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Joes_So_Cool

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If people want to believe in a higher being, or religious ideals, that is fine and I don't have a problem with that.

 

I personally am not religious and don't believe in "God", because I do not believe in certain practices and lifestyles that they impose on you; ie. Do this or you go to hell.

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So in order to have "real" or "complete" free will, we shouldn't have conquences for our actions is what your saying..

 

 

 

"Why can't I commit murder and not go to hell? Thats not free will!"

 

 

 

Yeah keep thinking free will is not having consequences.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand. My argument was that the almighty's approach to create 'free will' (unless it's a misnomer) was counter intuitive given his apparant desire to run us by his will vis a vis the flood, the commandments, etc.

 

 

 

I'm not saying you can't have free will with consequences, I'm questioning the motives of creating it then 'gently' guiding us towards the will of god by means of floods and the like.

 

 

 

Matter doesn't just appear out of nowhere...

 

 

 

This has always escaped me. Matter just dosen't appear out of nowhere, but the being we assume created it does? We're substituting self creating matter, which I agree we've got no idea whether it's possible, for a supernatural being creating matter, which is an assumtion adding an entity (often described as a personified figure with the epitome of knowledge, wisdom and love) and is often proffered to be adequete because anything is possible in the supernatural world, which in itself is an assumption. Hide the assumption with another assumption. These are the answers we contend with if we choose to say matter dosen't come out of nowhere, which in itself is no answer to me, hence why I don't believe in either.

 

 

 

To all the people criticising the Bible, Qur'an, Torah, the Veda etc...

 

 

 

Remember those are man-written books. Just because in those tales God supposedly did this or that doesn't mean a God (if one were to exist) is really genocidal and causes floods and diseases.

 

 

 

I agree, perhaps people who criticise these holy books do so against a literal interpretation?

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I don't believe in God in the sense that he created the world and is watching us right now. There is too much evidence supporting evolution. If some divine power, or any power greater than us, began life on Earth, it is long gone.

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But then again, does he really love us back? We pray to him, he offers us protection and yet there's a war going on, there's children suffering around the world. That's only one of the many reasons why I don't believe.

 

It's not God's fault that there are people suffering in the world. The path of suffering and evil was chosen long ago by Adam and Eve. We should be thankful that God is merciful and wants to restore the world.

 

 

 

I've never really been keen on the whole original sin concept. So you'd be ok if you had to serve a life sentence for your dad's crimes and your way out was to repent for your sins?

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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I don't believe in God in the sense that he created the world and is watching us right now. There is too much evidence supporting evolution.

 

 

 

I don't see how that's a valid argument. Especially in industrialized western nations with a large christian community (excluding the US), evolution and religion go hand-in-hand. The existence of a God does not automatically exclude the fact evolution happened.

 

 

 

But yeah, if you take it literally and think a God actually created people out of mud and men's ribs, you may have troubles teaching your children science and evolution...

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This has always escaped me. Matter just dosen't appear out of nowhere, but the being we assume created it does? We're substituting self creating matter, which I agree we've got no idea whether it's possible, for a supernatural being creating matter, which is an assumtion adding an entity (often described as a personified figure with the epitome of knowledge, wisdom and love) and is often proffered to be adequete because anything is possible in the supernatural world, which in itself is an assumption. Hide the assumption with another assumption. These are the answers we contend with if we choose to say matter dosen't come out of nowhere, which in itself is no answer to me, hence why I don't believe in either.

 

 

 

Does that not show the limitation that reason meets in itself. Therefore would it be fair for me to suggest there is something higher that trancends both reason and logic. I think when observing reason from a rational standpoint you can only observe its explicit flaws.

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With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

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This has always escaped me. Matter just dosen't appear out of nowhere, but the being we assume created it does? We're substituting self creating matter, which I agree we've got no idea whether it's possible, for a supernatural being creating matter, which is an assumtion adding an entity (often described as a personified figure with the epitome of knowledge, wisdom and love) and is often proffered to be adequete because anything is possible in the supernatural world, which in itself is an assumption. Hide the assumption with another assumption. These are the answers we contend with if we choose to say matter dosen't come out of nowhere, which in itself is no answer to me, hence why I don't believe in either.

 

 

 

Does that not show the limitation that reason meets in itself. Therefore would it be fair for me to suggest there is something higher that trancends both reason and logic. I think when observing reason from a rational standpoint you can only observe its explicit flaws.

 

 

 

I suppose so. I don't quite get it but I'm not saying no god exists.

 

 

 

I don't fully understand the link between reason has limitations, therefore there is something higher that transcends it.

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Reason fails in ultimatley telling us why we have been brought or thrown into existence. Whatever can explain the most important question to us must firstly be higher because its answer is more valuable. It must transcend both reason and logic because it must surpass the limitations that face them.

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With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

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Reason fails in ultimatley telling us why we have been brought or thrown into existence. Whatever can explain the most important question to us must firstly be higher because its answer is more valuable. It must transcend both reason and logic because it must surpass the limitations that face them.

