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Recent Bot Discussions - A Jagex Response


Miss Lioness

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Hi Everyone,

I’d like to offer some commentary around recent bot bans so that everyone can clearly understand our position and have the full facts to hand regarding the current ban situation. Much of the discussion you may have read on social media and our own forums relates to a couple of specific recent situations. We’re not perfect, sometimes we do make mistakes as we’re human – thanks for letting us know to anyone who genuinely feels we’ve got it wrong, but generally, we want to keep as many players playing as possible – it’s as much against our interests as yours to ban players for no reason, and that’s what we try to do in an extremely complex game environment.

It was really unfortunate that we banned a particular player who wasn’t cheating at all. We’ve put that right of course and the player is happily back in game. In this case, the player was a very effective and highly productive RuneScape player – and their game play was so efficient that a member of staff interpreted the data our systems produced about the account as macro use. Now before you start thinking ‘well I’m efficient will I get banned’ – the context of this situation is that this account is one of only two other accounts that we have ever seen play so efficiently that they look like a bot, and we have been looking at this data for years now, so it really is incredibly unlikely that anyone will ever appear this way to us again. Naturally we are not happy with even that small risk though, so we have (for now) stopped applying manual staff bans so we can conduct a thorough review of our macro ban processes to ensure they are robust moving forward.

The other incident that is being discussed relates to a number of players complaining on our Forums and social media due to a recent mass ban for bot use. This ban was designed to specifically target bot users based on data and system analysis information that we collate on an ongoing basis and I can confirm that this wave of bans centred specifically on RSBot users. I should also add that we have banned, and will continue to ban, players for bot use both daily, and periodically. Some of those people banned may feel the ban is unfair because they may have only used RSBot once, or twice – RSBot, or the use of any other bot program, is against the Rules of RuneScape, and we will take action if players use them – even if only once or twice.

The accuracy of these recent bans is 100% - all those who were banned used RSBot – we checked them manually, and we remain confident that our detection systems are up to scratch. On other bot bans, just to be sure, every day we sample and verify a number of bans and we will continue to apply solid checking and analysis of our heuristics before deploying anything that can lead to a player being banned. 

Finally, I wanted to touch on offence appeals – I’ve read a lot in the past few days about people finding it hard to appeal, not getting a response to their appeal and so on. The truth is I agree – our current offence appeal system is not fit for purpose and I have been working with some of the guys here at Jagex to get some changes to the offence system implemented. We openly discussed this in the Offence System Q&A back in October (Quick find code: 103-104-1-65498132). Right now I’m not 100% sure what any changed system will look like or when we may release it – but throughout the project (which we have been working on for some months now) I have retained some key principles that must exist in any new offence appeal system we use.

These are:

1. It must be clear whether an offence can be appealed or not
2. If an offence can be appealed – submitting an appeal must be a simple process
3. We must offer players more ways to explain their side of the story in any appeal that can be made
4. We must promptly review and answer every single offence appeal that is submitted

I hope that provides some context around the recent bans, what we are doing to make sure that bans remain accurate and also how we are looking to make things much better for those players who wish to appeal offences in the future.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this clarifies some questions.

Mod Kelvin
RuneScape Customer Services Manager

 

 

Post link: http://[Use Quick Find Code]/a=13/c=rQ9jd8I5x3A/sl=0/[Please Use QuickFind Code]?14,15,968,65539489

 


 

Due the recent rise of claims of 'false' bans, with a few cases been an actual false ban, Mod Kelvin (who wrote the post above) felt the need to address the issue. For many fellow runescapers, the main issue was the 'thick wall' that exists for people to appeal a ban the core of the issue and wanted more direct contact with Jagex. As a result, the above post appeared earlier today.

 

Now I am wanting to hear the opinions of the people who visit these forums with their stance on this matter. I have seen some posts here and there about it and on the forums and other off-sites it is really a hot topic.

 

[spoiler=Reminder of the Forum Rules regarding bots]

1.1 - Breaking or encouraging others to break any of Jagex's rules

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

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No Jagex, it's emphatically not clear at all. In fact, it directly contradicts your own wiki page!

 

 

If your account has been permanently banned for macro use, gold farming, account hijacking, real world trading or any other reason, it means that we deem the rule-breaking serious enough to remove the account from RuneScape forever. We do not process appeals, tickets or emails about these type of bans. We will not enter into debate about these type of bans on our forums, Twitter, Facebook or through any other method of communication.

"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

lGxorje.png

 

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I don't visit the RSOF so I hadn't heard about this particular incident, but I did notice that the dozen or so bots I reported daily in Edgeville bank disappeared after many weeks, so I had a feeling there was a mass ban. I was beginning to worry that bots were gonna outnumber humans again.

