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#50101
Riku3220
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Everyone on my Facebook is arguing about what people can use what restrooms. I never really cared because I'm always going to use the mens' room no matter who uses it. It wasn't until someone suggested unisex restrooms that I suddenly gained an opinion. We should never ever allow unisex restrooms to even be considered in this debate. Ignoring the fact that every public building ever has restrooms designed around sets of 2 and building a new restroom would require a crapton of renovations, unisex restrooms would mean the death of cleanliness and efficiency.

 

"Hold on Riku. Cleanliness? Rarely is a public restroom ever clean!" you say. However I was a janitor for a time, and I've somehow always ended up with the task of cleaning both the mens' and womens' restroom at every job I've ever had. I believe that anyone that's ever had to clean both the mens' and womens' restrooms will agree with me when I say that on any given day, the womens' restroom will always, ALWAYS be messier and more gross than the mens' room. At worst the mens' room will have a little bit of pee on the seat and some toilet paper on the floor. Maybe the guy before you didn't flush. Gross right? But womens' rooms have those problems too but worse. They get pee on the seat and floor because they don't actually sit on the toilet seat, they try to squat and their anatomy doesn't really help with aim in this situation. They'll haphazardly throw their used pads and tampons towards the trash can. No not into, towards, and if it doesn't go in too bad I guess, somebody else will get that eventually! Maybe they'll just feel like being jerks and instead of throwing them into the trash can, they throw them into the toilet, causing the toilet to clog and leaving a gross watery/uriney/poopy/bloody mixture for somebody to find. There's also the much higher possibility of dirty diapers just being left on the diaper change table in the womens' room than the mens'.

 

Unisex restrooms would also destroy the efficiency I absolutely love about mens' restrooms. I don't know how, but at any place where there's a lot of people around (sports games, amusement park, etc.) the mens' room is a quick and easy in and out and the womens' room has a line longer than what I expect it should be. What the hell are they doing in there that a queue forms up behind them? If you go to an event where there are porta-potties you should time how long it takes for men to get in and out and for women to get in and out. It's taking women full minutes longer and I can't even begin to understand why. If unisex bathrooms were to come into play they'd probably get rid of urinals (the ultimate tool of restroom efficiency) in order to make space for more stalls (oppressive barriers that have broken/crappy locks half the time). Sure, turning both restrooms unisex will halve the time for women, but it'll double the time for men, which is unacceptable to me. Women need to figure their shit out without pushing some of the problem onto us.

 

Whatever your stance on the restroom debate is, just make sure you're against unisex restrooms.


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#50102
Veiva
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In North Carolina, the bathroom portion of the bill was a smokescreen used to hide the gratuitous erosion of worker protections. It's frustrating that bathrooms are the primary focus.

No localized minimum wage increases (because Raleigh/Charlotte/Durham has the same cost of living as Rural McCraptown), can't use the state courts for anti-discrimination cases, and no civil rights protections beyond the bare minimum (race/sex/religion/disability/etc; not sexual orientation, or other status) throughout the entire state.

Admittedly those agreeing the bathroom provision are wrong. Sexual assault, obscentity, and such are already illegal; the creation of this law is equivalent to forcing saucepans to remain in the kitchen because there's a chance someone could use a saucepan to beat you to death. Assault and murder are illegal already, and saucepans are not used as murder weapons by any measurable quantity, so why make it harder for chefs and cooks? Not to mention it appears women and girls are the only victims of the faux-transgender predator, because there's never any discussion over women using men's restrooms. What about men and boys?! And transgendered people are victims of sexual assault at much higher rates than the normal population, but let's forget about that as well!

Regardless, the rest of the bill negatively affects everyone in this state.

(To be honest, I'd have no problems with unisex bathrooms if the population at large was barely functional. I worked as a janitor as well, and the women's bathrooms were always worse. But when 100% of some 200+ drivers are unable to handle a traffic jam near an intersection, I question how this world functions when people are just so terrible at functioning.)

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#50103
Ring_World
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The strong taboo of men entering women's restrooms greatly decreases the likelihood for voyeurism.

Your argument isn't comparable. It's more akin to gun control where both parties being disarmed in an argument prevents people acting on rash decisions. Think Zimmerman

#50104
Hedgehog
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The whole premise is dumb. Like, I get that people want to keep men out of women's restrooms...but it literally forces FtM transgender individuals into women's restrooms. You know, the ones who look like, and identify as, men. 



