fenrir321
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Posts posted by fenrir321
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One could also argue that the world economy in real life is also one unit since if you were to replace every currency in the world with one, uniform currency, I can almost guarantee you that bread in England would cost differently than bread in Africa even though they would have the same currency.
No they are very different things altogether. See below where your comments on RS being like a real economy are.
And the economies of several individual states are also very different. Economies share several trends, like supply and demand, but they are all unique. The world economy is a unique economy
But you can't use that model to assume that runescape is the same but on a smaller scale. One of the points in A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper is that something on a large scale does not necessarily work on a smaller scale and vice-versa (the example used in the book refers to how giant men with proportional body parts to ours would not stand because of the structure of the legs could not support the amount of weight.)
For obvious reasons, I never take evidence from wiki as fact. Again, read down.
I use wiki links a reference for better links. I have read the book, and it does say that. If you want an example, then why isn't there one person in charge of the country in the US? There's several people who vote democratically. But why so many? My school doesn't need that many people. Even if you take into account the ratios of authority to governed, if the country was large enough, then you'd need a third tier to govern the governors of the governed and so forth. You can't assume that something on a small scale will work on a large scale. Likewise, if we had three tiers of people in a school of 500, very little would get done in a small amount of time.
Therefore, you really can't say that runescape is a virtual economy; it is an economy.
It isn't because apart from rares there is no dependency. Anyone can go and max everything, get the items and the drops without any trade whatsoever. In theory apart from rares and bank space permitting, you could acquire everything. Its a virtual economy that we can exist without. Painful but it can be done. RL is much different.
I can learn to fish. I can learn to be completely self-sufficient like those guys in the colonial era. Therefore, we can live without a real world economy. The drawback is that everything would be changed to a snail's pace (which you said), just like if you were playing a single player game with no interaction. At some point, runescape would need an economy in order to grow with the expanding trade. Likewise, the settlers in Massachusetts would have discovered that if people specialized in jobs, then they could role in more money from trade.
We don't need an economy at the most basic level in both real life or runescape, but it behooves people to be able to do so.
On the next part of your response, I can't say for sure whether what you suggested is viable; I asked Jagex if they keep a trade record on every account a few years ago but they neither affirmed nor negated the question. I assume they do to a point since they would need to track RWT somehow. My only concern is the man power they have. Somehow, a j-mod would have to train a lvl x character, gain enough cash to be "legit", in order to fool the clan. Assuming they succeed, the mod would then proceed to have to do it again because the name would spread by word of mouth. Unless they botted (which would be so ironic, I'd laugh myself to death), I can't see any viable way to train those characters to lvl whatever and get the cash unless they played all day.
I do hope you're not suggesting that we paying customers pay Jagex to sit on their bums all day and play video games; that's our job :twisted: .
They could flag things like this if they really wanted to. They know the game mechanics and the algorithms to use. Even if they could not build a definitive version, they could certainly see whats happening with item prices when they rise beyond a certain limit in a certain time. It wouldn't be rocket science to see who is doing it. Again, would they want to? After all, its not in their best interests to ban a number of players for business reasons. Plus at this time it isn't against the rules, its just advised against doing it.
I'm assuming that "this" refers to price manipulation (it stumped me for a few seconds, so I'm just making sure). As I said above, the butterfly effect works constantly in an economy. Jagex is not all knowing and knows the exact mechanics of everything that enters the game. Hell, even Blizzard with all of their manpower still took about 5 years to get hunter mechanics down (and some people are now skeptical about the new focus system in patch 4.0) even though a hunter was one of their first classes. They are bound to overlook some things. For example, the obsidian necklace + obby sword combo gives more str exp per hour than a d scimmy. It was not in mainstream until a few months after tip.it put that tip in "Did you know?". The price climbed suddenly for a bit and then flattered out at a higher price.
This phenomenon can be explained with an S-Curve or a Bell Curve.
Certain things happen that go under the radar, and Jagex will sometimes be as much as a spectator as you or me. But no, it's not in their best interest business-wise to ban several people who are paying them money. On the flip-side, it is actually more beneficial in the long run because it will attract players who are responsible and not any random joe off the street. Jagex does not want a certain kind of customer, and customers who also don't want that certain kind of customer in their midst will applaud, join the game, and then advertise runescape through word of mouth.
That's what I'm theorizing in Jagex's reasoning. But the above paragraph is all speculation. The fact might be that Jagex does not perceive manipulation as a problem like they did when botting started up. Time will tell if they're right or wrong.
