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Price manipulation: right or wrong?


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190 replies to this topic

#21
Makoto_the_Phoenix
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If someone has the money and the desire to do it, then they are fully within their rights to do it. There's no rule against it, and it's certainly an innovative technique for moneymaking.




"Rights"? What rights?



Oh, and about it not being against any rules, it's been said time and again that Jagex doesn't condone any sort of price manipulation. This being from the Grand Exchange entry on the KB:



We will only intervene as a last resort, and only if we think price manipulation is going on, although the system has lots of safeguards to prevent that.




One could infer that price manipulation is frowned upon very much so.



Keep in mind that not everyone really has the patience to wait for prices to fall back to a reasonable level. I don't play this game day-in and day-out, and if I want monkfish, I want to pay a reasonable price for 'em. That's all it is.

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#22
slash11223
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I think it is fine. I myself am in a merchanting clan. To anyone who says it's not fair, I had to work to get the money to merchant. Also, to the person who said guthans was too expensive....i bought my set at 10m. After the ge caused market crash, it is not even worth half of what i paid. Is it not fair that I make a tiny bit of money off of merchanting what lost me so much money? Finally, although we succeed about 3/4 of the time in merchanting, we do fail. We made the money to merch, we use it to merch. All's fair.

#23
redfishswim
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1st of all i would say there is a differnt between mercin and price manipualtion.i can respect that ppl have work hard for there cash and wish to make it work for them,investing in an item and picking a prime time to sell is a skill(as with the release of the prayer update d bones have skyrocked though a real demand for them).

price manipution on the other hand is a cynical attemp to maniupalte the ge in your favor,yes i could engage in this but choose on to because i feel while it not agaist the letter of the rules it is agaist the spirit.

I think that the spirit of the game is forgotten by alot of player.just go to any pvp world and watch player 'daggering'while this is not agaist the letter of the rule is does break the spirit of them.(as proven by jagex having to ban gaining potenial from 'flowering' and 'striking')i prefere to play with the spirit of the game because i like to think to a lot of people the RS is more the a collection of rule to find loophole in!

desides is it not more satisfing to earn and item (gs,dfs or phat) then ot affectivltly cheat by using a loophole in the system but meh myabe that me being a little old fashioned.
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#24
Porpington9
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I think that price manipulation is right. If people are saying "My morals are too high to make easy money," then that's their problem. It's human nature to take the easiest path, and in this case the easiest way to make money is by manipulating prices.

But those who say that manipulation of prices is easy have obviously never tried it. It may be easier than killing two thousand steel dragons for a visage, but it is an extremely risky business, where you must rely on the promises of other people not to sell early. Several times, I have lost money because the leaders of a merch clan have sold behind our backs. On the other hand, with higher risks comes higher reward.

In addition, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, Jagex can't do a whole lot about it without becoming a metaphorical dictator. As someone who posted before me said, "It's capitalism or communism." Jagex has already taken a step towards communism with the creation of the G.E. and semi-regulation of prices. The next step would be a set price for everything as they see fit, which i doubt will ever happen. So, if you don't like price manipulation, learn some patience and wait for the item you want to go down or join in on the profits.
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#25
eias
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Price manipulation can be good and profitable if YOU are doing it with your money,so raising an item's price up then selling it in huge amounts is very profitable,while if you are the buyer and the price is highly raised then that's considered a bad thing by you.
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#26
TheDayRsDied
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If Jagex does not want price manipulation, then they should not have introduced the Grand Exchange.
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#27
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I don't see how it can be right, but then again I don't see how it can be wrong.

If somebody has the ability & resources to do it, & nothing is stopping them, they can go full steam ahead. It will have a negative impact on some players, but can also be an advantage to others.

I wouldn't call it an 'honest' profit, but in reality, there is no cheating involved (in a sense).
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#28
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Price manipulation is only wrong because of the runescape trade limit which doesnt allow people to trade for the price they want, but the manipulated price.



Otherwise i really cannot understand why its wrong, if somebody can outsmart the rest then he should do it. If somebody is too stupid to check prices and graphs on grand exchange db then he deserves to be ripped off.

#29
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Morally wrong, perhaps. It's a bit like insider trading in real life - "our (shares/coal) is about to fall, SELL!" It's obviously not against the game rules yet.



Merchanting itself doesn't equal price manipulation - one can simply read the graphs, get a feel for supply/demand, and work from there, but when you've got hundreds of players screwing over the rest of us because they can afford to buy out all the (insert commodity here,) THEN we have a problem.



Price manipulation wouldn't be a problem if "fair trade" was removed, and we went back to "free trade," but then we'll have more problems with macro-ers. It's a double-edged sword, I guess (and I would much rather no macroers.)
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#30
txxxt5
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personally im all for it. im not rich but i dont really care how people make money.



For those that do it and figured it out congrats :D you found out how to merch on the g.e.



For those who are against it.. you either probably lost money cause of price manipulation or you just arent smart enough to join them youself. Although there might be a few of you like me that are too afraid to get banned for doing it lol.



For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)



The moral to all of this is if you have high value items like barrows, a gs, or something like that then watch the g.e prices. If you look at the graph you can usually see when a clan is merching it. When that happens wait about a day or 2 and then sell for profit. usually clans rise it for a week and then drop all of them into the g.e.
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#31
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I think it is fine. I myself am in a merchanting clan. To anyone who says it's not fair, I had to work to get the money to merchant. Also, to the person who said guthans was too expensive....i bought my set at 10m. After the ge caused market crash, it is not even worth half of what i paid. Is it not fair that I make a tiny bit of money off of merchanting what lost me so much money? Finally, although we succeed about 3/4 of the time in merchanting, we do fail. We made the money to merch, we use it to merch. All's fair.


