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Charging for item lending moral?


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#41
Numer0_un0
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The reason it's against the rules is not because it's immoral, but because it is impossible to control. Say you are lending an item for 3k. You have two options here. One, you can collect your 3k before you lend out the item. In this case, you could just pocket the money and walk away, as the old "trust trade" scam went. In the second case, you lend the item for a select period of time, and then collect. This time, the other player can just walk away with the lent item and you are out of luck until the time period is over. If you choose to lend until one player logs out, then you are back to the first situation of you walking away, or, in this case, logging out, and you pocket the profit without any penalty.



It's against the rules because of the possibility of scammers promising to lend an item just so they can get rich and it would be a nightmare for customer support to sort through the valid complaints of scamming.




It's not against the rules, or the very numerous threads in Armor&Weapons that have "renting X item $$$K an hour"

are not locked. Also, the sticky for lending items specifically says that thread is not for Renting, or Charging people to borrow an item, yet there are tons of posts advertising borrowing X godsword $$K/hour and vice verca. They're not hidden.
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#42
Numer0_un0
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jagex mods has said its reportable to charge money for lending items. gf




See above post. Also,



RULE 12: Game items must only be exchanged for other items/services within the game.




To quote someone again, just earlier in this thread someone wrote that item lending is a service, no? Well, ingame coins are an item. And they are within the game. So they're going to have to change rule 12 if they make this illegal...
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#43
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time = money



so asking some k's for you item is ok imo. BUT i don't lend out items, only items people want r dfs + fury, fury i use myself and dfs is not lendable



jagex mods has said its reportable to charge money for lending items. gf




wooo you're cool for flaming us while we are DISCUSSING if it's reasonable to ask money for item lending, we're not talkin' how much for what item for what time.

#44
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The reason it's against the rules is not because it's immoral, but because it is impossible to control. Say you are lending an item for 3k. You have two options here. One, you can collect your 3k before you lend out the item. In this case, you could just pocket the money and walk away, as the old "trust trade" scam went. In the second case, you lend the item for a select period of time, and then collect. This time, the other player can just walk away with the lent item and you are out of luck until the time period is over. If you choose to lend until one player logs out, then you are back to the first situation of you walking away, or, in this case, logging out, and you pocket the profit without any penalty.



It's against the rules because of the possibility of scammers promising to lend an item just so they can get rich and it would be a nightmare for customer support to sort through the valid complaints of scamming.




It's not against the rules, or the very numerous threads in Armor&Weapons that have "renting X item $$$K an hour"

are not locked. Also, the sticky for lending items specifically says that thread is not for Renting, or Charging people to borrow an item, yet there are tons of posts advertising borrowing X godsword $$K/hour and vice verca. They're not hidden.


Just because it isn't hidden doesn't mean that it isn't against the rules. Here's proof:



[Source]

Charging or offering gold to “rent” an item is effectively a trust trade. There is no guarantee that either party will honour their end of the offer.



------



Hi ***********,



Please do not offer rentals of items as this is classed as 'trust trading' and is not allowed. Please read the opening post of this thread for more information.



Thanks,

Mod Dave


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#45
Giant_Torti
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It seemed pretty obvious that they wouldn't allow "renting" items to other players by charging cash. They'll surely add this rule somewhere soon.


No rule to add, its a form of 'trust trading' and therefore reportable in the time honoured tradition.



Here's what one forum mod had to say.



Don't like it? Don't lend would seem to be the answer.



Imo, even if it wasn't against the rules, charging for lending an item is against the spirit of the game and defeats the object of doing a friend a favour. You want your item to make you money? Press it into use by skilling with it or sell it.

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#46
jenova1692
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Press it into use by skilling with it or sell it.




So I'm assuming you've come up with a method to skill with a party hat? I find your post extremely stupid. How is it "against the spirit of the game". You seem to know what your talking about so do enlighten us on what "the spirit of the game" is.

#47
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Press it into use by skilling with it or sell it.




So I'm assuming you've come up with a method to skill with a party hat? I find your post extremely stupid. How is it "against the spirit of the game". You seem to know what your talking about so do enlighten us on what "the spirit of the game" is.