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Do you have any idea what the words on your response even mean? Not say, anybody who can read the English language can vomit out words like a parrot and make as much sense as you just did. This what your response means:
You first paragraph is the only relevant part of your post: the crown is an icon of superiority.If moderators don't want to carry the burden of being constantly harrassed by other players with questions and the like, then they can always return the badge for no penalty. But sadly, absolutely no player mod would want to do this because every player mod only cares about power and authority
Yep. If life is so hard then those poor, poor mods can always hand the crown back. Do they? No! Reason? You tell me.
And please, save the superiority attitude for those who care.
I have no superior attitude. I am frank, but not arrogant. And I know a few people who have been mods and accidentally eavesdropped on some people to know that some mods do hand back the crown.
That's what your response means. Your lack of detailed words regrettably leaves us readers to assume that you used "blanket" words like "all" or "every" or "none" or "nothing". Just for practicality and future reference, when you use those words, you are setting yourself up for failure unless you have the proof to back it up. All it takes is one person to prove you wrong. "But it's just one person..." Well, that one person just declared your whole response to be a pile of ignorance and negative stereotypes without them actually having to do anything except exist.
What crap. I've backed up my posts with evidence, so I'm sure you've read the right things, and *shock horror* I'm not the only one who thinks it. You're going to have to do a lot better than that. All my evidence is in this post, which includes Jagex themselves and some very peculiar answers from pmods. Wheres yours?
Be more specific; I don't feel like looking through 20 pages haphazardly without a table of contents. Steinbeck did that enough in the Grapes of Wrath. If you really care for your points and wish to defend them to the best of your ability, then at least give a page number if not post number to direct people to the transcript.
There's also a logical fallacy that deals with "It's true because one said so". It does not matter if Jagex is a perfect child and never lies; the act that they said so does not make the statement true; the statement is validated somewhere else. If you can direct me to the quotes you quoted, I would be very grateful to see what Jagex has to say on the matter, but the quote does not make that true. It merely increases the probability of the validity.
And just for another future reference, when you debate, you actively listen to the opposing argument and respond to everything to the best of your logical ability; defend your post if you believe you're right, and accept the contrary if you're wrong.
I do. When you come out with something to acknowledge, I'll do it.
In all seriousness, post a criterion or two that tells what makes something (to you) worthy of being acknowledged. Randox has a perfectly good, detailed response, and you merely summarized it instead of picking it apart like you did mine.
What you are doing, sir, is forcibly pushing your stereotype down our gullet without every giving a single thought to "heh, maybe he's right. Perhaps there are mods who don't think they're the bets thing since sliced bread and actually accept the duties of a pmod for the betterment of runescape." Regardless if a pmod has the exact same powers in reporting (aside from mutes), that silver crown is a status symbol. Just being a pmod can make players stop misbehaving without any action on the pmod's part.
No, you're entitled to disagree any time you want. Does that mean I have to agree? No, it doesn't. If you've read this post properly you will have already seen I have said there are a minority of mods who do the job properly. Now you admit the crown is a status symbol. How many you think would do the job without it?
If pmods find the crown such a burden they can always demod themselves. But alas, its losing power isn't it and they wouldn't want that.This sentence that you wrote lacks detail. I could add several "all"'s to the sentence and although it would be less palpable, it would mean exactly the same. I never said you couldn't disagree. When you take a very long response like Randox's and then ignore perhaps 80% of it to prove a point, many people (including myself) will say, "Wow, he's picking out the things that support his rant and ignoring the stuff that goes against it." Regardless if your were doing just that or for another reasonable reason, that's what the action says politically. When Hannibal was crossing through the alps and burned the estates, he skipped the head general's. Why? Well, that caused internal political discord, and the general had to prove his verity by selling the estate that was spared. I'm going to assume that you mean well; that assumption on my part was uncalled for and I apologize. In politics (which spans a wide range of topics, not constrained to just government), you have to choose your words carefully. And from where I'm standing, you say that in the other pages, you have acknowledged that there are a small minority of good mods, but with the statement I just quoted, that doesn't seem evident at all.
Off my small, relevant tangent: one could argue that everything is a status symbol. If I play runescape, I'm most likely a kid who can't afford other games or some adult that just wants to mess around without paying anything. If I play wow, I'm a nerd who is geeky or I am a crack addict who can't without WoW and would sell my soul to the devil for another month of membership. If I'm an American, I'm probably arrogant and boisterous. If I like anime and am American, I am (in my experience) either really nerdy and on the level of the generic, pimply fanboy who goes to every single convention about the subject or I like the style of porn (this one I find more prevalent amongst girls surprisingly).
I've basically described everyting about myself and the above stereotypes are not true about me. Well, I might be a geek, but doing sports counteracts that, right? :oops:
What does this have to do with status symbols? If you're a cop, chances are you are white, have average income, and can get your head in the air depending on how high you are on the totem pole. Now, the difference between a status symbol and a stereotype is that you can achieve a status symbol pretty easily (compared to "permanent" stereotypes that have to do with gender, race, or religion).
