess) but it's Jagex's fault that the bug exists. You can't blame other people for the fact that you did a bad job and allowed a vast, game breaking, economy ruining bug into the game.

 

You know from a game design perspective cash is a very minor detail. Really such bugs can happen & no one will ever test all problems with cash like this. Non unit bug testing apart from standard use is very rare & only done to critical places. You're basically looking at paying 10 QA people to catch a bug once a year. I'm sorry but I as a player do not wish that most of my money flows to people doing such tests. I much rather have them spent money on developing new content.

It is also the magic of numbers: you're looking here at millions of people playing the game for several years between game breaking bugs. - That's a lot of man-hours that a QA would have to spent for.

 

Really this is like saying it is common sense to write viri; they abuse bugs and instead of reporting it to microsoft you'll just keylog a company for information. It's morally wrong - and people who are even sympathizing with this are for me disgusting, really I hope you'll change before I have to work together with you.

 

You're aware that most of these bugs are found by the same handful of people, right?

 

How about this: Jagex needs to spend money to look for bugs. The people who find these glitches GAIN money from them. There comes a point in software testing where you have to say it's good enough, because you've found all the bugs you realistically can, short of increasing the Q&A budget significantly.

 

Also, if these bugs are found by the same handful of people (which I believe,) these people are obviously professional bug "testers." They make a living off it if the amount of money people think they made is even 1/10 of what estimates say. They're very skilled and they spend plenty of time at it. I'd be willing to bet that this group of people is probably better at bug testing then the average bug tester in, say, most game companies. (Certainly Jagex, but then people just bash Jagex saying they have a crappy Q&A team.)

 

Note that the definition of "bug tester" I'm using in this post is someone who finds bugs. And between their skill at it and the fact that they make money doing it, I deem them professional.

 

---------------------------------

 

Now, the real flaw that Jagex has is that they don't have a detection system for people making money. Any person who makes a large amount of wealth sets off flags. Similarly for stuff like shard packs and other items that can hold a great deal of wealth. And a flag that goes off when a person gets like more then 2bil of an item or something. Then an automated system checks it out, sees if they did staking, pk'ing, etc. For pk or staking, make sure that whatever they earn is offset by someone losing something. Keep track of GE sales. Set up a system to basically realize "this person is merching" then set up a system to see if a person is selling an unlikely amount of stuff to the GE.

 

The GE detection thing seems a bit less straightforward to implement, but Jagex just needs like an hour long staff meeting to solve it. Maybe a few. Really shouldn't be that hard to have an automated system to detect wealth gain on this scale.

 

Apparently there is alot of panic selling going on at the moment in fear that Jagex actually manages to remove the wealth added into the game via this glitch. Atleast rares seem to crash hard now. Which is good of course, considering how badly their prices got manipulated.

If the stories or true (or if the stories are believed to be true, thus being self-fulfilling), it could have easily been that Jagex didn't actually do anything significant enough to address the problem, and that the paranoia managed to resolve the issue by itself.

 

Maybe Jagex said that they would remove wealth from the game so that people would be paranoid and think that they DID remove wealth, when they didn't, knowing that the paranoia would solve their problem anyways?

 

Yes I realize that Jagex obviously isn't smart enough for that, but I find the concept amusing.

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Actually I'd have to say that there's already (too) much money spent on QA. When was the last time a game breaking glitch occured before this? Penguin points I think? That's back in 2009 (or 2010?); And before that fallador massacre? That's 2006. Ow and party hat dupe before that - 2003 I think (at least before I started playing).

 

 

That's 1 game breaking bug every 3 years. I'm not sure how much KLOC runescape engine has; but that is not much. Only organizations like NASA can afford to give "practically" bug free code (17 bugs in the space shuttle systems were found, resulting in around 0.004 bugs / kloc) - but they pay $850 for a line of code.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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Actually I'd have to say that there's already (too) much money spent on QA. When was the last time a game breaking glitch occured before this? Penguin points I think? That's back in 2009 (or 2010?); And before that fallador massacre? That's 2006. Ow and party hat dupe before that - 2003 I think (at least before I started playing).

 

 

That's 1 game breaking bug every 3 years. I'm not sure how much KLOC runescape engine has; but that is not much. Only organizations like NASA can afford to give "practically" bug free code (17 bugs in the space shuttle systems were found, resulting in around 0.004 bugs / kloc) - but they pay $850 for a line of code.

 

The first Crucible dupe about a month ago.

 

Other glitches just off the top of my head that were game breaking:

DG rune/arrow dupe from Salt in the Wound

LS glitch w/ RoW for guaranteed drops

Dragon bolt dupe

µ crashing the game

You make it sound like running through a few level 87 monsters is hard which it really shouldn't be at your level.

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Actually I'd have to say that there's already (too) much money spent on QA. When was the last time a game breaking glitch occured before this? Penguin points I think? That's back in 2009 (or 2010?); And before that fallador massacre? That's 2006. Ow and party hat dupe before that - 2003 I think (at least before I started playing).

