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I still think e voting is fundamentally flawed because of auditing. You can't verify that the machine you are voting on is running the software people say it is running, and the same problem exists with the system that ultimately tallies the votes. You are replacing the massive oversight that exists for a paper election with a single entity that totally promises to count the votes accurately, scouts honour. I also find the idea of inserting something like a voter ID card to be absolutely terrifying, because you could very easily use a system like that tie votes to people's identities, and it is crucial that votes be anonymous (if you can verify how someone has cast their vote, you can threaten or bribe them). Yes, a properly implemented system would be able to verify eligibility and prevent double voting without verifying identity. The problem, as always, is knowing that the voting machines actually use such a system.

 

Also, keep in mind just how much incentive there is to manipulate the national elections of the major world powers. The financial stakes of elections in countries like the USA can climb into the Trillions, and the people who would be trying to manipulate them are government agencies. We've seen what governments can do when they put their mind to cyberwarfare already.

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Saying that the thing is fundamentally flawed is wrong.

 

It works.

 

It has worked for multiple national elections now.

 

Last time over half of the votes were made electronically, afaik.

There still is the issue that there ain't that much to gain from hacking our votes, but still, it is a whole country in EU. There is the incentive.

 

I still think that the person is easier to manipulate than a computer. How can you verify that everyone who votes for the "right" candidate on paper isn't getting $100 just around the corner from the ballot station? Ok, well it is a bit extreme example, but still, the point remains.

And I do know of cases where homeless fellas have been bought off to vote for a bottle of vodka.


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So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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Regarding online voting, here in Estonia pretty much everyone has 256-bit encrypted physical ID-cards that have to be inserted to a card reader connected to the computer you are voting from.

For outside attacks, there ain't powerful machines yet to decrypt the data and it is absolutely anonymous for everyone.

 

The system has been compromised since it's beginning in 2008, but subsequent releases of higher encryption and bug fixes have made the system pretty freaking reliable. The software looks shitty as hell, since it has been the same thing already from like 2005 earliest versions, but it works.

It's a bit more than encryption. For example, here is a message encoded in base64 with "256-bit" encryption:

 

U2FsdGVkX19t/RLxDa2pmcx3EdBqAaWYXyZ4H7YiU2GSssatR+64j9tc/IHI2DOA

 

However, only I know the contents of the message. As a result, it's pointless. There has to be a central authority to count and verify votes.

 

And regarding Estonia, its electronic voting system seems to be incredibly flawed. Can you dismiss any claims made here?

 

 

I mean some encryption algorithms are set up to handle a digital signature. Whats wrong with using those?

 

403d42ab56a335bc3b7045c2ce359fd5.png1f5a7d3190c4f5cac98db85dfffa3cf6.png

 

All voting would require is verification of the identity of the sender and that the message isn't tampered with by a man in the middle attack

 

Well, in that case, Diffie-Hellman itself is way outdated and it isn't hard at all to find the discrete logarithm in a decent amount of time (still NP, but not too bad).

 

But yeah, that's what SSL/TSL is. Each website you visit that uses SSL has a public key and you use that to encrypt your data.

 

As great as SSL is (and you should absolutely use it whenever you can), it only secures the communication. It doesn't secure the client, it doesn't secure the server, and it definitely doesn't secure the user. You still have to worry about phishing, CSRF, database breaches, malicious browser extensions, and cards literally being lost, stolen, or destroyed.

 

You can secure the server pretty well, and you can secure the communication, but you will never be able to secure the client.

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Non digital ballots are easier to manipulate with corrupt local governments, whereas digital ballots if manipulated can wreck a whole countries elections.

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Saying that the thing is fundamentally flawed is wrong.

 

It works.

 

It has worked for multiple national elections now.

 

Last time over half of the votes were made electronically, afaik.

There still is the issue that there ain't that much to gain from hacking our votes, but still, it is a whole country in EU. There is the incentive.