Therefore, since several if not every thing can be a status symbol, you can ignore the crown being a "status" symbol in some facets. It comes with power, but I'm sure that people that are corrupt want the power not the crown; the two are independent. Those people want the power and the luxury to flaunt it. If there were "invisible" mods, I think that even more people would want the power so as to "gank" "rule breakers".
To answer your final question, I theorize that some people would simply yell, "I'm a mod!" and then prove it by abusing their power or they would simply just brag about it and then ban people who would talk smack about them since the mod would be telling the truth. It would cause tremendous problems. But ignoring those problems, it would do more good since responsible mods would be able to talk with random people without being treated as a celebrity.
Again, I apologize for the rash assumption and am ing the text right now to show that I recant what I said.
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In reality, RS is a virtual economy that can be tracked and it doesn't rely on other economies, unlike RL, so the complexity is minimised. Jagex could put algorithms in place to flag sharp rises in items and analyze it to see whats causing it. This could be cross-referenced to accounts to see 'who' is doing it, and cross referenced again to see which clan chat they've been involved in i.e. smoking mills or something. Obviously the last part would give the most problems but I'll bet they could do it if they wanted to. Trouble is, do they want to?
One could also argue that the world economy in real life is also one unit since if you were to replace every currency in the world with one, uniform currency, I can almost guarantee you that bread in England would cost differently than bread in Africa even though they would have the same currency.
But you can't use that model to assume that runescape is the same but on a smaller scale. One of the points in A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper is that something on a large scale does not necessarily work on a smaller scale and vice-versa (the example used in the book refers to how giant men with proportional body parts to ours would not stand because of the structure of the legs could not support the amount of weight.)
Therefore, you really can't say that runescape is a virtual economy; it is an economy.
On the next part of your response, I can't say for sure whether what you suggested is viable; I asked Jagex if they keep a trade record on every account a few years ago but they neither affirmed nor negated the question. I assume they do to a point since they would need to track RWT somehow. My only concern is the man power they have. Somehow, a j-mod would have to train a lvl x character, gain enough cash to be "legit", in order to fool the clan. Assuming they succeed, the mod would then proceed to have to do it again because the name would spread by word of mouth. Unless they botted (which would be so ironic, I'd laugh myself to death), I can't see any viable way to train those characters to lvl whatever and get the cash unless they played all day.
I do hope you're not suggesting that we paying customers pay Jagex to sit on their bums all day and play video games; that's our job :twisted: .
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If reporting was their main method, at least they could look at report quality and behavior related to them. While you say it would be difficult to monitor players through reports at least reports gave something quick to read. This is going to give Jagex A LOT of work because they have to monitor all those names and there isn't an easy way such as through reports.
True, but at the same time you can't disprove that Jagex gives a "very long" amount of time, making the argument a moot point. Granted, "long time" is relative, but since someone's word is the most valuable thing one can possess and Jagex's interests do not include lying to their playerbase, I'd say you can trust their judgment.
Just me playing DA...
I luvs playing devil's advocate \
It's fun, rite? 8-)
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It would be immpossible for there not to be mods who are in love with their crown. The crown as a symbol has many powers. It can instill fear, awe, respect, hatred and so on in many players. Many players look up to the crown, and many look down. There are even some rare people who can talk to someone with a crown as if they are actualy a player. So many players see the crown as a manifestation of authority that it would be hard to immagine not one mod being attracted to the power of their position.
What the crown actualy is, is an ID badge. It basicly says that for all things rule based, this player actualy knows what there talking about.
Many mods however, see the crown not as a symbol, but as a tool. The crown goes a long way to difusing a tense situation if the mod can choose the right words. It can distract people so well that a political conversation thats about to turn into a verbal nuclear war will stop dead in its tracks. The crown can call BS on scammers.
But the crown is also cursed. In pvp, the crown is basicly a huge bullseye sign. People drop what there doing to go kill the mod. People will hate mods because they see them as authority figures, so the crown attracts loads of harrasment to it. It hinders normal conversation. Finding people who can actualy talk to a mod as if there was no crown is not a common event, instead you get flamed, questioned, and your own personal army of suck-ups. And then theres the questions. Its a wonder mods don't all mute anyone who asks: Whats a mod or How did you get modded or Whats it like to be a mod. If a mod [blocked due to abuse] off the handle after that sort of question its probably related to their being asked that question 50 times already that day.
There are MANY mods who would love to be able to turn the crown off, so as to play the game with some normalcy. Many mods are diven to have a second charecter to get away from the questions. Sure thats not the same as giving it up entirely. Partly thats an emotional bond, but partly being a mod without the crown would pretty much hinder everything a mod does but report and mute. It would also allow everyone to claim they are a non-crowned mod (which is probably why they cant hide them).
