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Indian-American Woman wins Miss America


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I am a product of immigrant run amok. My father is a Pashtun by origin, but his family emigrated to Canada from Brazil, and prior to that they resided in Trinidad, where they had originally been transferred as slaves from what is now Northern Pakistan/Southern Afghanistan.

 

My mother is of Italian descent.

 

Both my parent were born in Canada and if you ask them, or me, what my nationality is, we all say "Canadian".

 

That is, until the FIFA World Cup is on -- then all bets are off ... :rolleyes:

 

:lol:

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hyphenated stuff is pretty much the best way atm to display the complex relations w/people and their ancestry and what cultures they more identify with and stuff. just call people what they identify as, it's not really that big a deal.

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The key word is "they", not "you".

 

It's perfectly fine if you identify yourself with a certain hyphenated name, but it's quite a different issue when it is forced upon you, especially if it is the wrong hyphenated name.

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It's an immensely complicated issue. What defines someone's nationality? Skin colour? Cultural origins? Whether they've lived in country Y for X years?

 

Take my example: I was born in Liverpool, in the United Kingdom. My father is British, my mother was Irish (by birthplace) before she passed away. I've been to Ireland only once, as a toddler. Legally, I'm entitled to hold a British and an Irish passport concurrently. On forms which ask about about my nationality, I describe myself where possible as "British of Irish descent", the inference being that I define myself as more British than Irish, but not totally of British origin.

 

My younger brother, in similar circumstances (except for not having visited Ireland at all) defines himself as "British-Irish", the argument being that since one parent was British and the other parent was Irish, he's as much Irish as he is British.

 

Really... who can prove either of us wrong? The arguments are so complicated by conflicts and war, and immigration, and culture, extending throughout a millennium of Anglo-Irish history. Surely the best option is to have a laissez-faire attitude and allow us to define ourselves personally.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would waste time, at taxpayers' expense, trying to prove someone fits nicely into a box labelled "American", or "Canadian", or "German", or whatever, when it's silly to assume that an individual's self-defined nationality is dependent on the same factors as everyone else.

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I'm not sure why anyone would waste time, at taxpayers' expense, trying to prove someone fits nicely into a box labelled "American", or "Canadian", or "German", or whatever, when it's silly to assume that an individual's self-defined nationality is dependent on the same factors as everyone else.

 

* insert inevitable joke here about "needing a long-form birth certificate that's not from Kenya" *

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Not to nitpick, but Persian is a ethnic group in itself. Arab and Persians are two distinct groups. Muslims are religious, whereas a Persian could be atheist.

 

Many old world countries are founded by ethnic lines: Hungary, Poland, Persia, Japan, Germany, etc. They're all their own ethnic and national identities. I see no problem with a Mexican identifying themselves as Mexican to Hispanic. Latin America is a big and diverse place, after all.

 

However, I do agree with the flag waving. Especially during immigration marches! Wanting to become an American citizen while waving a Hispanic country flag is idiotic.

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I am a mexican-american (irony incoming) who agrees with that statement though. If you identify with a nation and love that nation, go back to it. I see mexicans who fly the mexican flag in their yards and I've always found that irratating because if you have such nationalism for that nation by all means live in it and see how much you still like it.

 

Now if someone indentified as a latino-american I would have no problems with them.

 

If someone identified as an persian american, I would say go back to iran - but if they indetified as a middle eastern american thats fine, or a muslim american that is too.

 

 

 

Racial groups, geographic groups, religious groups that denote a persons origins or values are fine with me, nation groups are not.

What you seem to be advocating is a warped sense of national purity. "Love it or get out." That's a very dangerous sentiment, with respect, and it's a slogan that has been used in various forms by military dictatorships throughout the 20th Century.

 

It comes down to that most fundamental and basic of human questions: Who, or what, am I? If my family's national origins lie in a place somewhere other than where I live, but I still subscribe to the values of the country I'm currently standing in, where's the harm in saying "I am a citizen of where I'm currently living, but my descendents come from another country"? Where's the harm in saying you're Indian American (referring to American citizens of Indian ancestry rather than indigenous Americans)?

 

I just don't see the value in beating a man's sense of self out of him, because his sense of self somehow offends others who don't share that same identity, nor do I see any pragmatic reasoning as to how that process makes the social fabric of a nation stronger, rather than weaker.

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"This is america"

 

.... I wonder how they'd take it if an American Indian won the competition instead

 

http://xkcd.com/84/

 

 

 

I agree they're being stupid, but a few cherry picked ignorant tweets do not represent the mindset of the majority of the United States.

Yes, but this is the internet. Stereotyping is all we do here.

 

 

I just love that line.

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your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

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I've always found it interesting that british people call themselves irish-brits or welsh-brits, etc. but you don't see germans calling themselves prussians, etc.

I'm pretty sure you do :P. Certainly Bavarians, Berliners and other 'cool' areas, also certainly the east-west distinction especially in older Germans. Don't forget the German bundesländer are similar to the US states in terms of powers - unless a task has been given specifically to the federal government (foreign affairs, military), it is a matter for the bundesländer. Some of the names might be a bit long for casual speech though, so maybe they'd be using nicknames or other allusions that we don't get. You certainly see regional identity almost everywhere.

