Is Social security In USA as bad as "sicko" shows?

[ProZac_Rehab]

Hi everybody,

 

I'm a 20year old Belgian student going for a bachelor in Social Work

 

And a few weeks ago we went to see "Sicko" by Michael Moore.

 

For people that haven't seen it yet, it's about the American system of social security, and how good/bad it is, or how it could be better.

 

What i saw in this documentary shocked me, because the system where i'm familiar with has an approach that is the complete opposite.

 

 

 

My questions to you:

 

Do you have any personal experiences with the american social security system, wether it's GOOD OR BAD?

 

What do you know about foreign systems? are they better, equally good, or worse?

 

In your own opinion, what could/should/must be better?

 

 

 

~Prozac~

[Malhavok]

Actually it is about the American Health Care system.

 

Unfortunately , Moore only shows the bad sides of this system. And he only shows the good sides of other sytems in other countries. Yes ours has problems, I am American, but it can be said about every health care system in any country.

[thargor01]

ok, for the record, I Despise Micheal Moore. but no, he is an extremist, he edits his movies to show everything in a light to prove his point. while our system does have it's faults (and not just a few) it is better than What he makes it out to be.

[magekillr]

ok, for the record, I Despise Micheal Moore. but no, he is an extremist, he edits his movies to show everything in a light to prove his point. while our system does have it's faults (and not just a few) it is better than What he makes it out to be.

 

 

 

but it's not an exaggeration.

 

 

 

talk to any doctor in America...the only ones who feel it needs to stay the same are the ones who are afraid of pay cuts. though a pay cut is bad, seeing people die is worse. i don't know many people in the medical world who don't support reform...and radical reform at that.

 

 

 

to the person asking the question...put it this way:

 

 

 

my family spends thousands on insurance that my father gets. he gets it through his work...and it's a very good plan. we have VERY good insurance. my last hospital visit was because i broke out in hives and couldn't breathe. $100 for the hospital visit...$165 for the doctor's fee. $265 bucks for 4 hours in a hospital AFTER insurance. they didn't even do anything major...hooked me up to an IV, gave me benadryl, asked questions...let me fall asleep from the benadryl.

[BlueLancer]

Haven't seen the movie, but I can tell you the healthcare in continental US (which excludes military bases or overseas facilities operated by US that get preferential treatment) sucks if you're poor.

 

 

 

Healthcare should be available to any person regardless of their wealth, just like in most European countries.

 

 

 

It's mind-blowingly bizarre and idiotic that some people in the US (which is the largest economy in the world) die because they are unable to get medical treatment, mainly because their healthcare provider found a loophole which denies care, or the person/family could not afford paying several hundred dollars a month on top of their other expenses for health insurance.

 

 

 

What kind of a doctor can sleep with a clean conscience, knowing some patients which he turned away due to a lack of money will die while they did nothing wrong and wanted what is a basic right of a human in a developed country?

[insane]

Haven't seen the movie, but I can tell you the healthcare in continental US (which excludes military bases or overseas facilities operated by US that get preferential treatment) sucks if you're poor.

 

 

 

Healthcare should be available to any person regardless of their wealth, just like in most European countries.

 

 

 

It's mind-blowingly bizarre and idiotic that some people in the US (which is the largest economy in the world) die because they are unable to get medical treatment, mainly because their healthcare provider found a loophole which denies care, or the person/family could not afford paying several hundred dollars a month on top of their other expenses for health insurance.

 

 

 

What kind of a doctor can sleep with a clean conscience, knowing some patients which he turned away due to a lack of money will die while they did nothing wrong and wanted what is a basic right of a human in a developed country?

 

 

 

Americans that live on the US-Canada border often have Canadian friends that let them use their health cards and get free care in Canada. What do you think about that?

[ProZac_Rehab]

Haven't seen the movie, but I can tell you the healthcare in continental US (which excludes military bases or overseas facilities operated by US that get preferential treatment) sucks if you're poor.

 

 

 

Healthcare should be available to any person regardless of their wealth, just like in most European countries.

 

 

 

It's mind-blowingly bizarre and idiotic that some people in the US (which is the largest economy in the world) die because they are unable to get medical treatment, mainly because their healthcare provider found a loophole which denies care, or the person/family could not afford paying several hundred dollars a month on top of their other expenses for health insurance.