There are mods out there who only care about status yes, but so many more mods who are more than that, better than that.
As for the changes to mod selection. Its important to understand just how unimportant reporting was even before the update. Yes, it counted, but accuracy was, and still is, many times more important that reporting quantity. What the change has done is allowed people who are really active in the community a better chance at being modded. The change has basicly been that Jagex is more open about the proccess, just as they are being more open about mods themselves.
As for speaking through chat, not even the mods are in love with that, probably beecause people keep telling them to shut up. The colution would be to go to another chat tab (I think that works), or just ignore them. The ignore list does silence them.
Why are they needed? Specificly looking at the mute, there are two major situations where a mute is more practical that ignoreing. The first is personal information. Some people are not smart enough to know not to give away their home address, or whatever else could be used to find them. Basicly, the person is not likely to ignore the person asking the questions, so preventing the qiestions from being asked is helpful. This goes the other way too. Are you going to ask where someone lives and then ignore them incase they answer you? The mute can also protect people by stopping them from spilling their life story.
Theres other examples but what it comes down to is the intended purpose of teh pmods mute is not to punish, but protect. It also serves to take things that have no place in the game (solicitation, racisim) out immediatly.
Alot of pmods are driven by a desire to make the game a better place, not oppress fellow players.
Your first paragraph really answers the debate. Status symbol.
If pmods find the crown such a burden they can always demod themselves. But alas, its losing power isn't it and they wouldn't want that.
Do you have any idea what the words on your response even mean? Not say, anybody who can read the English language can vomit out words like a parrot and make as much sense as you just did. This what your response means:
You first paragraph is the only relevant part of your post: the crown is an icon of superiority.If moderators don't want to carry the burden of being constantly harrassed by other players with questions and the like, then they can always return the badge for no penalty. But sadly, absolutely no player mod would want to do this because every player mod only cares about power and authority
That's what your response means. Your lack of detailed words regrettably leaves us readers to assume that you used "blanket" words like "all" or "every" or "none" or "nothing". Just for practicality and future reference, when you use those words, you are setting yourself up for failure unless you have the proof to back it up. All it takes is one person to prove you wrong. "But it's just one person..." Well, that one person just declared your whole response to be a pile of ignorance and negative stereotypes without them actually having to do anything except exist.
And just for another future reference, when you debate, you actively listen to the opposing argument and respond to everything to the best of your logical ability; defend your post if you believe you're right, and accept the contrary if you're wrong.
What you are doing, sir, is forcibly pushing your stereotype down our gullet without every giving a single thought to "heh, maybe he's right. Perhaps there are mods who don't think they're the bets thing since sliced bread and actually accept the duties of a pmod for the betterment of runescape." Regardless if a pmod has the exact same powers in reporting (aside from mutes), that silver crown is a status symbol. Just being a pmod can make players stop misbehaving without any action on the pmod's part.
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Well one thing is void doesn't stack with salve(e) so there's no point in wearing it, wear neitnotz and prossy or bandos if you have it. Second, you only need to run north to the first rock to make them re-aggressive.
Please don't start this argument. Void and slave DO stack, as they give different bonuses. VOid increases accuracy while salve increases attack and strength, so they DO stack. PLEASE NO FURTHER COMMENTS ON IF THEY STACK OR NOT, I just need to know what I am doing wrong.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you or trying to disprove you, but your logic is flawed.
Attack lvls = accuracy. The rule of thumb for invisible boosts is that they don't stack with each other concerning the same level.
If void + salve is an exception, then please state so since as robertr pointed out, not everyone knows that they stack.
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Edit: Thought i'd just udate the question as opposed to making a new thread.
Are there many good places to use dragon halberd? With relation to possible good drops.
None, because halberds have the max hit of a whip with the speed of a 2h. And range is greater in most situations simply because it's faster and thus usually hits hard. At your range lvl, it might be more dpm using a halberd, but you got to start training range somewhere; in the long run, it's better than a halberd, but ranged lvls don't grow on trees.
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I've had a few inklings over the years for articles to contribute to the tip.it times. I've always wondered how you guys get guest authors in there. Are they hand picked by contribution on certain forums, known in real life and just asked, or are they submitted and the editor picks the best one he/she thinks is most suitable for public viewing?
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Meh, it's not as bad as you guys think. All Jagex needs to do is make "grinding" food inexpensive. You don't really use sharks for slayer tasks, right? But something that heals about 10 or 12 hp that's a common drop from most monsters would be very helpful.
Hell, as a hunter in wow, you NEED a pet to hold aggro against a melee opponent, else the mob will get in your melee range where you can't attack with range (means next to -75% damage). As a mage or warlock you also NEED a snare or a pet, respectively, to keep the adds at bay or else you will die very quickly.