 

I still think that the person is easier to manipulate than a computer. How can you verify that everyone who votes for the "right" candidate on paper isn't getting $100 just around the corner from the ballot station? Ok, well it is a bit extreme example, but still, the point remains.

And I do know of cases where homeless fellas have been bought off to vote for a bottle of vodka.

Estonia is a forum of 10 users using phpBB with plain-text passwords. It's not secure, but no one bothers because the potential is useless.

 

The United States is... PayPal. A prime target with an immense amount of potential. Targeting an individual PayPal account is worth it, just like targeting PayPal itself.

 

Do you see the difference?

 

(Also, "homeless fellas" can't show who they voted for in the USA. Buying votes is very difficult because the buyer does not know. I could take $100 and vote for the opposite, and it's simply my word.)


ozXHe7P.png

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To be fair the biggest violators of voters fraud are in the Senate and Congress. They vote for each other during bathroom breaks and shit it's silly.


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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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Saying that the thing is fundamentally flawed is wrong.

 

It works.

 

It has worked for multiple national elections now.

 

Last time over half of the votes were made electronically, afaik.

There still is the issue that there ain't that much to gain from hacking our votes, but still, it is a whole country in EU. There is the incentive.

 

I still think that the person is easier to manipulate than a computer. How can you verify that everyone who votes for the "right" candidate on paper isn't getting $100 just around the corner from the ballot station? Ok, well it is a bit extreme example, but still, the point remains.

And I do know of cases where homeless fellas have been bought off to vote for a bottle of vodka.

Because it only matters if you pay tens of thousands of people $100, and none of those tens of thousands of people tell someone that you're doing it or even that you offered. You can get some anonymity with the internet and like bitcoin, but nothing like the anonymity of malware on people's machines. Especially public machines, like those at a public library, where probably lots of people are going to go to vote.

 

I mean, you can get other governments involved in the malware and then it's really trouble. Better hope Estonia doesn't piss another country off enough to pay for malware creation.


My skin is finally getting soft
I'll scrub until the damn thing comes off

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But I don't think the person who plays the role of president matters much.

He might be the biggest comedy goldmine since Bush though!

 

...Wait, the Bush era brought us Family Guy. Never mind.

 

But Family Guy came out when Clinton was still in office.

 

 

Nothing like a failed pop culture reference. 


tFtfA.jpg

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Wish me luck with my homework lol

 

c1f0fee253fd2665b740765e5b9681b5.png

Do you want my fast powering code lol

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But I don't think the person who plays the role of president matters much.

He might be the biggest comedy goldmine since Bush though!

 

...Wait, the Bush era brought us Family Guy. Never mind.

But Family Guy came out when Clinton was still in office.

Nothing like a failed pop culture reference. 

Post-cancellation, though? I don't really keep track please just let me have this dumb pop culture reference, shitty jokes are all I have left

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Wish me luck with my homework lol

 

 

Do you want my fast powering code lol

 

 

Nah they're teaching it like a math class so I have to know how to do it with pen and paper (and a calculator)

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Saying that the thing is fundamentally flawed is wrong.

 

It works.

 

It has worked for multiple national elections now.

 

Last time over half of the votes were made electronically, afaik.

There still is the issue that there ain't that much to gain from hacking our votes, but still, it is a whole country in EU. There is the incentive.

 

I still think that the person is easier to manipulate than a computer. How can you verify that everyone who votes for the "right" candidate on paper isn't getting $100 just around the corner from the ballot station? Ok, well it is a bit extreme example, but still, the point remains.

And I do know of cases where homeless fellas have been bought off to vote for a bottle of vodka.

Because it only matters if you pay tens of thousands of people $100, and none of those tens of thousands of people tell someone that you're doing it or even that you offered. You can get some anonymity with the internet and like bitcoin, but nothing like the anonymity of malware on people's machines. Especially public machines, like those at a public library, where probably lots of people are going to go to vote.

