"Refining/secondary" skills not rewarding enough?

[nightzero]

PLEASE DO NOT POST UNLESS YOU READ MY ENTIRE POST!

 

 

 

EDIT: Here is a thread that I approve of that suggests improvements to these and many other skills. http://[Please Use QuickFind Code].com/c=-4395ea73/[Please Use QuickFind Code]. The link may not take you to the thread so use RSOF quickfind code 24-25-573-57125258

 

 

 

After youve read this thread please click on the link and suggest improvements or just bump it and help jagex see where theyve need to improve.

 

 

 

Now onto the thread.

 

 

 

Herblore, crafting, smithing, cooking and fletching. These 5 will be referred as the refining/secondary skills from now on. These all require raw materials to level and in the end create a usable product. Normally you should profit from refining right? But in Runescape it's not quite that way. In Runescape you actually LOSE money from using these skills. But you will say "Lol noob Subzero-x3 get your own materials." Well then you lose the potential to make money. I tried explaining this in Lightning but unfortunately failed. In this thread I will show you how and why secondary skills arent all that great anymore. Note that I said anymore, because earlier secondary skills used to be profitable and very useful. So let me smart out with the how.

 

 

 

Herblore: I will show 2 popular potions. Prayer potion(which is low level) and saradomin brew(which is high level)

 

 

 

Prayer Potion:

 

Clean Ranarr-6,778>>>

 

Snape Grass-382>>>>Total of all 3-7247

 

Vial of Water-87>>>>

 

Prayer Potion (3)-6,689

 

Money lost-558

 

 

 

Saradomin Brew:

 

Toadflax-2,327>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Crushed Bird Nest-3,915>>>>>>>>>>Total of all 3-6329

 

Vial of Water-87>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Saradomin Brew (3)-4,306

 

Money lost-2,023

 

 

 

"Silly subzero-x3, I am self-sufficient, I get everything myself."

 

In response to that, you could have sold all the raw materials separately and bought the potion, thus saving money.

 

 

 

Crafting:

 

Dragonstone: 39k>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Wool-2 each at lunar isle>>>>>>-total of all 3-39,396

 

Enchant runes-394(if u have either water or earth staff)>>

 

Amulet of Glory-39k

 

Money lost-396

 

 

 

Smithing:

 

Runite bar:13.7k*5=68.5k

 

Rune Platebody-42.5k

 

Money lost-26k!!

 

Btw smithing adamant,mithril,steel,iron and bronze armour all result in losses.

 

 

 

Cooking:

 

Raw Lobster-315

 

Lobster-239

 

Money Lost-76

 

 

 

Raw Shark-1,076

 

Shark-921

 

Money Lost-155

 

So if youre a fisher, sell it raw, you make more profit.

 

 

 

Fletching:

 

 

 

Yew Logs-423>>>>>Total of both-603

 

Bowstring-180>>>>>

 

Yew Longbow-587

 

Money lost-16

 

 

 

The unfortunate thing is that when I raised my fletching from 1-80, i actually made some decent money fletching yew longs..

 

 

 

Next up is the why:

 

Did you know that back in RSC, have high smithing was an amazing way to get money? Yea, since very few people had high lvl smithing rune 2h's were over 1mil. But thats the problem, all these secondary skills have been crowded by people and now that there is too many people trying to "buy" their way to 99, secondary skills are no longer profitable.

 

 

 

Ahhh...here comes the biggest argument.."But I want to get 99 in ___ stat or I wanna get my total up."

 

 

 

But why do you want 99 in something that doesnt give you an advantage over me, and actually wastes money? And as for total, I think it's overrated, I mean c'mon who cares if you're 99 levels higher than me...all you did was burn 234342749234 more logs or cook 2342394789234 more lobsters.

 

 

 

Next biggest argument...."Not everythings about money, I play to have fun!"

 

 

 

Well I guess some peopls idea of fun is like putting 14 snape grass into vials or stringing bows, but really wouldnt it be better it putting 127645 snape grass into vials helped you in some way?

 

 

 

I will add more responses to arguments.

 

 

 

P.S Before you say, noob get your levels up then talk to me, I have 66 crafting, 80 fletching, 86 cooking, 57 herblore and 69 smithing.

 

P.S.S I'm not bragging about those stats^, im just saying i have actually tried those skills..they seem average to me.

 

 

 

Discuss :)

[Georgelemmons]

I do get all my materials, but i wish the stuff was still more profitable..

[Ultimakomoto]

I do wish herblore was still profitable now (it being my favorite skill). However, some people train these skills to be self-sufficent, others just want the total level or cape.