Remember rsc when you can't eat in combat? You can "bandage" in wow, but only once a minute, over 7 seconds of no interruptions, and it only heals about 25% of one's health at max hp/bandage. Eating in combat is a blessing. Jagex just needs to improve some grinding food drops on slayer monsters.
That, or make bones to peaches work on all bones and even ashes.
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Look- the sharp rise could have easily been something legitimate like a new item that requires it, etc. Can't you get that? Even if you claim that I could know that by reading the news, the change could still be caused by other causes that are not reported like a newly discovered way of training that requires that item, etc.
Considering you claim to know so much about it, you're trying to tell me that you didn't know it was happening? :^o
A is independent. B is dependent on A.
If A happens, what will happen? You don't know.
If B happens, what caused it? A obviously.
Now, B is dependent on A,C,D,E,F, and G. If B happens, what caused it? Let's get even more like the real world economy and say that C is dependent on D, but D is dependent on A but also E. G is independent but mutually exclusive to A. F is mutually exclusive of B and D but dependent on C and A. If D happens, what are the causes of it and what will happen next? You could work this out with enough time. But even more like the real economy is if we had letters A through ZZZ. Butterfly Effect. In something as complex as the economy, you can't say that a sharp rise in price is because of price manipulation. You can take the observation and build a hypothesis, do research and create a mental experiment to support the hypothesis, but you can't prove it. For example, take karil's crossbow. I hypothesized that the sharp rise was due to price manipulation because of the following:
1. the price had been steady for a good number of months, not changing much
2. the price is more than 60% increase (i Believe, correct me if I'm wrong)
3. the price increase occurred around the time that other items that have a possibility of being manipulated rose sharply
Now, none of these factual observations prove 100% that price manipulation occurred. The only way to prove that price manipulation occurred would be to ask every single person who played runescape if they contributed to a clan's manipulation of the Karil's crossbow between the dates of June 24th to whatever. Even then, all of those people would have to be telling the truth and know exactly what happened in their past.
And even then, the price increase is still not proven to be caused by manipulation. There could have been a sudden, random shortage of crossbows, or maybe a sudden [bleep]e in people going for caves. Maybe people just didn't sell or invested randomly and independently in the crossbow and it went up by chance. Maybe people bought them all for max price because they were impatient.
You don't know for certain.
Observations -> factual or very hard to disprove.
Interpretations -> almost always arguable.
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I honestly don't know what the [bleep] you mean. What "double act"?
I repeat again - it is IMPOSSIBLE to know whether an item is being manipulated or not unless you check the Grand Exchange database's charts. And who will do that? Also if you don't know a single thing about economics like me, how the hell are you going to tell whether XXX item is being manipulated at all?
I find your posts really amusing. You can't understand my meaning at all, and you're asking for honesty. Try to understand what I'm saying before blatantly dismissing it as rubbish.
Woah I think I could have charged my Dragonfire Shield off a couple of those flames... But seriously, it's quite easy to tell what's being merched without even using the database - simply look in their cc's!
Well said.
Only problem is if the cc is set to a rank and you're not part of the clan. Obviously if something that's been steady for years rises sharply like the karil's crossbow, it's most likely manipulation. Unlike most statistics, past events do have a bearing on the future price because human mentality is a very active player in economics (and humans respond to the history of a set of events). Therefore, if something starts behaving unusually in price, it's most likely manipulation. When I mean "unusually", I'm also taking into account the recent updates; if they make a weapon > than the gs, the change will most likely happen because of the update and not someone manipulating the price.
Rule of thumb: check the database on everything you buy on the g.e.; it helps tremendously in planning ahead when you see some [bleep]es in prices.
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:evil: :evil: dont you hate when you get a clue scroll, dedicate your valuable time to it and it turns out to be absolute junk
well, this just happened to me 4 times in a row with level 3 clues. Each one had a lot of steps and puzzles (my last clue had 3 puzzles in a row) and each time ive gotten GARBAGE
im so very mad for wasting valuable time on this stupid clues
:evil:
(yes mad)
Admin edit: Please remember language. Siobhana
Yeah, I hate it when I don't get a valuable drop every single day I'm out busting [wagon] in slayer, or when I find a good ol' bird's nest only to find that it doesn't contain a green or blue egg.
Stop being so contrived; you wouldn't be frustrated if what you wanted wasn't valuable (double negative ftw \
). It happens in life. If you want money, go do dailies; sell coal you get from Kingdom, make bstaves and alch them, craft nats through the abyss, cut yews and fletch your bows with the free 120 flax. There's plenty of other money makers out there; clues are just a bonus.
edit: that's also how vegas works, except you gamble time in clues and not money.