 

 

 

I don't think any intelligent person can deny that, seeing as how even Einstein himself couldn't come up with an explanation of how matter and the first atoms were born out of nothing.

 

 

 

What religion itself fails in is telling people what to do, greedy people using it as a tool to oppress people or brutalize them into killing others, assuming people can communicate with him (or her, do we have any proof a supposed God would even be male?)

 

 

 

If you use religion as something that gives meaning to your life, gives you morals and helps you bring up your children/treat other people better, more power to you...

 

 

 

If you use it to judge others, point out how blasphemous everyone else is that disagrees with your religion, use it to make people afraid and scared... Frankly, you'll probably be in for a big disappointment should you ever meet your "creator".. Or would he be proud of you putting other people down and insulting their beliefs?

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I've never really been keen on the whole original sin concept. So you'd be ok if you had to serve a life sentence for your dad's crimes and your way out was to repent for your sins?

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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I don't believe in God in the sense that he created the world and is watching us right now. There is too much evidence supporting evolution.

 

 

 

I don't see how that's a valid argument. Especially in industrialized western nations with a large christian community (excluding the US), evolution and religion go hand-in-hand. The existence of a God does not automatically exclude the fact evolution happened.

 

 

 

This is true and is something so many religious people just don't get.

 

 

 

People believing in a God really don't bother me. It's faith and I understand that, some people just need to have something reassuring like that in their life. What I don't get is when they completely ignore the fact that evolution is not real simply because of their religion.

 

 

 

I remember reading something a while ago, I don't remember where. The basic premise of it was that if God is all knowing than why couldn't he have simply "jump started" the entire universe, so to speak, and started with just the right materials, timing, whatever so that we would end up where we are now (as humans)?

 

 

 

 

 

The fact is it would be well within the limits of what an "all knowing" and "all powerful" being can do.

 

 

 

I might have gotten a little off-track here but there isn't really anywhere else to post this.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as the original question goes, no I don't believe in God. To be honest I just really don't have any faith in him and disagree with some points that the church (in general) makes. The biggest thing, of course, however is that I just don't have faith -- and even if God was real I don't know if I could see myself praying to such a thing. For me I'd consider myself a strong atheist because, even though I acknowledge the fact that a god could exist (although highly unlikely) I wouldn't want to have anything to do with this God.

 

 

 

 

 

At any rate I guess we'll find out the answer when we die. If I wake up after death and it's really hot I'll know the answer. :wink:

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Reason fails in ultimatley telling us why we have been brought or thrown into existence.

 

A new theory reasons that the universe has always existed -- it was never "created" by a higher force. See my last post for details...

 

http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?p=5452578#5452578

 

 

 

I feel like a broken record. :lol:

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Here's my personal thoughts that I don't intend to make others think/agree.

 

 

 

I'm Catholic but not very religious (only go to church every now and then, for special events, family..). I believe there is a God who made the universe, the laws of physics, evolution, time, and science in general. I see the Bible as just stories to be read for guidance/inspiration/entertainment for anyone who wishes to read it, but I do not see it as concrete evidence for anything (creation of earth, great flood, etc), so it shouldn't be used in scientific debates such as evolution or age of the Earth.

 

 

 

Beliefs can't be proved or disproved, so I just respect whatever people believe in as long as they respect what I or others believe and don't try to turn belief into fact.

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What religion itself fails in is telling people what to do, greedy people using it as a tool to oppress people or brutalize them into killing others, assuming people can communicate with him (or her, do we have any proof a supposed God would even be male?)

 

 

 

 

But religion is not synonymous with something which can explain the thrownness of life. It is simply accepting that reason meets its limits in the unknown which leads to a sort of existentialist view of life. Religion does not fail when it opresses people or brutalizes them into killing others, individuals fail when they adopt such stances. Just as science does not fail when an individual uses it to opress and brutalize others.

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With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

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I'm Catholic but not very religious (only go to church every now and then, for special events, family..). I believe there is a God who made the universe, the laws of physics, evolution, time, and science in general. I see the Bible as just stories to be read for guidance/inspiration/entertainment for anyone who wishes to read it, but I do not see it as concrete evidence for anything (creation of earth, great flood, etc), so it shouldn't be used in scientific debates such as evolution or age of the Earth.

 

 

 

Beliefs can't be proved or disproved, so I just respect whatever people believe in as long as they respect what I or others believe and don't try to turn belief into fact.

 

 

 

I just wish more christians/muslims/etc. would be rational like you and stop using "beliefs" and "faith" as legit currency in a debate about religion.

 

 

 

'Believing' or 'having faith' in something being true, especially in a text, is a logical fallacy. If I post a news article here without a source, people would naturally question "is that really true". I can't reply "no, my friend Bob made it up, but I think it's true" can I?

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with having a religion. But using it as some sort of cloak which shields you from learning scientific facts and how the world really works/how humans became their current state is very strange considering the only proof you'd have is "I just believe God said so".