 

 

 

Sorry for mixing health care and social security up. but health care is a part of social security imo

 

 

 

~Prozac~

 

 

 

What kind of a doctor can sleep with a clean conscience, knowing some patients which he turned away due to a lack of money will die while they did nothing wrong and wanted what is a basic right of a human in a developed country?

 

 

 

Americans that live on the US-Canada border often have Canadian friends that let them use their health cards and get free care in Canada. What do you think about that?

 

 

 

It may be Misuse of the free(cheaper) canadian service, but health is one of the primary needs... I think it's wrong ppl have to misuse another system because their own system leaves them on the streets so to speak. But i can't blame the people who do it.

 

But i'm looking at it from a European point of view, i think.

[angryjoe]

I haven't seen the documentary, but the thing is, would the majority of Americans be willing to pay the increased taxes that would result from having free healthcare?

 

 

 

I suppose it is one of the downsides of having a free market. The rich keep getting richer and the poor get shafted.

 

 

 

However I do believe that it should be a human right to have at least basic healthcare but unfortunately that doesn't look like happening over there.

[dsavi]

Haven't seen the movie, but I can tell you the healthcare in continental US (which excludes military bases or overseas facilities operated by US that get preferential treatment) sucks if you're poor.

 

 

 

 

I have to say, +1, but then...

 

 

 

 

Healthcare should be available to any person regardless of their wealth, just like in most European countries.

 

 

 

...Why not try living in a European country that's socialist for a bit? You have to see both sides of things, you know. I could have paid 2,600 USD for this computer in Finland, but I chose 900 USD in America instead. Listen: It would be less expensive to fly to America and back and buy the computer (Or car or whatever) in America than it would be to stay put an get it in Finland, thanks to our healthcare.

[ProZac_Rehab]

I haven't seen the documentary, but the thing is, would the majority of Americans be willing to pay the increased taxes that would result from having free healthcare?

 

 

 

I suppose it is one of the downsides of having a free market. The rich keep getting richer and the poor get shafted.

 

 

 

However I do believe that it should be a human right to have at least basic healthcare but unfortunately that doesn't look like happening over there.

 

 

 

I notice your from UK...

 

How is health care in UK? Are you happy with the services you get, or should some things change?

[atestarossa]

well, living in Norway i don't know... but when Moore made the movie, he edited out the parts from Norway, because people in the US wouldn't believe how it could be so good in Norway; a socialistic country =P we got as good as free health-care ^^

 

 

 

 

 

(of course, we pay a bit more in taxes, but the only thing that comes out of that, is that the richer pays more, while the poorer less, which is a good thing)

 

 

 

btw: did you know that only 10% of the US population live at the same standards as the average norwegian??

 

 

 

(yeah, I'm lucky as HELL to be born in the country i am)

[ProZac_Rehab]

well, living in Norway i don't know... but when Moore made the movie, he edited out the parts from Norway, because people in the US wouldn't believe how it could be so good in Norway; a socialistic country =P we got as good as free health-care ^^

 

 

 

 

 

(of course, we pay a bit more in taxes, but the only thing that comes out of that, is that the richer pays more, while the poorer less, which is a good thing)

 

 

 

btw: did you know that only 10% of the US population live at the same standards as the average norwegian??

 

 

 

(yeah, I'm lucky as HELL to be born in the country i am)

 

 

 

Do the americans still think socialism=communism= devil?

[angryjoe]

I haven't seen the documentary, but the thing is, would the majority of Americans be willing to pay the increased taxes that would result from having free healthcare?

 

 

 

I suppose it is one of the downsides of having a free market. The rich keep getting richer and the poor get shafted.

 

 

 

However I do believe that it should be a human right to have at least basic healthcare but unfortunately that doesn't look like happening over there.

 

 

 

I notice your from UK...

 

How is health care in UK? Are you happy with the services you get, or should some things change?

Yes it has always been fine for me. In the last few years, I've been to hospital once and it was fine. Every couple of months or so I have something or other that I have to go to the doctors for and have always been very happy with the service. I could probably do without going to the doctors really however I can't really imagine not having access to it if I needed to.

 

 

 

There are alot of complaints about our healthcare system though. It is run very inefficiently. It makes huge losses, which is expected of course being free but they are much higher than they should be. There are almost as many administrative positions as there are nurses.

 

There is also apparently alot of super-bugs going around that are most probably the result of, stupidly, hiring private cleaning firms to clean the hospitals.

 

There are other failings in the NHS that don't spring to mind at the moment and they are only thing that I've heared on the news. My own experiences have been fine, so I can't really complain.