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You could rationalize firemaking as a "log sink" in a similar way that construction and summoning are "money sinks." Fletching is a very popular skill. Before 07 you could make money even while buying the stuff. Even when you have to gather certain materials to make a profit, it' still turning items in gold.
Firemaking turns (at least) logs into...well, nothing. There's no reason to do so other that another 99 for trim, but it does serve the rationalized purpose 8-) .
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Oooo....someone who wants to take the morale issue to a new level! Goody.....*rubs hands in glee* lol
Morals are relative until you introduce a "standard"
This does not have to relate to religion, but in the instance of considering morals, the standard is set by the perception of those who wish their individual status and personality to be defined by their response and behaviour to those standards. In the example of rs price manipulation, those morals differ from rl due to the anonyminity of game play.
Morals have to do with the relationship between us and: ourselves, the world, and others. It's also based upon a postulate that to be true to ourselves and to not hurt ourselves, others, or the world is the most important thing. Anonymity has nothing to do with morality; is it moral to pick up a piece of trash when you believe it is the right thing to do even when no one is looking? I would say so and not picking it up when you believe it to be the right thing would be immoral.
If you want to say that the internet is not "anonymity" and actually a split personality with different cues (which is entirely possible), then you have to grapple with the fact that that other person is still suject to the standard of not hurting other people, the world or themselves.
If one truly believed that price manipulation is wrong, then doing the manipulation would be immoral. Likewise, believing it to be alright and still manipulating would still be moral.This does not take into account human nature, there are also many young (and not so young) players on rs who feel the need to 'belong', their best friend may be part of a price manipulation clan and they feel pressurised into taking an active part. Is it morally wrong when conducted under duress? Don't you think some people do not understand 'morals' and therefore shift their arguments and standpoint to suit their perception of what others want to hear? I think we have had some significant examples of this 'shifting' in this thread. Not everyone understands or can adhere to a moral high ground, even when it is just a game. I think this point you made is too limited.
I more or less agree with point 3.
What your describing is called a "dilemma". It's actually more complex than what the media tells us. Laws, ethics, and morals are all independent. Laws are rules that are enforced or sanctioned. Ethics are a set of rules that will remove you from the respective group but are not sanctioned. Speeding is not unethical but not against the law. It would be unethical to betray a gang member to the police but certainly not against the law. My argument is basing what's right or wrong upon morals. I do so because it would be unethical to stop smoking when you're in the smoking group whereas it would be moral to stop (thus the dilemma).
Yes, it would be unethical to not go along with the group's standards of price manipulation. But if you know or have this faint thought in your head that price manipulation could or would have repercussions, then you're being immoral.
You see how ethics and morals can be relative? That's why they can be supplemented with a religion; there's a standard for the people to follow, not just be relative.
Finally, does price manipulation, contribute, detract, or have no affect on the common good?In this example I would have to say that rs is not just an artificial society, but it is also an authoritarian one that is 'parented' by Jagex. Ultimately it has to be....it is a business and a game. Democracy of some sort maybe 'allowed' but please note it is at their discretion and is not a 'right'. Therefore I would argue that your point about 'common good' is irrelevant here, as the 'common good' is defined by Jagex themselves. So the 'good for all' example would fail to be realised as we are back to the first point around perceptions. :)
Jagex sanctions laws as a government would on a country or any people for that matter. You can be unlawful and break rules to get banned or muted. You can also be unethical by selling gold (which also happens to be unlawful). But one thing that you're also leaving out is that even in a totalitarian government, the government does not have complete control over the people, unless they turn them into robots, literal or figurative. The government is only as powerful as the people who are governed in any government. If the peasants in feudal england were abused enough, they would revolt. This is called a coup. Now, we can't (well, we probably shouldn't) have a coup and topple Jagex, but we can stop paying them, another way to "die for one's beliefs". If enough people stop paying because they don't like how Jagex runs things, Jagex will listen (three biggest motivators: fear, money, and honor.) So, although the common good may not be as prevalent as in a democracy (which is almost non-existent in today's world, really), it still exists and has an impact on politics. Like I said before, the common good is intangible. The common good could be martyrdom in extreme cases, or it could simply be pleasing a set fanbase. If Jagex catered to people who were able to afford more expensive clients with software and become a carbon copy of Blizzard, they would be abandoning their previous fanbase. This is immoral. Why?
1. Hurts people? yes, because it betrays loyal customers.
2. Hurts the world? probably not, but it would give Jagex a reputation
3. Hurts themselves? Yes. Jagex would gain the reputation of being wishwashy and of being liars. That would hurt them in the long run.
If for nothing else, you should not lie because when found out, your reputation will decrease and hurt your future chances of other people's believing you. "A lie is the most detestable thing a man can be accused of."