#50105
Veiva
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The strong taboo of men entering women's restrooms greatly decreases the likelihood for voyeurism.

Your argument isn't comparable. It's more akin to gun control where both parties being disarmed in an argument prevents people acting on rash decisions. Think Zimmerman


No, you're wrong. My analogy is flawed in some part, yes, but not as you appear to think (and your analogy makes zero sense). First of all, transgender females (i.e., male-to-female) are not men, so men are not using women's restrooms. Secondly, unless you can show me numbers of sexual assaults committed under the guise of being transgender, your opinion is worthless like those who pushed the "Bathroom Bill" through the NC legislature, sorry to say.

A law against a non-existent threat is a pointless law. Even worse, this is a law to disenfranchise a minority further under the guise of a non-existent threat.

But since MTF are no longer identify as male and no longer appear as such, and since there is no data supporting predators using a transgender guise to commit sexual assault, you can only attempt to be pedantic or arrogant (you took a discrete math course, wow, good job!) like the last time this discussion appeared. If so, I'm not furthering the discussion.

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#50106
obfuscator
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The strong taboo of men entering women's restrooms greatly decreases the likelihood for voyeurism.

Your argument isn't comparable. It's more akin to gun control where both parties being disarmed in an argument prevents people acting on rash decisions. Think Zimmerman


No, you're wrong. My analogy is flawed in some part, yes, but not as you appear to think (and your analogy makes zero sense). First of all, transgender females (i.e., male-to-female) are not men, so men are not using women's restrooms. Secondly, unless you can show me numbers of sexual assaults committed under the guise of being transgender, your opinion is worthless like those who pushed the "Bathroom Bill" through the NC legislature, sorry to say.

A law against a non-existent threat is a pointless law. Even worse, this is a law to disenfranchise a minority further under the guise of a non-existent threat.

But since MTF are no longer identify as male and no longer appear as such, and since there is no data supporting predators using a transgender guise to commit sexual assault, you can only attempt to be pedantic or arrogant (you took a discrete math course, wow, good job!) like the last time this discussion appeared. If so, I'm not furthering the discussion.


Except last time I provided an example of an increase in sexual assaults in unisex bathrooms and you ignored it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

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#50107
Veiva
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The strong taboo of men entering women's restrooms greatly decreases the likelihood for voyeurism.

Your argument isn't comparable. It's more akin to gun control where both parties being disarmed in an argument prevents people acting on rash decisions. Think Zimmerman


No, you're wrong. My analogy is flawed in some part, yes, but not as you appear to think (and your analogy makes zero sense). First of all, transgender females (i.e., male-to-female) are not men, so men are not using women's restrooms. Secondly, unless you can show me numbers of sexual assaults committed under the guise of being transgender, your opinion is worthless like those who pushed the "Bathroom Bill" through the NC legislature, sorry to say.

A law against a non-existent threat is a pointless law. Even worse, this is a law to disenfranchise a minority further under the guise of a non-existent threat.

But since MTF are no longer identify as male and no longer appear as such, and since there is no data supporting predators using a transgender guise to commit sexual assault, you can only attempt to be pedantic or arrogant (you took a discrete math course, wow, good job!) like the last time this discussion appeared. If so, I'm not furthering the discussion.


Except last time I provided an example of an increase in sexual assaults in unisex bathrooms and you ignored it because it doesn't fit your narrative.


Great, but unisex bathrooms aren't gender segregated and are therefore irrelevant to both my recent posts!

(What was the example? I'll look for it, but to be honest, I don't remember anyone citing any data or studies.)

edit: is this what you're talking about? That's not data.

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#50108
obfuscator
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I never said I provided data, I said I provided an example, which I did. The point is that when a bathroom is not obviously restricted by gender, it makes it more easy for people to take advantage of the rules.

I also don't think the complaints deal with actual transgender individuals (which I also mentioned last time); they deal with other people taking advantage.

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#50109
Veiva
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I never said I provided data, I said I provided an example, which I did. The point is that when a bathroom is not obviously restricted by gender, it makes it more easy for people to take advantage of the rules.

I also don't think the complaints deal with actual transgender individuals (which I also mentioned last time); they deal with other people taking advantage.