[atestarossa]

well, living in Norway i don't know... but when Moore made the movie, he edited out the parts from Norway, because people in the US wouldn't believe how it could be so good in Norway; a socialistic country =P we got as good as free health-care ^^

 

 

 

 

 

(of course, we pay a bit more in taxes, but the only thing that comes out of that, is that the richer pays more, while the poorer less, which is a good thing)

 

 

 

btw: did you know that only 10% of the US population live at the same standards as the average norwegian??

 

 

 

(yeah, I'm lucky as HELL to be born in the country i am)

 

 

 

Do the americans still think socialism=communism= devil?

 

 

 

Well, i don't know about the stereotype American. But the majority of the politics seems to think along that way, if not that directly. It's common thinking among them that the most important in life is to be free to do whatever they want, to use their money just as they want. America does have small taxes compared to Norway, but the point is that we get it back, as an insurance, that doesn't depend much on how much you pay in.

 

 

 

The Nordic countries does at the moment have the best working governments in the world, which reflexes into how good people live.

 

Norway was in several years in a row now been claimed as winner for being the best land in the world to live in (second place this year, only beaten by Iceland)

 

 

 

Well, back to your question. It's very important to remember how big the actual difference between Socialism and Communism is, the main part being how the economy is ruled. (for the most, we have enough freedom within this as well)

 

 

 

-random fact, The norwegian communist politics, Red (which is for this change in the economy) uses to get about 5-10% of the votes =P

[BlueLancer]

 

...Why not try living in a European country that's socialist for a bit? You have to see both sides of things, you know. I could have paid 2,600 USD for this computer in Finland, but I chose 900 USD in America instead. Listen: It would be less expensive to fly to America and back and buy the computer (Or car or whatever) in America than it would be to stay put an get it in Finland, thanks to our healthcare.

 

 

 

You're grossly over-exaggerating the 'cost-increase effect' of socialist democracies like Finland. The only thing that makes things more expensive is taxation. Your scenario is so unrealistic I had to respond and do research on that.

 

 

 

I browsed a few finnish computer retailers online now, such as this one since you mentioned that, the new computers in Euro prices are very near to those I see for sale in the US, in the 500-$1000 price range on average. Where exactly did you see a computer costing $900 in the US while costing $2,600 in Finland?

 

 

 

That's not the only site I browsed. I can't find a single site selling an average home-user or gaming computer even over $2,000 equivalent in euros, if excluding overpriced Vaio laptops.

 

 

 

The logic that "socialist welfare systems mean nobody can afford anything" has no justification. At most, costs can be slightly increased in nordic countries due to their geographical isolation from mainland Europe and shipping costs.

[Ambassadar]

At most, costs can be slightly increased in nordic countries due to their geographical isolation from mainland Europe and shipping costs.

 

 

 

You are forgetting the added cost of Government Bureaucracy. That cost can be massive. I don't know if it is in Norway's particular case but in general(there are always exceptions) governments do a horribly innefficient job at things when compared to a free market. Just look at FEMA after the hurricane hit New Orleans. Do you want those same idiots running our Healthcare system?

[Necromagus]

Interestingly enough, in Holland, where they're moving towards privatising the health care system, the majority of insurance fraud is performed by doctors rather than patients.

[assassin_696]

At most, costs can be slightly increased in nordic countries due to their geographical isolation from mainland Europe and shipping costs.

 

 

 

You are forgetting the added cost of Government Bureaucracy. That cost can be massive. I don't know if it is in Norway's particular case but in general(there are always exceptions) governments do a horribly innefficient job at things when compared to a free market. Just look at FEMA after the hurricane hit New Orleans. Do you want those same idiots running our Healthcare system?

 

 

 

I agree, although I think in principle it would be lovely if everyone could have access to a perfect healthcare system regardless of financial background, in reality the costs of running such a system through the government are massive, and terribly inefficient. But then again, I don't the US system is a particularly good solution either.

 

 

 

It's a tricky one, and i'm open to suggestions and opinions.

[atestarossa]

^ ^

 

just think, wouldn't the best be to have a little more expensive health care, which everyone can get the fruits of, instead of having a more "effective", and cheaper health care, but which the poorer people can't fully use, because they can't afford it ?

[Barihawk]

So Bluelancer, you are in favor of giving everyone free healthcare, right? That's really going to help the people who can't afford most healthcare...especially when they are starving on the streets.