That's just one example, but the common good is not irrelevant but less important.
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Where did the x^160 come from?
He claimed that it took him 160 times. When you follow "and" statements with probability, you multiply them. For example, the chance that I will flip a fair coin and get 2 heads out of 2 flips is 0.5 * 0.5 or 0.5^2. So, something that has x probability that will occur Y amount of times in a row will be: x^y= the probability of event. I solved it backwards to solve for X instead of the normal result.
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When I posted this thread was less than halfway down the first page.
Your whining about my bumping (which I didn't do) bumped the thread.
Fix'd.
Yes, I'm a grammar Nazi; get over it.
In terms of the TIF time, halfway down the page is pretty old. I remember when this thread was on the second page of rants. And when you post something on a forum, be it a whole thread or a simple post, you're asking for a response. Do you randomly go up to someone in real life, make a statement and then just walk away without expecting an answer?
Aside from the asinine "post" that basically had been said over ten times in the last 30 pages, your redirection of the argument to the subject of hypocrisy is misleading and doesn't keep people from remembering the single sentence post that added no value to the discussion.
If you're going to post a 1 liner, at least make it something that no one else has said. And like Rachet said, there was no "golden age" where everything was near perfect; listen to "High School Never Ends" (yes, I just referred to a song) for better explanation. I remember having fun back then because everything was new to my lvl 20 toon. I remember when they added in uzer and desert treasure and the barrows. I was full of excitement. I've done nearly all that there is to do in runescape aside from train every skill to 99 and unlock every music and gain every vanity pet. I have been everywhere, made the soft cap in several skills, unlocked almost every piece of music, killed almost every monster, played every single minigame, and completed every quest.
It's not as fun as it was at lvl 20 because everything was so new and strange. Perhaps that's the falacy; we remember that we had more fun back in the ol' days when we had to walk up to dem places and not take dem goshdarn ballon thinkabobs or when we's had ta use ar brains in magic befo' them grandtootin' ancient magicks! Therefore, since we had more fun back then, it must be because everything was perfect and definitely not because we were eager, new players ready to take on the world.
That's probably the same reason why old people remember the past; everything was better when things were new. Now that everything is old, it's not fun. In fact, there's a diagram in mathematics called an "s-curve" that details this exact relationship. Google it if you want to learn more, young paddewan.
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I laughed, I cried, and I lost 15 pounds. That is my review of that piece.
15 pounds?!
My coach is beating me into the dust (or water). Less weight = less work in dry-lands. Teach me this magical way of losing weight by simply reading :shock: (preferably in a Billy Mayes-esque fashion).
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I cannot claim to have not taken advantage of such things. That's why I do not sit here piously claiming it is wrong.
The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. I call you out. No sitting on the fence. Price manipulation - right or wrong?
First of all, if you are going to insist on such finite definitions, may I just raise the point that you should be careful of double negatives in your phrasing, makes for very difficult reading...lol.
OK re: the Jagex post that price manipulation by clans is frowned upon....but not against the rules, therefore in practice it is 'right' and I have no guilt in exploiting the rise and fall in prices when they occur. And now there is no debate :shame:
However, once you bring principle into it, a 'grey' area becomes apparent and the exploitation and manipulation of prices by a few clans that can (and sometimes does) disadvantage so many, appears unfair and essentially wrong....so why do I still do it? Because it benefits me.... Now there is a debate! :thumbsup:
Or we could simply plug the points into the "negative proof" formula:
Assuming that Price manipulation is right, it will:
1. not break a moral standard set by a third party.
2. not hurt one's self in excessive use
3. be true to what the person claims to be or make the person "real" <- ignore this second part because it gets into religious debate.
4. help the common good
Morals are relative until you introduce a "standard" which is dependent on one's religion. For example, if one truly believed that the Us needed to go to Iraq and they had the power to command the troops, they would be immoral if they did not send those troops in. The same goes for the people against it.
1. If one truly believed that price manipulation is wrong, then doing the manipulation would be immoral. Likewise, believing it to be alright and still manipulating would still be moral.
2. In excessive use, manipulation can be detrimental to the instigator, much how gambling is. You can get a hot streak and make billions. Then you can go down the tube and lose more money than you earned. Price manipulation is a gamble because people are unpredictable to a certain degree.
3. Price manipulation is not anything like capitalism because capitalism runs on a supply and demand system where private owners make their own private decisions. Manipulation is a group of people who make decisions to create artificial supply and demand. Any price manipulator claiming to be a merchanter in runescape or an entrepreneur in real life is a filthy liar and is being immoral. Of course, if they don't claim as such, then they're not.