Oooh, touch a ickle nerve did I? :roll:



Well since you've decided to mention rare's as an example, you'll no doubt be aware that there is and continues be a market for these items, one way of skilling with these types of items is to predict/guess/calculate or similar the rise or fall in price of said item for trading resulting in the owner gaining more wealth. The act of demonstrating the command of the accumulated wealth, ie, buying and selling these items is the logical progression of obtaining the skill in the above. Does that fit into your description of skill?



Spirit of the game? Depends on the context, but I think here its undertaking of a act without seeking a tangible gain. If you like charging for every least thing you do in this game, fine by me and all that, but the community at large don't expect to be billed for every nice thing that happens to them.



Edit: I did also put 'or sell it' in case you phailed to observe that?

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#48
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or how bout another "skill" related to rares, using your own vast wealth to buy a rare and then let others use for a VERY small fraction of that cost. And undertaking of an act without tangible gain? By that you mean doing something to get money? Well that contradicts what you said earlier about buying and selling rares. You are gaining money by giving someone else what they want, which happens to be almost exactly the same as renting an item out, except renting is targeting a less wealthy audience. So now buying or selling anything is against the "spirit of the game". What is the GE for?

#49
Giant_Torti
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or how bout another "skill" related to rares,


Go suggest it to the right people?



or how bout another "skill" related to rares, using your own vast wealth to buy a rare and then let others use for a VERY small fraction of that cost.


A trust trade is still a trust trade, even if its for a 'VERY small fraction of that cost'.



And undertaking of an act without tangible gain? By that you mean doing something to get money?


Well done, yes, though not necessarily money on every occasion.



Well that contradicts what you said earlier about buying and selling rares.


No, not really. If you want to permanently move item-x to your account, you have to part with amount-y in value, if you manage to convince someone else at a undefined period of time later to pay amount-z which is higher, this could be put down to your skill in buying/selling.

Renting a item in manner that has been described here and on the RSOF, along with the current trading system is considered a form of trust trading.

So now buying or selling anything is against the "spirit of the game". What is the GE for?


Were you unable to read my previous post in its entirety? You asked me to 'enlighten' you on what I felt the spirit of the game is, I specified that its usage was dependent on the context of how it is being applied.

I didn't say buying or selling was against the spirit of the game, so wise up and try not to put words in my mouth eh?

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#50
jenova1692
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I like how all of your counter-arguments just referred to "trust trades" and not to your original arguments, like mine did.



Go suggest it to the right people?


ok...when i said "skill" that was referring to the "skill" you mentioned earlier known as merchanting, and yes you indirectly mentioned that it was a skill



A trust trade is still a trust trade, even if its for a 'VERY small fraction of that cost'.


That has nothing to do with the relation between my argument and yours. And I never said anything about "trust trades" being against the rules, just that item lending is neither immoral nor "against the spirit of the game".



No, not really. If you want to permanently move item-x to your account, you have to part with amount-y in value, if you manage to convince someone else at a undefined period of time later to pay amount-z which is higher, this could be put down to your skill in buying/selling.

Renting a item in manner that has been described here and on the RSOF, along with the current trading system is considered a form of trust trading.




And using your buying/selling skill to decide what item is best to buy if you want to rent it out to others is directly related to your first argument. For your second argument....what does that have to do with any of my posts, or even yours for that matter?



Were you unable to read my previous post in its entirety? You asked me to 'enlighten' you on what I felt the spirit of the game is, I specified that its usage was dependent on the context of how it is being applied.

I didn't say buying or selling was against the spirit of the game, so wise up and try not to put words in my mouth eh?




I was not putting words in your mouth, I was making logical assumptions about your thoughts based on earlier arguments. You have yet to make a logical argument describing how your words could not lead someone to the conclusions I made, nor have you said how this particular "context" is "against the spirit of the game".



oh and this is something I forgot to add in earlier



Oooh, touch a ickle nerve did I? :roll:




Yeah, stupid people do that to me :lol:

#51
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Irrespective of whether you don't and I do feel charging for item lending is immoral, its against the rules.

Sure you or anyone else for that matter, can keep rolling the dice with respect to the rules, scraping money from other players, but eventually the odds will inevitably turn against you and the rest of us will chuckle heartily at the posts in the 'I was unfairly muted/banned' thread.

Oooh, touch a ickle nerve did I? :roll:




Yeah, stupid people do that to me :lol:




Is that all you got? Come on, I'll take your best shot. If the best your up to is calling me stupid, who's the mug risking there account just for the shallow profit of the pursuit of wealth, only for it all to be taken away with no recourse?