 

Edit: Prussia also doesn't exist anymore.

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I've always found it interesting that british people call themselves irish-brits or welsh-brits, etc. but you don't see germans calling themselves prussians, etc.

I'm pretty sure you do :P. Certainly Bavarians, Berliners and other 'cool' areas, also certainly the east-west distinction especially in older Germans. Don't forget the German bundesländer are similar to the US states in terms of powers - unless a task has been given specifically to the federal government (foreign affairs, military), it is a matter for the bundesländer. Some of the names might be a bit long for casual speech though, so maybe they'd be using nicknames or other allusions that we don't get. You certainly see regional identity almost everywhere.

 

I agree with Ring_world on this and I think you've touched on it here. I believe people think it's cool to to do this type of thing. I've got an irish background but I'm British. I have no desire to call myself irish-brit to try to make myself more interesting. I'm just British, English specifically, and proud to be so. I could claim an irish passport but it's just nonsense. I'm British, first and foremost.

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But even then a lot of people maintain their culture for many generations....so it gets kind of complicated.

Example: I've never been to Italy and don't speak the language anymore, but I grew up with more of that culture than a purely American one and could probably get Italian citizenship, and so I identify as Italian-American. Am I wrong to do so? :razz:

 

It's not because it's "cool", it's a matter of identifying with the culture you know, in a country that was literally built on immigration.

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But even then a lot of people maintain their culture for many generations....so it gets kind of complicated.

Example: I've never been to Italy and don't speak the language anymore, but I grew up with more of that culture than a purely American one and could probably get Italian citizenship, and so I identify as Italian-American. Am I wrong to do so? :razz:

 

It's not because it's "cool", it's a matter of identifying with the culture you know, in a country that was literally built on immigration.

 

Wrong. People want to look more diverse these days because it's the thing to do, and for some reason they think they seem more interesting. It's just politically correct twaddle. I'm English, you're American and that's that.

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is 3 pages a new record for the time it takes a topic to devolve into he said she said nonsense

 

fwiw "politically correct" is the dumbest combination of two words in the english language, and the only people who are obsessed with it are those who are weirdly against it, and want something to whine about when they're rightfully called an arsehole.

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Wrong. People want to look more diverse these days because it's the thing to do, and for some reason they think they seem more interesting. It's just politically correct twaddle. I'm English, you're American and that's that.

On the one hand it's "political correctness", on the other hand it's "the cool thing to do".

 

I think you're living off buzzwords, and purposefully remaining ignorant to the points made, in all honesty. If you yourself choose to call yourself English, fine. But don't pretend to be empathizing with those who choose differently. You can't possibly know what their reasons are.

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Wrong. People want to look more diverse these days because it's the thing to do, and for some reason they think they seem more interesting. It's just politically correct twaddle. I'm English, you're American and that's that.

On the one hand it's "political correctness", on the other hand it's "the cool thing to do".

 

I think you're living off buzzwords, and purposefully remaining ignorant to the points made, in all honesty. If you yourself choose to call yourself English, fine. But don't pretend to be empathizing with those who choose differently. You can't possibly know what their reasons are.

 

 

Plain "American" shouldn't be reserved solely for whites, while people of color get labeled with their race. That includes black Americans, yellow Americans, and brown Americans. Excuse me, the PC terms are African-American, Asian-American, and Latino-American. Somehow making that distinction isn't racist at all.

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I'm leaving the page as is for now, but I want to mention that telling people what they think is not appreciated here. Conjecture is fine assuming it is otherwise within the rules, but putting words in peoples mouths, or stating opinions as facts, is terrible debate etiquette and potentially against the rules when it disrupts a thread.

 

 

Moving along, I've been thinking a bit about my own stance, and I have found myself staring at a fairly large bias in my world view that I am having no small trouble working around. My general stance is pro-homogeneity, that is, the belief that clinging to differences creates unnecessary discord that need not otherwise exist. I have three problems maintaining this.

 

My first is that, being an English only speaker, I am part of a cultural supermajority in my area of the world. If all the cultures were to totally let go and absorb each other, nothing would really change, at least not for me. The majority culture, like the english language, is already pretty loose on maintaining very specific traditions from one generation to the next, and adept at stealing bits of other cultures and adapting them (or straight up integrating them) into itself. That is, by and large, the english culture has already plundered everything of interest from say, the french community (the second largest here), and the biggest change from a cultural blending would be the near total destruction of the french language (but we will always have the word 'toque'). That is, my cultural identity is not 'threatened', and given my total lack of desire to visit places where English is not the dominant language, it's not likely to be in my foreseeable future.