4. Finally, does price manipulation, contribute, detract, or have no affect on the common good? Since the common good is intangible and hard to describe, you would have to argue what that is before coming to the conclusion if price manipulation is wrong. I believe it detracts because it scams people participating in the pyramid by lying that they will make millions when it's really a can make millions. However, if people are in an actual group in real life and not scamming their subordinates, it comes down to that people are acting more than what the group is (3 people creating the demand of maybe 5, which is unfair). But if everyone manipulated, then everyone would have equal chance. That's where the argument breaks down.
In conclusion, whether or not the price manipulation is right or wrong boils down to how one views the common good.
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ok the quest states that its hard- i thought ok i'll give it a try
Followed tipits (and zybez ) guides and got to part 3. I checked journal, and have everything needed for the next part.
Ok after reading the guide it says to go to where the roots are exposed and take a cutting. So i do this.
Then it tells me to plant it (like how you pot up seeds for farming) so i do this perfectly fine.
Ok the cutting doesn't take.I think no problem, i'll take another- that fails too.
I take about 20 cutting (all fail) and i think hold on am i doing something wrong?
I load up the jagex quest help (pay 2 points for further help) and they tell me it'll take a few tries but i am doing everything right.
Fast forward a few tries......
And a few more...
70 tries later, and still no luck with that cutting, so i log off in disgust. I'm gonna take a nice long walk with my dog and stuff myself with bad food to make me feel better.
70 tries and still no sucess?
Bah humbug!
Anyone else have this problem?
edit:
took 75 tries for the bloomin root to take
let's look at this mathematically.
x^160 = the odds of you being the person.
Assuming that there are 13 million people in the game, you find the 160th root of 1/(1.3*10^7).
Plug this into a calculator, and you end up with about a 9.5% chance that you'll fail each time.
You just got really unlucky, my good friend.
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I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about with "fair combat system". P2p isn't much better, just faster.
Utility needs to be balanced very finely like it is in WoW which all of the mathematics give way to very good strategies.
We can freeze 20 sec and do a max of 30 damage. So what? Against people of similar magic level, there is a good chance that the only line of defense fails for a mage. It's like having a special attack that's stapled onto the best ranged weapon which is better than any other weapon, but you can't attack if you don't do the spec and failing to hit with the spec decreases your defense by 50%.
And even if you have the patience and cash to train as a mage in pvp, it's still not as practical as being melee or ranged, which seriously needs to change.
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Well, obviously, fenrir. I think what you're saying is already common sense among us.
It's not obvious seeing as some people don't understand this "common sense". I know several people that argue just to have the opportunity to egg a person on.
I probably just chose my words incorrectly with the previous posts.
I never said that winning the argument is imposing your beliefs upon the other person. I said that winning is not either defending your point or learning from the argument. Saying that is like saying, "I got checkmated, but I still won because I know what I did wrong." That's not winning the game; that's learning and gaining something from the loss.
If you fail to defend your point, you lose the argument, end of statement. That doesn't mean you can't learn anything or that loss is something to avoid at all costs. Loss is sometimes the best course of action in order to learn.
But just to clarify my stance: you should never impose your points upon someone else. What you do is validate your own and respond to the other person's validation. If you fail to validate your point, then you lose. Accept the loss and gain something from the experience to be better prepared for the next round.
I think the above is what you're stating, but there seems to be a misconception between the words, somewhat like the rant several weeks ago that was confusing "merchanters" with "price manipulators."
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Alright, just making sure you knew that it's about the discussion and the information gained and not the good feeling from "winning".
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I've always wondered if I were addicted to the computer. However, I've lasted several days without the computer before (even though I'm almost constantly on it), so I'm sure I'm not addicted to the computer, much less runescape.
I think probably the problem with the "runescape addiction" is that it's not technically an addiction. An addiction is more along the lines of physiological need, like if you go into withdrawal, you will have physical ailments along the lines of sickness or complete dysfunction. What the author described is more along the lines of Pavlov's dog experiment except the dog didn't get the food. It's a learned behavior that would need to be relearned. You could say that an un-socialized (don't know the word) baby when presented with a socialized world would go into withdrawal from being "addicted" to being a heathen.
Not to say that what the author had done was right or rational, but I think the label which he placed on the effects was misleading. If someone begins to get convulsions or vomits due to lack of runescape or video games, then there can be more evidence for addiction.
Price manipulation: right or wrong?
in General Discussion
Posted
I am.
I am also trying to prove that:
1. Price manipulation is not the sole cause of any manipulated price
2. The economy is unpredictable
3. It's almost impossible very difficult to pin a price solely on price manipulation
If you're referring to my claim of mere speculation, I was referring to the last paragraph dealing with my interpretation of Jagex's actions, not the entirety of my post.
If there's no need to prove something, then you're arguing opinions, which by definition is not an argument. But if there's no need to prove something because it's already been stated, then why hasn't this thread died yet? :?