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johntm

Homosexuality: Right or Wrong?

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...which basically declares the American Dream of working hard and getting rich to be immoral. Do I believe that being rich is wrong - no - but that quote is always a good argument ended in these discussions.

 

 

 

Well, back in those days you were either born into wealth or born into poverty. You didn't work hard to become rich like how it mostly is today - you just got it handed to you. The poor were the hard workers and the rich were the ones who sat on their butts eating grapes all day. I can see why they would say the more spoiled a man is, the harder it is to follow the path of God. You wouldn't really need God if you were treated like one yourself, but as for the poor who have to work to death just to survive, believing God and having hope would be very useful to them.

 

 

 

My point was that taking the bible literally can backfire, the rights and wrongs of capitalism & the American Dream was just my way to highlight it (using that passage).

 

 

 

 

 

Well at that point, you need to use your own discretion. Some passages SHOULD be taken literally ,while some shouldn't. And as that is very hard to do, leave it to the Bible Scholars to figure it out.

 

 

 

And yea, Zierro is right, there was this one instance when Jesus was talking to a rich guy who wanted to go to heaven. Jesus said "drop all your riches, and follow me" the guy said no. And he's in hell now probably lol. Jesus wasn't saying you can't be rich, but the guy was hoarding it. Not giving to the needy, nor to God. That's what Jesus meant.

 

 

 

Then who decides what should be taken as a parable and what shouldn't - scholars? What happens when scholars disagree?

 

 

 

Also there is zero ambiguity in the passage I mentioned, it says "a rich man" - not some, there are no preconditions, no exceptions are mentioned - it suggests that all rich men would find it virtually impossible to get into heaven. I love how you say "that's what Jesus meant" like you were there to hear it in context.


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and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

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I know that religion plays a big factor in how some people feel about homosexuality but don't make this whole topic about religion, it's really annoying and pretty much all bull anyways.

 

 

 

I don't really care about homosexuality. Nobody is forcing it on me so why should I care what they want to do with their lives.


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...which basically declares the American Dream of working hard and getting rich to be immoral. Do I believe that being rich is wrong - no - but that quote is always a good argument ended in these discussions.

 

 

 

Well, back in those days you were either born into wealth or born into poverty. You didn't work hard to become rich like how it mostly is today - you just got it handed to you. The poor were the hard workers and the rich were the ones who sat on their butts eating grapes all day. I can see why they would say the more spoiled a man is, the harder it is to follow the path of God. You wouldn't really need God if you were treated like one yourself, but as for the poor who have to work to death just to survive, believing God and having hope would be very useful to them.

 

 

 

My point was that taking the bible literally can backfire, the rights and wrongs of capitalism & the American Dream was just my way to highlight it (using that passage).

 

 

 

 

 

Well at that point, you need to use your own discretion. Some passages SHOULD be taken literally ,while some shouldn't. And as that is very hard to do, leave it to the Bible Scholars to figure it out.

 

 

 

And yea, Zierro is right, there was this one instance when Jesus was talking to a rich guy who wanted to go to heaven. Jesus said "drop all your riches, and follow me" the guy said no. And he's in hell now probably lol. Jesus wasn't saying you can't be rich, but the guy was hoarding it. Not giving to the needy, nor to God. That's what Jesus meant.

 

 

 

Then who decides what should be taken as a parable and what shouldn't - scholars? What happens when scholars disagree?

 

 

 

Also there is zero ambiguity in the passage I mentioned, it says "a rich man" - not some, there are no preconditions, no exceptions are mentioned - it suggests that all rich men would find it virtually impossible to get into heaven. I love how you say "that's what Jesus meant" like you were there to hear it in context.

 

 

 

lol.

 

 

 

Is that really your argument? Well, what happens when scholars disagree with anything else in life? The same thing applies here. And I guess you never read what I posted. I stated, it's not the amount of money, it's the attitude about it. You said, all rich men go to hell. I don't see the correlation. And I suppose that's true, I wasn't there when Jesus said it. But most of the time, it's quite obvious what he means when he says things. I just don't understand why non Christians think it's their duty to defeat the morbid lie of Christianity. When they have no problem with Islam or anything religion. Kinda unrelated, but still loll.

 

 

 

 

 

And Plugpoint, when they say love thy neighbor, or love thy enemy and such, it doesn't mean love, like loving your spouse. But more of be kind to thy neighbor, and thy enemy.


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Yeah exactly, so be as kind to gay people as you would be to straight people. Because homophobia's not cool.


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I just don't understand why non Christians think it's their duty to defeat the morbid lie of Christianity. When they have no problem with Islam or anything religion.

 

 

 

Um because it appears that you want to stop us gay folk marrying the loves of our lives (amongst other things)?