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#52
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Why's everyone only questioning whether charging money is in the spirit of the game or not? Begging is a much worse offender of not being in the spirit of the game. And charging is the answer to begging. If nobody begged to be lent items, nobody would be charged. Item lending is meant for friends, just as it used to be when players trusted each other. It's not a way to randomly distribute items across the entire community to everyone who asks. And charging balances that out.

#53
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I like how you assume that I am breaking this "rule". I have only lent out one item, and it was the person who insisted he give me some of the logs he cut with it.



Is that all you got? Come on, I'll take your best shot. If the best your up to is calling me stupid, who's the mug risking there account just for the shallow profit of the pursuit of wealth, only for it all to be taken away with no recourse?




no thats not the best I got, but I might get banned if I give that to you. And you tell me, who is the person risking their account for shallow profit? Cause it isn't me.

#54
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Honestly, i think that Mod that said that its against the rules to "trust trade" is a total idoit. There is nothing in the rule book that says its illegal to "trust trade." I haven't even used item lending yet...
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#55
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Due to recent feedback, I would like to highlight that offering GP for Item Lending in-game is fine, however we do not allow this on the Forums.

(from Makoto's link)



It is within the rules to charge for lending in-game, but thye don't wanna see it wasting space on the forums. If you're offering gp, you should know that you might lose it.

I find moralities to be a personal opinion, and whether or not it's moral is decided by the lender/rentee. It's all just a business.

#56
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Due to recent feedback, I would like to highlight that offering GP for Item Lending in-game is fine, however we do not allow this on the Forums.

(from Makoto's link)



It is within the rules to charge for lending in-game, but thye don't wanna see it wasting space on the forums. If you're offering gp, you should know that you might lose it.

I find moralities to be a personal opinion, and whether or not it's moral is decided by the lender/rentee. It's all just a business.






I think this basically solves the issue of legal or not.

We are allowed to pay for items that we borrow. I look at is as more of a tip, since its such a small amount of such expensive items.



I would assume that since we can offer money for it, we can also charge money for it, just not on the forums.
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#57
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The reason it's against the rules is not because it's immoral, but because it is impossible to control. Say you are lending an item for 3k. You have two options here. One, you can collect your 3k before you lend out the item. In this case, you could just pocket the money and walk away, as the old "trust trade" scam went. In the second case, you lend the item for a select period of time, and then collect. This time, the other player can just walk away with the lent item and you are out of luck until the time period is over. If you choose to lend until one player logs out, then you are back to the first situation of you walking away, or, in this case, logging out, and you pocket the profit without any penalty.



It's against the rules because of the possibility of scammers promising to lend an item just so they can get rich and it would be a nightmare for customer support to sort through the valid complaints of scamming.




In either case you are able to report. Since you are ignoring potential punishment, I guess playing Runescape should be against the rules, since it's impossible to 100% prevent bug abuse...

#58
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I realize that Jagex did not release item lending with all of this stuff in mind, but I do not think they should tell people they can not rent out an item. Several reasons for this.

1. If done without scamming in mind, it is "fair"(some people may disagree but whatever) business that is practiced even in the real world. If a person spends money on an item, they should be able to do with it as the please.

2. This gives many players a chance to try out items they would not be able to normally. Yes you may say that they can just lend one for free if this is banned, but how many people do you think would actually let people borrow their god swords to strangers if charging is not an option?



Now someone brought up scamming as a reason that they should ban this. Well, if Jagex is really that concerned about gullible people getting scammed, then they should implement a way to charge per hour when lending someone an item, similar to trading. The person renting out the item will set a price per hour in the lend screen, and all the other normal options. The person renting the item will offer up gold, and upon completion of the lend, the gold will go in the same place that money on the GE goes. This will then be fed to the owner of the item each hour, based on the hourly term. When either the money or the timer runs out, the item is returned and any leftover gold will be returned to original owner.

#59
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Well, this is similar to the "free gem cutting" thing back before the request assist system. It should only be reportable if they don't lend you the item.

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#60
jenova1692
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I think it would be silly to ban someone for offering to rent an item just because they might get scammed.



Jagex: "well we want to protect your account, so to prevent you from ever getting scammed we will ban you."




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