 

 

 

America makes up the Healthcare fiasco by not imposing huge taxes on everyone like other nations. It's not a terribly good solution, but it's not as bad as the alternative.

 

 

 

There are free clinics all over the United States that are run by privatized hospitals. Michael Moore obviously was spending too much time wondering how he was going to spend his money that he forgot to look up solutions.

 

 

 

My father is a major player in a major hospital system here in Texas. On my way to Starbucks this morning I passed three clinics set up for the less fortunate. They offer every sort of care short of surgery, and grant allowances for that.

 

 

 

Not all corporations are greedy old white men bent on committing genocide like Mr. Moore would have you believe. The man's a sensationalist hack. "Sicko" was so full of holes...

[angryjoe]

At most, costs can be slightly increased in nordic countries due to their geographical isolation from mainland Europe and shipping costs.

 

 

 

You are forgetting the added cost of Government Bureaucracy. That cost can be massive. I don't know if it is in Norway's particular case but in general(there are always exceptions) governments do a horribly innefficient job at things when compared to a free market. Just look at FEMA after the hurricane hit New Orleans. Do you want those same idiots running our Healthcare system?

 

 

 

I agree, although I think in principle it would be lovely if everyone could have access to a perfect healthcare system regardless of financial background, in reality the costs of running such a system through the government are massive, and terribly inefficient. But then again, I don't the US system is a particularly good solution either.

 

 

 

It's a tricky one, and i'm open to suggestions and opinions.

I think that what we have in this country would be fine if the NHS was run more efficiently. I suppose we could also do to cut down on the so called 'post-code lottery' scenarios but in general it is pretty good. There are private healthcare optionsif people can afford and feel the need but the basic healthcare is there when needed.

 

 

 

Thats my opinion anyway.

[assassin_696]

I think that what we have in this country would be fine if the NHS was run more efficiently. I suppose we could also do to cut down on the so called 'post-code lottery' scenarios but in general it is pretty good. There are private healthcare optionsif people can afford and feel the need but the basic healthcare is there when needed.

 

 

 

Thats my opinion anyway.

 

 

 

But the whole problem with the NHS, is that becuase it's a government run organisation it hasn't got the incentive to be efficient like a profit making business would be.

[angryjoe]

But the whole problem with the NHS, is that becuase it's a government run organisation it hasn't got the incentive to be efficient like a profit making business would be.

I don't think that something being in the public sector means that they don't have the incentive to be efficient or make profit. There were plenty of public sector firms making profit before Mad Maggie sold them all. I mean the NHS is, like you said, bound to lose money. However I think that that can be limited and the NHS run efficiently.

 

 

 

I don't know if you watched that thing with Gerry Robinson, but that gave a good insight into some of the failings of the NHS and some of it really was ridiculous. But he did offer some solutions. One was on the lines of privatising it but running it on government funding, which could work.

 

 

 

I just think it really could and should have something done. It doesn't need to be as much of a black hole as it is while also providing a beter service.

[das1330]

Social Security is much better then Micheal Moore would make you believe. There is several gaps in the system which DO need to be fixed badly, but for the vast majority of people, health care is not a big problem. Essentially, if you are

 

 

 

Older, you have Medicare to cover you, (which is a pretty good system)

 

 

 

Ever in the Millitary, you have millitary benefits to cover you (After the VA reforms in the mid 90's, this also became a pretty good system)

 

 

 

and if you are very poor, medcade covers you pretty well.

 

 

 

The biggest gaps in coverage are with the people with too much money to qualify for medicade, but not enough to get private insurance, which is very expensive.

[assassin_696]

But the whole problem with the NHS, is that becuase it's a government run organisation it hasn't got the incentive to be efficient like a profit making business would be.

I don't think that something being in the public sector means that they don't have the incentive to be efficient or make profit. There were plenty of public sector firms making profit before Mad Maggie sold them all. I mean the NHS is, like you said, bound to lose money. However I think that that can be limited and the NHS run efficiently.

 

 

 

I don't know if you watched that thing with Gerry Robinson, but that gave a good insight into some of the failings of the NHS and some of it really was ridiculous. But he did offer some solutions. One was on the lines of privatising it but running it on government funding, which could work.

 

 

 

I just think it really could and should have something done. It doesn't need to be as much of a black hole as it is while also providing a beter service.

 

 

 

I agree with solutions suggested like that, but it's just a general fact that organisations taken off the free market and put into government hands losse their incentive (or at least most of it) to turn a profit. It's why government lead programs are notoriously slow and wasteful.