 

 

 

Theres loads of reasons why people think that religion is a bad thing and that it should be replaced. One of the big ones for me is the attitude that people are in someone 'not animals'. This separation between man and animal inevitably leads to a sense of arrogance on the part of people. I also find the idea that beliefs in some way matter to Christians quite repellent. I have beliefs of my own, as does everyone on the planet. But I dont act on those beliefs in regards to other people because they are just that, beliefs, and they could (obviously) be wrong. I think beliefs are fine when they just dictate how you live your life, but the moment they start interacting with other people you are in trouble.

 

 

 

And i think you'll find we have LOADS of problems with Islam, but there arent Muslims on these forums to debate with.

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I just don't understand why non Christians think it's their duty to defeat the morbid lie of Christianity. When they have no problem with Islam or anything religion.

 

 

 

Um because it appears that you want to stop us gay folk marrying the loves of our lives (amongst other things)?

 

 

 

Theres loads of reasons why people think that religion is a bad thing and that it should be replaced. One of the big ones for me is the attitude that people are in someone 'not animals'. This separation between man and animal inevitably leads to a sense of arrogance on the part of people. I also find the idea that beliefs in some way matter to Christians quite repellent. I have beliefs of my own, as does everyone on the planet. But I dont act on those beliefs in regards to other people because they are just that, beliefs, and they could (obviously) be wrong. I think beliefs are fine when they just dictate how you live your life, but the moment they start interacting with other people you are in trouble.

 

 

 

And i think you'll find we have LOADS of problems with Islam, but there arent Muslims on these forums to debate with.

 

 

 

 

 

Welll, I never told you this, so you don't know but. I have absolutely no problem with hoomosexuality at all, and have many gay friends. And I think you're problem is with the Christian Church, not Christianity. Just my opinion. And I do agree with your stance about enforcing other peoples morals on people. But here's my problem, what if someone thought that killing is a good moral to have. I know thats an extreme case, but what happens when your morals change other peoples lives whether they want to or not. (my example is abortion)


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I don't think people choose to be attracted to the same sex, but it just kind of happens. I know someone that didn't want to be homosexual but couldn't seem to be attracted to woman. Then one day they were like holy [cabbage] i'm gay. Now the act of doing homosexual stuff is a choice. The act, well i don't think its right but thats not my choice.


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I just don't understand why non Christians think it's their duty to defeat the morbid lie of Christianity. When they have no problem with Islam or anything religion.

 

 

 

Um because it appears that you want to stop us gay folk marrying the loves of our lives (amongst other things)?

 

 

 

Theres loads of reasons why people think that religion is a bad thing and that it should be replaced. One of the big ones for me is the attitude that people are in someone 'not animals'. This separation between man and animal inevitably leads to a sense of arrogance on the part of people. I also find the idea that beliefs in some way matter to Christians quite repellent. I have beliefs of my own, as does everyone on the planet. But I dont act on those beliefs in regards to other people because they are just that, beliefs, and they could (obviously) be wrong. I think beliefs are fine when they just dictate how you live your life, but the moment they start interacting with other people you are in trouble.

 

 

 

And i think you'll find we have LOADS of problems with Islam, but there arent Muslims on these forums to debate with.

 

 

 

 

 

Welll, I never told you this, so you don't know but. I have absolutely no problem with hoomosexuality at all, and have many gay friends. And I think you're problem is with the Christian Church, not Christianity. Just my opinion. And I do agree with your stance about enforcing other peoples morals on people.

 

Almost, my problem is with certain individuals, often includes people who call themselves Christian. I never have a problem with an idea, just someone who holds an idea and then does anything about it.

 

 

 

But here's my problem, what if someone thought that killing is a good moral to have. I know thats an extreme case, but what happens when your morals change other peoples lives whether they want to or not. (my example is abortion)

 

Well thats a clear case of someones beliefs interacting external to them, and then I have a problem with it. Actually I dont have a problem with abortion though, because I'm a man and will never have an abortion, and even more, as a gay man I will never have a partner who will have an abortion, so my morals have no reason to interfere with anyone elses choices.

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I've never understood why professed Christians care. I mean, really. If some guy and some other guy are having the naked times of their lives in a house in a completely different section of town, what the heck do I care? Now, if I live in an apartment with thin walls and they're next door and the time of their lives is keeping me up at night, I'd be mad, but I'd be just as mad if it were a straight couple in that case.

 

 

 

Regarding Christianity, and a bit off-topic, I think that if you just gave a person the ten commandments and never let them set foot inside a church, they'd turn out okay. It's the organization that's flawed, not the base philosophy.