[bbjoe282]

yah id have to agree with you on how annoying this can be. this is really the downfall of the post RWT runescape because supply dosent come close to the demand. also I'd talk about the ever popular gold smelting method of raising smithing.

[Tim_Finch]

People want to get everything as fast as possible. Lots of people. They make these unbalanced, backwards prices to show off a cape. I wonder what the prices would resemble if there were no way to view another player's stats, and no skill capes.

[BabyPunchers]

Skill capes changed everything, people want to be in "99 club" for one reason or another. Although it's questionable why people want to be in the "99 cooking" club.. honestly getting the dye for an orange cape is more of an achievement.

[green9090]

I personally see this as a problem that needs to be solved. It makes sense that you spend money to train to higher levels, but those levels in turn should do something for you. Let's take an example from summoning.

 

 

 

I spend millions upon millions gathering crimson charms and converting them to pouches, and finally arrive at the coveted level of 88. Then I buy cheap unicorn pouches and scrolls, and go out to god wars with it, making millions on the extra bosses I can kill with little extra supplies.

 

 

 

The refining skills don't work quite this way. You get the first part- spending millions for exp. And then... the skill is over. What we need is very high level (90+) abilities in these skills which produce something very valuable for very little exp. The little exp will mean the price is higher than the materials, since people training for the cape will not partake, and suddenly the skill is profitable again. The rewards could also be untradable- what if I could add Grenwall (remember those useless hunter animals in Arandar?) [bleep]es to Bandos armor to give it an extra 10 str bonus- but I'd need 95 smithing to do it and the [bleep]ed Bandos is untradable? What if 90 herblore could make a special coating for the inside of armor that heals an extra 2hp per minute?

 

 

 

Things like this would make training these skills have more of a point than just going for a cape.

[nightzero]

I personally see this as a problem that needs to be solved. It makes sense that you spend money to train to higher levels, but those levels in turn should do something for you. Let's take an example from summoning.

 

 

 

I spend millions upon millions gathering crimson charms and converting them to pouches, and finally arrive at the coveted level of 88. Then I buy cheap unicorn pouches and scrolls, and go out to god wars with it, making millions on the extra bosses I can kill with little extra supplies.

 

 

 

The refining skills don't work quite this way. You get the first part- spending millions for exp. And then... the skill is over. What we need is very high level (90+) abilities in these skills which produce something very valuable for very little exp. The little exp will mean the price is higher than the materials, since people training for the cape will not partake, and suddenly the skill is profitable again. The rewards could also be untradable- what if I could add Grenwall (remember those useless hunter animals in Arandar?) [bleep]es to Bandos armor to give it an extra 10 str bonus- but I'd need 95 smithing to do it and the [bleep]ed Bandos is untradable? What if 90 herblore could make a special coating for the inside of armor that heals an extra 2hp per minute?

 

 

 

Things like this would make training these skills have more of a point than just going for a cape.

 

Green I really like your idea, it would be similar to spottier cape for hunter, right?

[green9090]

Green I really like your idea, it would be similar to spottier cape for hunter, right?

 

Exactly.

[Tim_Finch]

That's a brilliant idea Green. Making things that benefit yourself, not others.

[Celestrana]

People play the game with different objectives and goals. Some play for gee pee, combat and cool armor. Some play for the various skills. People are allowed to play the game however they like. If I want to train farming and herblore with the intention of getting lvl-99, so be it.

 

 

 

Different people, different play styles. Enough said.

[jackjonson]

you messed up your calculations, for instance you forgot to add in the 87.5xp for prayer potions. EVERYTHING has value! time, money, experience, etc... the reason people want the experience isn't universal but those that want it enough cause the gap in the prices.

[Zygimantas]

I love buying vials, herbs, and ingridents to make potions.. even tho I lose millions of gp :thumbsup:

[ydrasil]

There is a reason for this loss in money, and that is experience. Experience is worth something. For example, which your example on prayer potions, you have a loss of 558gp, but also a gain of 87.5 experience. This means that every point of experience has a cost of approximately 6.38gp when levelling using this method - meaning getting this skill to 99 is worth approximately 82.9Million.

 

 

 

It is also not only the experience that matters, the experience might be high and the product very low in demand. This means the product is close to worthless, resulting in more money being lost.

 

 

 

[hide=The Reason Why]Collecting items yourself to make the product is also possible, however selling the items raw rather then the completed product gains you more money with which you can just outright buy them with. However, for this you also used up time. Time is worth money also.

 

 

 

Example, it might have taken 1 minute to collect the items needed for 1 prayer potion, which you sold, and bought the prayer potion. This gains you the desired item with 558gp left over. Having just bought the items, making yourself has a loss of 558gp but a gain of 87.5 experience with no use of time (buying/selling, making the potion can be considered constant and can be taken out of the equation). This means if you value experience as worthless and you can make over 33.5k gp/h on average, it is better off buying the item and going with the loss of time.