Bathrooms would still be segregated in North Carolina (excluding private institutions doing what they will). The "Bathroom Bill" targets a subset of existing gender-segregated bathrooms (those owned by government entities mostly), requiring one to use the bathroom corresponding to their birth certificate when it applies. A FTM using a men's bathroom is now illegal, and a MTF using a female's bathroom is now illegal. There was no issue before. Predators were not claiming to be transgender to commit sexual assault and transgendered individuals could use the bathroom corresponding to their identified gender without breaking laws. However, now using the bathroom of the identified gender is illegal, while sexual assault was illegal and still is illegal. (Again, "bathrooms" refers to the subset covered by the bill.)

And I cede whatever argument I made about unisex bathrooms. I seriously don't care: if unisex bathrooms could work (remain clean, be efficient), fine. It's superficial and pointless because bathrooms as-is currently work, until aforementioned legislation is passed.

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#50110
obfuscator
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Thanks. I didn't know much about the actual bill in question.

I don't know what the solution is to the situation, but it's definitely not going away. I suppose as more different things are tried it will become clear what works and what doesn't.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti


#50111
Veiva
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Thanks. I didn't know much about the actual bill in question.

I don't know what the solution is to the situation, but it's definitely not going away. I suppose as more different things are tried it will become clear what works and what doesn't.


What's worse is the bathroom portion of the bill is a smokescreen. Again, it's a bill that rewinds worker protections and affects all citizens of North Carolina.

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#50112
Hedgehog
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Thanks. I didn't know much about the actual bill in question.

I don't know what the solution is to the situation, but it's definitely not going away. I suppose as more different things are tried it will become clear what works and what doesn't.

The solution is pretty apparent to me. People just gotta stop being so damn uncomfortable with sexual and gender minorities. Or just minorities in general.



#50113
Major Dash
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Hot porn in the spoilers

 


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“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 


#50114
Alg
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What's worse is the bathroom portion of the bill is a smokescreen. Again, it's a bill that rewinds worker protections and affects all citizens of North Carolina.

I have to admit that I'm having a hard time taking them seriously when this is the sort of shit you would see in a trashy dystopian novel. I mean, it's still infuriating to hear about this repeating in a new state almost weekly and its supporters just need to grow the [bleep] up, but it's like the entire country has devolved into a hilariously satirical version of itself and I can appreciate that on some level.
 
On a highly unrelated note: I have been drawing and painting nothing but birds for the last month. Please send help and/or more pictures of birds that I can use as references.



#50115
jasignhagj
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.



#50116
RpgGamer
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We have to accept that America is becoming an even shittier place over time, and this time next year it could be even worse
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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.




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#50117
obfuscator
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We have to accept that America is becoming an even shittier place over time, and this time next year it could be even worse


right, except that's not close to being true

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#50118
Riku3220
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We have to accept that America is becoming an even shittier place over time, and this time next year it could be even worse

I don't think trans people being unable to use the bathroom they want to use is going to be the downfall of America.
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#50119
Veiva
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We have to accept that America is becoming an even shittier place over time, and this time next year it could be even worse

I don't think trans people being unable to use the bathroom they want to use is going to be the downfall of America.


Although I don't agree the US is getting worse at large (though it's not getting better), there is a hard push from the right to rollback protections for workers, minorities, voters, and citizens at large resulting in disastrous local and federal outcomes. See: Voting Rights Act of 1965 being neutered and Congress not rectifying this (2013), pro-Christian/anti-everyone-else "Religious Freedom" bills and anti-LGBT legislation in numerous states, rise of racism against Arabs (e.g., Islamophobia) and fissures between whites and blacks/hispanics (e.g., "Black Lives Matter", spotlighted hatred of illegal immigrants), invasive privacy violations and government overreach over the terrorist boogeyman, ...

To be more precise, yes, you're right--neither bathroom legislation or transphobia will cause some downfall (and I think RpgGamer was referring to the larger issue of prejudism rather than the transgender subset). But the increasing fervor of right (far-right by Western standards rather than US standards, in all honesty) is indeed causing issues for everyone, and most definitely for minorities.

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#50120
Lower Levelled
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Don't understand the same people that argue gun free zone signs are helpless are the ones advocating for binary bathrooms





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