 

But then, this is the way I feel about every organization in human history: the process of changing that which came before you is inherently flawed, and will always work in some corruption which won't get worked out. Militaries, education systems, law, banking, every last one of them.


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100% right. im not homosexual, but people have a choise and if that's their chose, then so be it. the law shouldn't prevent them, that's just plain wrong. as for the bible.. eh, wasn't there some study that proved that you were born homosexual? i dunno.


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I just found out one of my teachers is a lesbian. :lol:

 

 

 

Never woulda guessed neither. So not all gays are out-of-the-norm-attention-seekers.


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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I just found out one of my teachers is a lesbian. :lol:

 

 

 

Never woulda guessed neither. So not all gays are out-of-the-norm-attention-seekers.

 

You thought that? I'm ashamed to call you a TIFer.

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So not all gays are out-of-the-norm-attention-seekers.

 

 

 

In fact the vast majority are NOT "out of the norm attention seekers" and its that very reason why you seem surprised to discover that your teacher is a lesbian. Its the "flaming queen" minority that give the negative stereotype for the rest of us.

 

 

 

It is similar to the way you seem to always see "gun-toting gangster" black music artists perpetuating negative stereotypes of black people, when I know full well that the vast majority of black people are not gun-toting gangsters.

 

 

 

The ones in a group that are most prominent give you a false impression of the group as a whole.


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I just found out one of my teachers is a lesbian. :lol:

 

 

 

Never woulda guessed neither. So not all gays are out-of-the-norm-attention-seekers.

 

 

 

Those with the loudest voices are heard the most, but that doesn't mean they're present in higher numbers. It's a fairly common reason for false statistical inferences.

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Well being an E.C. Christian (Google for a full description, don't bloody PM me) it's against my religion, and therefore a sin. However I don't hate homosexuality, I'm not gonna join in, but I won't spite people for it. It's just one of those things that really isn't a choice, if you are you are, and you shouldn't fake it.

 

 

 

Although (and you all know these people) the kids in high school that say "Oh yeah I'm bi" are 95% of the time doing it for attention. They've typically obnoxious and just make you wanna punch them in the face (DO IT! PUNCH THEM!!). Also, they give real homosexual people a bad name, because the REAL ones I've met aren't obnoxious or annoying at all. They're just... people. I dated a fake one once, and I think I may just hate her now because she's just so annoying. Different story for a different time... moving on.

 

 

 

Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.


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This is a pretty sensitive issue. Of course religious people will say no, and even others will say no. Of course, you can't really know how homosexuality feels unless you are actually gay (no I'm not saying I'm gay rofl). Why can we judge whether people can have a relationship or not? We are treating them as lesser people, when in fact they are as human as everyone else. They are different, but we are ALL different. Black people were treated wrongly because they were different, and the same is happening here. Honestly, religion is so backwards I can't even begin to flame it enough.

 

 

 

It isn't just religion, but it is a main cause of discrimination against gays. Some people do go, "I'm gay, look at me omg im teh pwnage". They aren't gay NATURALLY, they are either posing as been gay or decided over the course of there life they'd decide to "experiment" if you want to use that term. Those born gay, however, are heavily affected. Those born gay are the ones who suffer the greatest. And it is wrong.

 

 

 

I can't wait to hear your counter-arguments ;) this should be a lot of fun.


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What I meant by "So not all gays are out-of-the-norm-attention-seekers", is to prove the point that homosexuals are like everyday human beings and should not be excluded in any rights.

 

 

 

Come now, even I'm not that low. :lol:


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This is a pretty sensitive issue. Of course religious people will say no, and even others will say no. Of course, you can't really know how homosexuality feels unless you are actually gay (no I'm not saying I'm gay rofl). Why can we judge whether people can have a relationship or not? We are treating them as lesser people, when in fact they are as human as everyone else. They are different, but we are ALL different. Black people were treated wrongly because they were different, and the same is happening here. Honestly, religion is so backwards I can't even begin to flame it enough.

 

 

 

It isn't just religion, but it is a main cause of discrimination against gays. Some people do go, "I'm gay, look at me omg im teh pwnage". They aren't gay NATURALLY, they are either posing as been gay or decided over the course of there life they'd decide to "experiment" if you want to use that term. Those born gay, however, are heavily affected. Those born gay are the ones who suffer the greatest. And it is wrong.

 

 

 

I can't wait to hear your counter-arguments ;) this should be a lot of fun.

 

 

 

Hey this isn't a counter argument, more of an agreement actually ::'

 

 

 

The ones that decide to experiment, if they're doing it for themselves to see whats going on, I can live with that (still not gonna join in, but... I can deal). But like I said before, it's the ones that do it purely for attention that just piss me off, and give everyone else a bad name.