 

 

 

To sum up:

 

Collecting yourself:

 

Time taken - 60 seconds

 

Resulting money - +558gp

 

Experience - 0

 

 

 

Buying/Making:

 

Time taken - 0 seconds

 

Resulting money - -558gp

 

Experience - +87.5

 

 

 

This leaves you with a theoretical 60 seconds of "free time". If in this amount of time you can make back the money you would have lost, it is more efficient to buy and make the item. If you value experience higher the amount needed to make per hour is less and makes it even more efficient.[/hide]

 

 

 

This applies with every "refining" skill, even ones that don't have refining.Keep in mind, Runecrafting is also a "refining skill", but it makes money.

 

 

 

Also, it seems you are inferring that people who like training these types of skills are below you (just how I see it).

 

Well unless your idea of fun is like putting 14 snape grass into vials or stringing bows..and if you do have fun stringing bows...you need help. Personally I play to get richer, get combat higher which in turn allows me to buy cooler stuff, own people at cwars with better ways,etc. So yea for me money kinda does equal fun. Money doesnt buy happiness, but it sure does buy cool armour,etc :D

 

Just because you play for those things, does not mean everyone does or should. People do find fishing/cooking/etc. fun, that doesn't mean they need help. It allows the player to multitask whilst training the skill. To me, I find Runecrafting fun and enjoyable, not alot of people do.

 

 

 

For the other argument, you say why would you want something that gives no advantage over you. Not everything is about gaining an advantage. There are alot of people who care about total level/experience/combat, if there wasn't, what need is there for highscores. Why do people bother training a skill up to 200mil? it gains no additional advantage over someone with 13,034,431 experience in that skill after all.

 

 

 

P.S Sorry if my post was long, just wanted to explain my point of view :

[ilya]

But why do you want 99 in something that doesnt give you an advantage over me, and actually wastes money? And as for total, I think it's overrated, I mean c'mon who cares if you're 99 levels higher than me...all you did was burn 234342749234 more logs or cook 2342394789234 more lobsters.

 

 

 

Next biggest argument...."Not everythings about money, I play to have fun!"

 

 

 

Well unless your idea of fun is like putting 14 snape grass into vials or stringing bows..and if you do have fun stringing bows...you need help. Personally I play to get richer, get combat higher which in turn allows me to buy cooler stuff, own people at cwars with better ways,etc. So yea for me money kinda does equal fun. Money doesnt buy happiness, but it sure does buy cool armour,etc

 

 

 

Now there's a huge flaw in your argument there, and why people still do skills like fletching even though they loose money.

 

 

 

Everybody plays Runescape for a different reason and you have to respect that. In your eyes clicking thousands of logs on a tinderbox seems stupid because you don't gain any advantages and just loose money. In somebody else's eyes clicking thousands of logs on a tinderbox means a shiny orange cape, that they show off for hours or that unbeatable feeling of an accomplishment.

 

 

 

People are into different things just like in real world.

[Myweponsg00d]

Welcome to MMORPG's. This is how things always work for production skills. You have to pay your way up to the max level, losing money along the way. I've played WoW and EQ and both of them were like this. However, in WoW for instance, there are really useful things you gain access to that give you a nice profit AFTER you have maxed your level. But, it does cost money to get there. You raise the point of how high level smithing used to make money. Yes, very true. But where all did the R2h, rune kite, and rune battle come from? Nowhere but player smiths. Nowadays a ton of the higher rune stuff comes from monster drops and clue scrolls...it really ruined any chance of high smithing being profitable.

 

 

 

The ONLY reason that none of our skills are profitable is that they cut off so early. Herblore doesnt even make it to level 90 before theres no more potions. However, 92 is the halfway point to being maxed in the skill...what we would really need in order to breathe life into our production skills would be some really special and unique stuff to make in the 95-99 range. All of our products right now are just used for leveling the trade skills, and even the highest level products are hugely abundant. (and a lot is available from monster drops)

 

 

 

I have no idea why even black dhide and rune armor is given out so abundantly in clue rewards and monster drops. Players should be making things that you cant buy from shops or get from drops.

[Atroxide]

The problem isn't that there is more secondary trainers then primary, its that almost all of the secondary items stay in the marketplace after creation.

 

 

 

Primary items can be sold right as you refine them. Once some 1 uses a primary item, that item doesn't exist anymore. With secondary items (Rune 2H from smithing as an example) it stays in the economy and nothing happens to it that will make the amount of Rune 2H's go down.