 

I mean, you can get other governments involved in the malware and then it's really trouble. Better hope Estonia doesn't piss another country off enough to pay for malware creation.

Serious question, but would you consider online/electronic voting at polling stations. I've been assuming that was what was meant but it seems like you are talking about just voting from any internet accessible computer and not a controlled machine at a polling station.

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Guy on friends list is creationist and constantly hates on Bernie. After a couple beers last night I finally challenged him. It's still going on, and I have to try SUPER hard to dodge all the petty religion crap he keeps tossing at me to derail me. Now he's going for the soldier sympathy card, but he's already used the classic "its laziness thats the problem" theory in like every post...


Quote

 

Quote

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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What better place to pick a drunk argument then facebook?


Quote

 

Quote

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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I'm in an ethics class atm and its always funny to see how many people react that way.

 

Where they feel strongly about something and haven't really thought about why yet and are giving their gut reactions to explain it. :lol:

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I'm in an ethics class atm and its always funny to see how many people react that way.

 

Where they feel strongly about something and haven't really thought about why yet and are giving their gut reactions to explain it. :lol:

Aka most people on all sides of the political spectrum

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polvCwJ.gif
"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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Even more generally than that, I think that questioning our basic assumptions about reality is what makes psychological horror is so terrifying. 

 

But yeah I do really appreciate Muggi's stance that you can choose your beliefs and apply the ones that are the most useful to your life rather than continuing to hold bad ones that you've suffered for.

 

Something I'm sure RPG's religious friend can relate to. 

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Guy on friends list is creationist and constantly hates on Bernie. After a couple beers last night I finally challenged him. It's still going on, and I have to try SUPER hard to dodge all the petty religion crap he keeps tossing at me to derail me. Now he's going for the soldier sympathy card, but he's already used the classic "its laziness thats the problem" theory in like every post...

 

Hey at least he argued with you :P Was this on a wall post or over PM? Before I discovered the magical "unfollow" button, I'd sometimes try and poke holes in my friends' arguments when they'd get on their soapbox and post dumb shit on their newsfeeds... but then their friends would be the ones to respond to me instead. And since those people weren't my friends, they'd just throw personal attacks out instead of discussing things like adults lol. I'd try and make my argument as delicate and understanding as possible and people would just respond with "Wow IDK who muggi is but he's an [wagon]!" :lol:

 

I've learned that most of them genuinely aren't interested in discussing things or having their views challenged. So I just "unfollow" those people now. But there are a few friends who actually are willing to talk on and on about their opposing beliefs. And those people are a lot of fun to talk to over PM since we'll both tend to gain a better understanding of each others' perspectives that way. I think being more than just "Facebook friends"/acquaintances with someone makes it easier to discuss shit too.


77yLQy8.png

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I'm in an ethics class atm and its always funny to see how many people react that way.

 

Where they feel strongly about something and haven't really thought about why yet and are giving their gut reactions to explain it. :lol:

 

I remember my freshman year, I was in Intro to Philosophy and the professor-- a young, hippie woman-- was stating as fact that racist jokes are never funny. The whole class was just kind of awkwardly silent and didn't really try to argue with her. In hindsight, it's kind of scary how some professors can try to use their class/profession as a soapbox for their [irrational] beliefs. I guess my professor never heard of Richard Pryor :lol:

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I've been pretty lucky to never have had a class where someone was trying to push their adgenda down my throat.

 

Like I remember taking a human sexuality class before where we discussed the topic like a biology class. It was really sad when I heard from my cousin that her university made them watch Lacy Green and discuss feminist theory instead of giving them raw facts and figures.

 

 

 

Gotta love sitting in my ivory tower in the Engineering department which has insulated me from the agendas you find floating around in the regular campus, even this ethics class is designed for CS majors with our dilemmas involving international copyright violations, big data collection/use, google car collision decisions. 

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Looking like a very boring weekend. I need to find a hobby for times like these.


TANSTAAFL

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