 

 

 

"OMFG LOOK AT ME I'M BI CHECK ME OUT WOO I'M AWESOME AND UB3R P0WN4G3!!!!1!!!" <-Those people need to be hit by the infamous ban boots or kick stick of the BSC chat. Ban them from talking in real life :D


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Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I think the definition of marriage is slowly shifting away from it's religious roots to have a more secular meaning. Of course the more conservative among us hate this, but I do believe it's happening.

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This is a pretty sensitive issue. Of course religious people will say no, and even others will say no. Of course, you can't really know how homosexuality feels unless you are actually gay (no I'm not saying I'm gay rofl). Why can we judge whether people can have a relationship or not? We are treating them as lesser people, when in fact they are as human as everyone else. They are different, but we are ALL different. Black people were treated wrongly because they were different, and the same is happening here. Honestly, religion is so backwards I can't even begin to flame it enough.

 

 

 

It isn't just religion, but it is a main cause of discrimination against gays. Some people do go, "I'm gay, look at me omg im teh pwnage". They aren't gay NATURALLY, they are either posing as been gay or decided over the course of there life they'd decide to "experiment" if you want to use that term. Those born gay, however, are heavily affected. Those born gay are the ones who suffer the greatest. And it is wrong.

 

 

 

I can't wait to hear your counter-arguments ;) this should be a lot of fun.

 

 

 

Hey this isn't a counter argument, more of an agreement actually ::'

 

 

 

The ones that decide to experiment, if they're doing it for themselves to see whats going on, I can live with that (still not gonna join in, but... I can deal). But like I said before, it's the ones that do it purely for attention that just piss me off, and give everyone else a bad name.

 

 

 

"OMFG LOOK AT ME I'M BI CHECK ME OUT WOO I'M AWESOME AND UB3R P0WN4G3!!!!1!!!" <-Those people need to be hit by the infamous ban boots or kick stick of the BSC chat. Ban them from talking in real life :D

 

 

 

:lol: if that were possible I'd do it. Too bad life isn't a forum though :? and if it was, I'd neve make it as a moderator :P

 

 

 

it's the attention-seekers that cause a lot of grief, and I wish they'd stop. But its a free world, and they are free to do what they want in it. Sadly :(


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Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I think the definition of marriage is slowly shifting away from it's religious roots to have a more secular meaning. Of course the more conservative among us hate this, but I do believe it's happening.

 

 

 

Oh I know and that's what I personally would like to see stop. Certain religious stuff should stay that way in my opinion... but unfortunately that's not going to happen. Eh well...


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Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I think the definition of marriage is slowly shifting away from it's religious roots to have a more secular meaning. Of course the more conservative among us hate this, but I do believe it's happening.

 

 

 

Oh I know and that's what I personally would like to see stop. Certain religious stuff should stay that way in my opinion... but unfortunately that's not going to happen. Eh well...

 

Don't some churches get government funding? If I'm wrong, please ignore the following:

 

 

 

Those that do receive funding HAVE to marry homosexuals. No ifs, ands, or buts. Those that don't should be considered private and not be forced what to do.


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I think the definition of marriage is slowly shifting away from it's religious roots to have a more secular meaning. Of course the more conservative among us hate this, but I do believe it's happening.

 

 

 

Oh I know and that's what I personally would like to see stop. Certain religious stuff should stay that way in my opinion... but unfortunately that's not going to happen. Eh well...

 

Don't some churches get government funding? If I'm wrong, please ignore the following:

 

 

 

Those that do receive funding HAVE to marry homosexuals. No ifs, ands, or buts. Those that don't should be considered private and not be forced what to do.

 

 

 

Some may, I don't know for sure (but my gut tells me no since theres no way the gov. could fund all of them, and it would lead to having to fund Synagogues and other things to be fair ).


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Now for the marriage/civil union thing, marriage is a RELIGIOUS term and civil union is the LEGAL one. Don't mix them, homosexual people should be allowed a civil union, not a marriage, since homosexuality goes against most sections of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I think the definition of marriage is slowly shifting away from it's religious roots to have a more secular meaning. Of course the more conservative among us hate this, but I do believe it's happening.

 

 

 

Oh I know and that's what I personally would like to see stop. Certain religious stuff should stay that way in my opinion... but unfortunately that's not going to happen. Eh well...

 

Don't some churches get government funding? If I'm wrong, please ignore the following:

 

 

 

Those that do receive funding HAVE to marry homosexuals. No ifs, ands, or buts. Those that don't should be considered private and not be forced what to do.

 

I think they;re exempt from taxes.


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I think they;re exempt from taxes.

 

 

 

They're exempt from taxes, yes.


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