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Found the person, I already knew who it was just needed to find a picture of it!

dzPPg.png

 

Also below is a post of another falsely banned player (though this was last february):

dAx7y.png

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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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Stunning... simply stunning.  I think I'll watch this thread for a bit, then move along. :o

 

~D. V. "I never saw this coming." Devnull

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tifuserbar-dsavi_x4.jpg and normally with a cool mind.

(Warning: This user can be VERY confusing to some people... And talks in 3rd person for the timebeing due to how insane they are... Sometimes even to themself.)

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No Jagex, it's emphatically not clear at all. In fact, it directly contradicts your own wiki page!

 

 

If your account has been permanently banned for macro use, gold farming, account hijacking, real world trading or any other reason, it means that we deem the rule-breaking serious enough to remove the account from RuneScape forever. We do not process appeals, tickets or emails about these type of bans. We will not enter into debate about these type of bans on our forums, Twitter, Facebook or through any other method of communication.

 

 

Good job they did not say it is clear then they said the project they are working on to improve appeals needs to make it clear.

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Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

 

A system without false positives, especially as difficult as botwatch would be nearly impossible. Of course this shouldn't have happened, but we don't know the numbers. We don't know how many bots they banned. If there are only 2-3 false positives within 1.000.000 bans than I think it is a good system.

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

 

A system without false positives, especially as difficult as botwatch would be nearly impossible. Of course this shouldn't have happened, but we don't know the numbers. We don't know how many bots they banned. If there are only 2-3 false positives within 1.000.000 bans than I think it is a good system.

 

 

Also it should be noted it was NOT a system that trapped these players.

 

It was a HUMAN reviewing data.

 

Plus they said they have only ever seen 2 or 3 players efficient enough to look like bots to human review AND he only got investigated due to bot reports.

It's not like this is some glaring flaw in the system that is hitting hundreds of innocents.

 

It's 1 player who is part of a tiny, single digit, set of players efficient enough for their play data to look bot-like without very very very close scrutiny who only got looked at due to reports of botting and then was banned by human error because the data looks so bot like until it was looked at extremely closely.

 

I'd call that a pretty respectable margin of error.

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Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

 

A system without false positives, especially as difficult as botwatch would be nearly impossible. Of course this shouldn't have happened, but we don't know the numbers. We don't know how many bots they banned. If there are only 2-3 false positives within 1.000.000 bans than I think it is a good system.

 

 

Also it should be noted it was NOT a system that trapped these players.

 

It was a HUMAN reviewing data.

 

Plus they said they have only ever seen 2 or 3 players efficient enough to look like bots to human review AND he only got investigated due to bot reports.

It's not like this is some glaring flaw in the system that is hitting hundreds of innocents.

 

It's 1 player who is part of a tiny, single digit, set of players efficient enough for their play data to look bot-like without very very very close scrutiny who only got looked at due to reports of botting and then was banned by human error because the data looks so bot like until it was looked at extremely closely.

 

I'd call that a pretty respectable margin of error.

 

 

I agree here, however it must still be made possible to either see a sort of review whilst still not revealing how BotWatch works or a contact should be issued.

 

Also I am not sure if they can see the severity of the botting, but I do feel this need to be weighted in. I don't mean the account should go unpunished if the person botted for <1 min. It needs the be punished regardless. However I feel that if someone bots for like (for example) 5 minutes then realises it is not how that person wants to play etc. and refrains from any further botting from then on, a minor penalty should suffice for like a two week ban. Currently said player would get a permanent ban instantly, and I feel that is wrong. Of course it then can be argued, well then Jagex would condone botting for the first time, and that is not true, as Jagex too realizes it is possible to learn from mistakes.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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^I think it is pretty clear that botting will give you a perma-ban, so they are warned enough. Also that means that they would have to implement a system that tracks the time you use the bot and then gives you a ban according to that time, which is much less efficient than simply ban when a bot is found. I would agree with you if botting wasn't such a big issue, but sadly it is.

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Very different philosophy from when I saw Mod MMG (I think) on a stream strongly arguing to give players another chance because it was so easy to get mislead and drawn into cheating blah blah. The main thing is they need to be sure of who's cheating...

"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

---

 

 

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Also just remembered that one of our fellow forummers also got banned and subsequently got unbanned. That is another case just right there.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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Wow, that's quite intriguing honestly. The issues with bots can be argued back & forth but all-in-all if you're going to bot (whether it's for a few minutes or for a few hours) you're still cheating - you're using some unfair advantage that heightens your account to a new level (so-to-speak) that can't be competed without breaking the rules same as you. Therefore the punishment should be the same all around, you know the risks so to attempt it for even a few minutes could end the same way as if you did it for hours. At least that's my opinion, and as far as an innocent person being banned, well it happens, but as long as we aren't seeing a large percentage of innocent people being banned it shouldn't be too big of a deal. 