 

As a related problem, what pieces of culture I actually put importance on is kind of wishy washy with me anyway. If I knew other languages, I'm sure I would have a favourite, but I assume it would be much like switching between computer languages, or even 'changing faces', changing the way you act around other people. There are certain holidays I would like to always be celebrating, but how I celebrate is up for debate. There are a couple movies I like to watch for Christmas, but I am not particularly concerned with going to a specific church (or a church at all), or having it at my house, or even in the country. Clapping becomes a rude gesture? Fine, I won't clap anymore. My point being, what is important to me is not only something I would have some trouble itemizing, but entirely subjective. What is important to me is not going to be important to other people, and vice versa. If I can't adequately put myself in my own shoes and figure out what really is important to me, how can I expect that I could do any better for someone else. A great example is that my personality tends toward a focus on being invisible I want you to believe that I am just like you, so that I can be accepted and left alone to do my own thing. Other people loathe the idea of blending in, either they want to be noticed, or they refuse to bow to the pressure of others.

 

My third issue is something I had not given enough thought, which is that, while a more homogeneous population might seem to have less to fight about, it's also much less equipped to deal with differences that do come up, and there will always be differences. Even if we all looked alike, there would still be political and theological differences, and I think a culture that is more varied is more likely to be the one that accepts it, rather than going all oppression on you. That is, the fights wouldn't be fewer, just different. And really thinking about it, if I were totally immersed in a totally different culture, I think that even if I had to go it alone, I would make sure that my life still had a bit of the old culture left in it. Being me, it's something I wouldn't display, but it would happen. A way to keep yourself grounded.

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Wrong. People want to look more diverse these days because it's the thing to do, and for some reason they think they seem more interesting. It's just politically correct twaddle. I'm English, you're American and that's that.

On the one hand it's "political correctness", on the other hand it's "the cool thing to do".

 

I think you're living off buzzwords, and purposefully remaining ignorant to the points made, in all honesty. If you yourself choose to call yourself English, fine. But don't pretend to be empathizing with those who choose differently. You can't possibly know what their reasons are.

Plain "American" shouldn't be reserved solely for whites, while people of color get labeled with their race. That includes black Americans, yellow Americans, and brown Americans. Excuse me, the PC terms are African-American, Asian-American, and Latino-American. Somehow making that distinction isn't racist at all.

Is skin colour the only factor which influences and affects a person's ethnicity?

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Is skin colour the only factor which influences and affects a person's ethnicity?

 

My point is that skin color has little to do with ethnicity, but other people don't see it that way.

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Is skin colour the only factor which influences and affects a person's ethnicity?

 

My point is that skin color has little to do with ethnicity, but other people don't see it that way.

 

Well, learn something new every day. I've never bothered to look up the definition of ethnicity before, I always assumed that it was the proper term for race, which would be the slang form. I suppose that sort of speaks volumes about the way it's normally used if I could get this far in life thinking the words were synonyms, when they have nothing to do with each other. I suppose that leads into a question I have now, which is, is there another word for race (that isn't breed), or is that actually the proper term? It just seems like a concept that should have a word all of it's own, and the closest I can think of are breed (which implies a human hand in it's creation, and will also get you lynched if you use it that way), and stock, which also has multiple meanings. If not, seems like English should be getting out there and stealing someone else's word for it.

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My general stance is pro-homogeneity, that is, the belief that clinging to differences creates unnecessary discord that need not otherwise exist.

 

I agree. However, you're not giving people the option of portraying themselves as somehow diverse from the general population. Doesn't go down well with some.

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Perhaps I was not entirely clear. Pro homogeneity is my gut reaction, born from an emotional feeling and backed by the most cursory passing of logical reasoning, something I hadn't really thought to question until I tried to defend it, and realized I couldn't. There is the whole social expression in, which I only briefly touched on during the bit about why my own viewpoint is quite biased, but also that the logic behind the sentiment is deeply flawed.

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Perhaps I was not entirely clear. Pro homogeneity is my gut reaction, born from an emotional feeling and backed by the most cursory passing of logical reasoning, something I hadn't really thought to question until I tried to defend it, and realized I couldn't. There is the whole social expression in, which I only briefly touched on during the bit about why my own viewpoint is quite biased, but also that the logic behind the sentiment is deeply flawed.

It is only “natural” to want everyone to follow the same norms, rules, regulations and to have the same opinions. It’s that aspect which, in my opinion, is one of the building blocks that makes up the social contract upon which Western society is based.
That said, not everyone is born into or derived from Western society, and to ask everyone who immigrates into Western society to immediately drop whatever social conduct they previously held upon their immediate arrival across whatever perceived border is deemed to exist is, well, silly. It will takes generation before such people divert from their cultural norms.
Take a look at what has happened in, say, the U.S. throughout its historical immigration. Millions of people from all over the world went to the U.S. and most of them, upon arrival, overwhelmed with the shock of the journey and by the sheer magnitude of their respective port of call, merely fell back into whatever ethnic cultural position that existed for them in their old country. In fact, many of them still do.
And I am not only talking about people of Middle Eastern origin – look at the Italians, Irish, Ukrainians, Russians – all of these ethnicities still celebrate their own heritage and proudly display it openly – specifically on their respective days of cultural significance.
And don’t forget folks, that it was only 80 years ago, or so, that there were areas in U.S. cities – and Canadian cities – where people of certain European descent were not allowed to conduct business or purchase houses in certain neighbourhoods.

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