 

 

 

Smithing used to make alot of money because there was no rune armor in economy. But now since there is there is no need for smithing because we already have the right amount and the act of creating more is unnecessary.

 

 

 

Jagex really needs to fix this.

 

 

 

Example of a fix that jagex could do is maybe create some type of "enchanted" armor/weapons. Where uses can use an item on the metal based (bronze, iron, steel, black, mith, addy, rune, dragon) and be able to make it be more effective. But a side effect of enchanting the armor is that it might be destroyed in the process of enchanting it. That way not only does armor and weapons into the economy from smithing, its also leaving the economy through enchanting.

 

 

 

Jagex has done stuff to reduce this effect, recently with summoning they created a NPC that allowed you to trade your summoning pouches.

[Troacctid]

The problem isn't that there is more secondary trainers then primary, its that almost all of the secondary items stay in the marketplace after creation.

 

 

 

Primary items can be sold right as you refine them. Once some 1 uses a primary item, that item doesn't exist anymore. With secondary items (Rune 2H from smithing as an example) it stays in the economy and nothing happens to it that will make the amount of Rune 2H's go down.

 

 

 

Smithing used to make alot of money because there was no rune armor in economy. But now since there is there is no need for smithing because we already have the right amount and the act of creating more is unnecessary.

 

 

 

Jagex really needs to fix this.

 

 

 

Example of a fix that jagex could do is maybe create some type of "enchanted" armor/weapons. Where uses can use an item on the metal based (bronze, iron, steel, black, mith, addy, rune, dragon) and be able to make it be more effective. But a side effect of enchanting the armor is that it might be destroyed in the process of enchanting it. That way not only does armor and weapons into the economy from smithing, its also leaving the economy through enchanting.

 

 

 

Jagex has done stuff to reduce this effect, recently with summoning they created a NPC that allowed you to trade your summoning pouches.

 

Forget "enchanted" items. We already have enchanted helmets that hold summoning scrolls right? Let's see some flaming weapons! Yeah! A use for firemaking!

 

 

 

Don't forget that another way to solve the problem of "too many Rune 2Hs" is to create new ways of training that aren't endlessly processing inputs into useless outputs. It would be great to see some minigames for fletching or herblore or crafting in the spirit of Pest Control or Vinesweeper.

[Uninstall]

What abour runecrafting it's a secondary skill to in my eyes since you use the pure essence or normal essence (wich are raw matrials) and create something usefull (runes) and you make profit

[Bouwzie]

DO NOT START AN ARGUMENT WITH ME UNLESS YOU READ THE ENTIRE POST!

 

 

 

Next biggest argument...."Not everythings about money, I play to have fun!"

 

 

 

Well unless your idea of fun is like putting 14 snape grass into vials or stringing bows..and if you do have fun stringing bows...you need help. Personally I play to get richer, get combat higher which in turn allows me to buy cooler stuff, own people at cwars with better ways,etc. So yea for me money kinda does equal fun. Money doesnt buy happiness, but it sure does buy cool armour,etc :D

 

 

 

I will add more responses to arguments.

 

 

 

P.S Before you say, noob get your levels up then talk to me, I have 66 crafting, 80 fletching, 86 cooking, 57 herblore and 69 smithing.

 

 

 

Discuss :)

 

 

 

You have quite an attitude there, saying that spending money on skills isn't fun. You are saying that we have to play the game as you want it now. Everybody thinks different, so that isn't a good thing to post. And yes, I know that, for example, herblore is very costly. But as long as I enjoy the road to 99, I'll just get it. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh and it seems as if you are bragging with those stats, but they aren't really something to brag about lol.

[doomy]

What abour runecrafting it's a secondary skill to in my eyes since you use the pure essence or normal essence (wich are raw matrials) and create something usefull (runes) and you make profit

 

Yeah I'd say thats a secondary skill, but what makes Rc different from the others is that you have to actually do something to get xp (run through, abyss, back etc...),which is probaly why you make profit, and that nats are always in high demand.

[RU_Insane]

You know what they say, no pain no gain. The pain in this case is money loss. Get over it.

[Uaexkiller]

ball of wool can actually be bought

[AresArtemis]

Nightzero, you are saying that training a skill means that you lose money. Ofcourse you lose money when when you buy all the materials, but hardly anybody does that.

 

The point about training a skill is that you get exp + money by selling your product. If you are training crafting and you make an amulet by getting most of the materials yourself, you get exp and money, that's how runescape is meant to be played.

[highlanders]

Its the other way around inrl, the finished products are worth than the materials. But in RS, you get exp, and people want exp because they can unlock new stuff, get skillcapes, etc. While inrl producing stuff is just a pain in the [wagon], you don't do it unless you have a business or something...