 

 

That's 1 game breaking bug every 3 years. I'm not sure how much KLOC runescape engine has; but that is not much. Only organizations like NASA can afford to give "practically" bug free code (17 bugs in the space shuttle systems were found, resulting in around 0.004 bugs / kloc) - but they pay $850 for a line of code.

 

Mate watch some of haxunits videos to enlighten yourself, there are other bug abusers that have exploited "game-breaking" bugs, those bugs I guess you don't know about

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Actually I'd have to say that there's already (too) much money spent on QA. When was the last time a game breaking glitch occured before this? Penguin points I think? That's back in 2009 (or 2010?); And before that fallador massacre? That's 2006. Ow and party hat dupe before that - 2003 I think (at least before I started playing).

 

 

That's 1 game breaking bug every 3 years. I'm not sure how much KLOC runescape engine has; but that is not much. Only organizations like NASA can afford to give "practically" bug free code (17 bugs in the space shuttle systems were found, resulting in around 0.004 bugs / kloc) - but they pay $850 for a line of code.

 

Mate watch some of haxunits videos to enlighten yourself, there are other bug abusers that have exploited "game-breaking" bugs, those bugs I guess you don't know about

 

So what; 5 game breaking bugs per 1000 lines of code is considered amazing - that's what you see in OS kernels.. In normal application, especially as fast as gaming, development you're talking around 15-25 breaking bugs per kLOC. As I said I have no idea how big rs is nowadays, nor how much each update involves; but consider that before you make those statements. Do you really wish to pay 850 dollar for a single line of code? Than each update would cost around 100 000 for the code alone.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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How can you claim there's too much spent on QA when you don't even know how much is spent there to begin with?

 

I agree with pretty much all other points, since they're pretty reasonable and rational. No, we can't expect bug-free code. That said, this wasn't even an obscure method of duping, it was pretty much normal function.

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All these bugs have been caused by the money pouch, the cannon dupe with money pouch release apparently was doable in mtk, though no proof of that.

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Apparently there is alot of panic selling going on at the moment in fear that Jagex actually manages to remove the wealth added into the game via this glitch. Atleast rares seem to crash hard now. Which is good of course, considering how badly their prices got manipulated.

 

If I am you, I wont call this panic.

This is the best opportunity, ever!

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@Sir_Squab its not like Jagex is capable of finding these bugs before they happen because they typically involve very obscure things in certain parts of the game taken and used in obscure ways in other parts of the game. The best Jagex can do is pull another Jacmob and hire Roy (or ifh ;))

 

An example of why Jagex cant solve these things is:

 

A player like Roy is looking in year 06 quests and looking for very specific flaws that an average player or Jagex employee wouldn't consider a problem - and isn't a problem in the context of that quest. This abuser would then figure out how to get that item/feature/effect out of the quest to maybe somewhere like duel arena and while dueling it makes crazy things happen, like maybe invincibility or forcibly making them stake everything in their inventory. Maybe these crazy things are totally game breaking and players find out that terrible things are happening and get mad on forums at Jagex for not being able to predict such a catastrophe.

 

Or perhaps that same player has found a flaw built deeply into the game engine itself and knows roughly how to produce that flaw and generate terrible side effects with using it. They can then TELL JAGEX the flaw but Jagex would have such a hard time fixing it without producing even worse glitches that they dont even try and choose to just patch the methods of getting that flaw to produce.

 

With these game engine flaw exploits Jagex can and does have an excellent detection system and will patch the method you used very rapidly.

 

However, I can tell you something as stupid like a glitch that forces other players to stake everything in their inventory could be possible. It obviously hasn't been found yet, but how would Jagex know to patch something like this - or even look for it? They dont, they rely on spying on known glitchers and hoping that they will sell each other or post the glitch on youtube out out of rivalries.

 

Again without players like this working for Jagex (and getting paid higher then abuse would net them ;)) such things are unavoidable in rs. As someone that does QA for a software company irl, I can speak of such limitations with experience.

 

 

When you understand what Jagex IS AND ISN'T capable of (and blizzard either for that matter) you will stop being infinitely baffled when game breaking glitches occur.

 

Er, I don't know what posts you ready, but the last post I made I was trying to point out how Jagex can't realistically catch all these bugs. And why a dedicated group would be able to find glitches Jagex didn't. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

 

What I'm saying is, why don't they have a detection system for when people start making multiple billions? A person making multiple billions should raise flags.

 

Now, maybe it is hard to set up a detection system for players making that kind of money. If so, I'd like an explanation on why it is so.

Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.
[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]

my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them me

Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue.

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The damage would have already been done if you set up detection systems post gain. Why would Jagex be weary to avoid some adding escrow (as in taking the gold into temporary storage until its verified that it was gained legitimately) into the regular game should be obvious. So short of adding something like that which in itself can end up being abused it is very hard for Jagex to work on prevention. With detection it becomes easy to erase trade records (which Jagex already keeps) using deep rooted flaws in-game and transfer to accounts on foreign mac addresses/ip's.

 

Basically prevention is impossible and detection is technically impossible (currently) unless someone messes up bad.

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