 

 

 

You can have brains and still be religious like misterxman kindly demonstrated...

 

 

 

Religion does not fail when it opresses people or brutalizes them into killing others, individuals fail when they adopt such stances.

 

 

 

Individuals make up a religion, that's why they are seen either in a good or bad light depending on the situation. 'Religion' isn't a fanclub where you either belong or don't. Religion is your choice of reading certain books, believing certain people and doing certain things your certain book advises you to do.

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Reason fails in ultimatley telling us why we have been brought or thrown into existence. Whatever can explain the most important question to us must firstly be higher because its answer is more valuable. It must transcend both reason and logic because it must surpass the limitations that face them.

 

 

 

Makes sense.

 

 

 

I've never really been keen on the whole original sin concept. So you'd be ok if you had to serve a life sentence for your dad's crimes and your way out was to repent for your sins?

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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The whole free-will thing is a load of crap. I have been a Christian for about 16 years and have recently realized how stupid organzied religion really is. I have read The Bible at least twice through.

 

 

 

If God, according to scripture, has a divine plan, knows every move we make, every hair on our head, then how is it that we have free-will. If God knows from here to the end of His time what will happen and what we will do, then it's not really free-will at all. He controls us in our every move, we may think it is free-will, but it is most definitely not.

 

 

 

All in all, most religions do not make sense to me. I firmly believe that God/Allah/Buddha or any other deity is just a way for humans to think there is something after life. No human can imagine death and nothingness. Have you ever been knocked out before? I have. Try to think back to the time where you were knocked out, not before, not waking up. During knocked out. You can't know it because your brain doesn't recognize it. I think that death is death, and once you're dead, you just don't know. But that's just the human brain; not able to accept eternity. God is a way to have you believe there is something to strive for in life, and if that is what makes your day a happy day and makes your life fufilling, then I say more power to you :)

 

 

 

I am perfectly fine being Agnostic <3:

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"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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I've never really been keen on the whole original sin concept. So you'd be ok if you had to serve a life sentence for your dad's crimes and your way out was to repent for your sins?

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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Range...

 

 

 

Why are you calling yourself a Christian and then proceeding to make statements that say opposite what Christ and the Bible say and then end saying you are agnostic?

 

 

 

Just wondering since the equivalent of your post would be someone making a post saying they were a libertarian communist.

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I've never really been keen on the whole original sin concept. So you'd be ok if you had to serve a life sentence for your dad's crimes and your way out was to repent for your sins?

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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Reason fails in ultimatley telling us why we have been brought or thrown into existence.

 

A new theory reasons that the universe has always existed -- it was never "created" by a higher force. See my last post for details...

 

http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?p=5452578#5452578

 

 

 

I feel like a broken record. :lol:

 

 

 

I like this idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I 'believe' in it. How do you combat something like the paradox of time having been forever before this point in time, for example? I understand vaguely the idea that time itself is cyclic in some of these cyclic universe ideas. Does this solve the paradox? Your thoughts?

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Everyone knows the universe was created by the big bang... Of course, big bangs are preceeded by big crunches, which are caused by the effects of a big bang, which is the result of a big crunch and so on and so forth in a never ending game of "Which-came-first?-The-chicken-or-the-egg" argument on a cosmic scale.

 

 

 

It's amazing how many people accept such intellectual cop-outs as the example above to explain how/why the universe exists, yet argue against against the existence of God due to His existence being paradoxal.

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Everyone knows the universe was created by the big bang... Of course, big bangs are preceeded by big crunches, which are caused by the effects of a big bang, which is the result of a big crunch and so on and so forth in a never ending game of "Which-came-first?-The-chicken-or-the-egg" argument on a cosmic scale.

 

 

 

It's amazing how many people accept such a intellectual cop-outs as the example above to explain how/why the universe exists, yet argue against against the existence of God due to His existence being paradoxal.

 

 

 

And god required no creation because...?

 

 

 

I'm letting it be known I don't accept either as an 'explanation', I accept what is and leave belief to people fo faith.

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It's amazing how many people accept such intellectual cop-outs as the example above to explain how/why the universe exists, yet argue against against the existence of God due to His existence being paradoxal.

 

 

 

I have extensive scientific knowledge of the world and how it was created, but it's impossible to rationally determine how or when, for example, time has begun. Hence the resorting to cop-outs such as "it's not totally impossible God could exist"

 

 

 

Time being cyclic is no different from time being linear, it would still require a beginning. How can something exist for an eternity, yet there has always (for an infinite amount of time) been a previous existence?

 

 

 

I don't think of "God" as a cop-out, I think of it as one of the possible explanations, because concepts such as the 'beginning of time' cannot be explained within logical limitations or human understanding. Something that exists, must have been created somehow.. But how can something come out of nothing while having existed for an eternity? :?

 

 

 

Eternity is a logical fallacy, because it doesn't have a beginning, ending or a creator, thus it shouldn't exist. How can time exist then?

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