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An interesting read and situation.

 

Regarding consideration to the time someone spends botting, I would agree that someone who very quickly decides what they are doing is wrong might deserve leniency. It is however my impression that botwatch is incapable of monitoring all players at all times and instead samples at random or is otherwise directed to monitor specific players (as a result of bot reports). This would make it very difficult to tell if a situation was the first time someone had botted, or simply the first time they got caught, which I believe makes it difficult to extend leniency without creating environment where it's okay to bot as long as you have never been caught before.

 

Assuming everything they have revealed about this case is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I am not overly concerned. If botwatch failed to flag this player on its own, and only raised concern under the direction of reports where human error then led to a ban, then I am satisfied that the automated system is working exactly as it should, and that it is reasonable to expect that the procedures for human operators will need revision from time to time to deal with new circumstances as they come up.

 

As to Jagax improving their methods...I tend to take this kind of thing with a pinch of salt. I do however know that Jagex has made recent efforts to improve some of their backend systems, so I would conclude that at least for the moment they do indeed have resources available for this task, and can I think reasonably assume they are willing to put them to use on this task. I look forward to any improvement in their appeal system, and any clarity on pretty much any aspect of botting policy is always welcome, given how difficult accurate and uptodate information can prove to be to obtain (even for a major fansite).

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Efficiencyscape at it's peak. I'm amazed it sort of crosses over like this but I'm also not surprised that botwatch is derping, especially when I see Aviansie bots with 120 Range using rune Crossbows.

Popoto.~<3

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Well I remember times in which I would see bots everywhere, I haven't seen a bot in a while (but I am not to high leveled yet). And I play in fairly busy p2p worlds (most of the time 1000-1200 players). Also they seem to have banned lots of bots a month ago, because I would go up a few K in ranks for skills I got no XP in every day.

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Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

 

A system without false positives, especially as difficult as botwatch would be nearly impossible. Of course this shouldn't have happened, but we don't know the numbers. We don't know how many bots they banned. If there are only 2-3 false positives within 1.000.000 bans than I think it is a good system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I am wondering who that individual was that got banned by playing so efficient. Also I think lots (if not nearly all) of the complainers are actually persons who botted once or twice. 

 

I really wonder this as well. It ought to be a streamer, some high-ranked player or someone who is at least a little well known. 

Also, how can Jagex have bot systems who even have the potential to trap innocent but effective players in the net? That is just terrible design. And I say that as a developer myself.

 

A system without false positives, especially as difficult as botwatch would be nearly impossible. Of course this shouldn't have happened, but we don't know the numbers. We don't know how many bots they banned. If there are only 2-3 false positives within 1.000.000 bans than I think it is a good system.

 

 

Also it should be noted it was NOT a system that trapped these players.

 

It was a HUMAN reviewing data.

 

Plus they said they have only ever seen 2 or 3 players efficient enough to look like bots to human review AND he only got investigated due to bot reports.

It's not like this is some glaring flaw in the system that is hitting hundreds of innocents.

 

It's 1 player who is part of a tiny, single digit, set of players efficient enough for their play data to look bot-like without very very very close scrutiny who only got looked at due to reports of botting and then was banned by human error because the data looks so bot like until it was looked at extremely closely.

 

I'd call that a pretty respectable margin of error.

 

 

Maybe it is because I am Swedish and belong to one of the most risk-afraid populations of the world, but I really believe that a system like this must be as close to "absolutely risk free" as possible. If some people could get permanent bans just because they played efficiently then the systems (not only including the computer parts) needs to get redone. 

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I'd call 2 or 3 players out of millions of accounts that are only at risk if they happen to be reported and then reviewed by the humans who then make an error in judgement as close to absolutely risk free as any system could ever get that involves the potential for human error.

 

Thats like 1/6666th of a percent at risk (if you assume 2m accounts) and even then they are only at risk when they both get reported enough to be flagged AND the human reviewing the data makes an error in judgement.

 

Besides the "system" is this instance is NOTHING automated of computerised.

 

It is reports from human players triggering a review by human staff at Jagex.

Where they then look at a plain log of actions taken on the account.

 

The only "fault" in any "system" here is that the players are so efficient the log data of their action looks near identical to that produced by a bot unless subject to extreme scrutiny.

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But as they said, it's because these people were playing so efficiently that botwatch (and the JMod) mistook them for a bot. It's not like Little Timmy, playing an hour a day, should have to worry. Chances are that if someone is playing that efficiently, they'll be in the public radar. I doubt there are a large number of false bans out there that we haven't heard of.

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