If you're in a merchanting clan and you're price manipulating on the G.E. (in the process detailed below), you are not endorsing capitalism as you so imply in the post.

You are creating a monopoly by damming up the supply so that it's distributing amongst the clan and virtually no one else in the game. By making a hold off on the supply, there is no competition to bring the price down, essentially buying up the competition. That is in no way capitalism.



Of course, if you are NOT doing the above, then you're just economically savy, not price manipulating (as you defend) while also receiving my humble apologies. :<img src=:' />





For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)


That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

Or

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.
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#32
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There's nothing wrong with price manipulation. Its just people buying low and selling high. Look at the RL example of property, stock etc. Investors buy stuff at a low price and when the price skyrockets, they sell it off. So? If price manipulation is wrong, a few million people would be in jail now.



And for those jerks who say the people who manipulate the price are jerks who force them to be unable to afford a certain item... too bad then. Its your fault that you didn't buy it earlier. Or just wait until the price comes down again and buy it.

#33
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There's nothing wrong with price manipulation. Its just people buying low and selling high. Look at the RL example of property, stock etc. Investors buy stuff at a low price and when the price skyrockets, they sell it off. So? If price manipulation is wrong, a few million people would be in jail now.



And for those jerks who say the people who manipulate the price are jerks who force them to be unable to afford a certain item... too bad then. Its your fault that you didn't buy it earlier. Or just wait until the price comes down again and buy it.


Merchant and Manipulators are DIFFERENT. Not even CLOSE with your analogy. Oh, there are a lot of people jailed for insider trading. :roll:
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#34
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For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)


That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

Or

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.




no im talking about when that merching clan made the dark bow go up to 1.1m. I was smart enough to buy a couple myself so i could ride the train till it was enough profit for me and sold a day before they dumped the dbows back into the ge.
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#35
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For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)


That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

Or

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.




no im talking about when that merching clan made the dark bow go up to 1.1m. I was smart enough to buy a couple myself so i could ride the train till it was enough profit for me and sold a day before they dumped the dbows back into the ge.


Well, you didn't manipulate the prices, but they did.
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#36
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I personally think its right...up to a point. For example, someone manipulated balls of wool, whos really going to suffer?



But, it (bleeps) me off when someone (this happend recently) buys out something ive been saving for. I woerked my (donkey) in f2p so i could afford a bandos GS. But no, someone HAD to manipulate it.




So, if it doesn't affect you, then you're Okay with it?



Sadly, the precedent doesn't work like that. The law deals in absolutes and precedents. Otherwise, discrimination is present.



Is there anything ethically right about it? Well, it doesn't help anybody except themselves. People will always defend something which is to their advantage. However Unethical it may be. I mean, why do you think it took us so long to abolish slavery?
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#37
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Wrong. Abusing the game's mechanics in a way that give you an advantage, and bring the other players to a disadvantage is wrong, and everyone who does it should be banned.

Like the antifire potion manipulation that is going on right now.
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#38
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Wrong. Purposely buying products at such a ridiculously high price is crazy, and there is no point to doing so anyway.

Take Fire Tiaras for an example. I saw a GE graph one day and realized the price is rising pretty fast. There is no use to them, other than entering the Fire Altar (which you can just buy the talisman and craft a tiara anyway).

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#39
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Lessee ... I bought a Regeneration Bracelet a few weeks ago for under 300k. I went into the GE last week and someone's saying "Buying Regen Bracelet at top price". I check and top price is 347k. I think to myself "Cool. I can sell now, making 47k, and buy again when it's around 300k again".



So, what happened? I sold, and got my 347k, and made 47k. I thought this buyer was just someone who desperately wanted a Regen Bracelet right that minute, so was willing to offer top price. Imagine my surprise when I see this same player continuing to offer top price after I'd sold my RB. And each time I went into the GE that night there they were, offering top price.



Natch, the price shot through the roof. Have a look at the Jagex chart. Within a couple of days it was up around 450k, and my guess is that the player who bought mine had bought a lot of others in that time. And of course I couldn't buy back at a cheaper price because they simply weren't available at a cheaper price. I'd made 47k but lost my RB.



And then ... the sell off. Anyone who had been eager to buy one had been competing with a bidder saying 'top price' for a week, so if they didn't match that price they'd been missing out. Eventually, the person/people who has been hoarding decides to start selling and they'll be able to sell a few at the highest price to the most desperate. For slightly less they'll sell to the slightly less desperate and so on, so they have to drop the price from that peak point in little steps. They'll still be making a packet as they go, but they'll need to sell quickly and the price will drop like a stone. Again, have a look at the chart if you want to see the effect of price manipulation. Up fast; down fast.



Do I care? Well, I kept an eye on the graphs, so I've bought myself a new RB for 255k. I'm not unhappy about that. Actually I bought a spare at that price because I'm pretty sure there'll be a bounce (have a look at the 20 day average before the [bleep]e). I'll just keep it until the price goes over 300k again, I reckon.



If this was price manipulation, did it hurt anyone? I guess it would have been financially (in Runescape gold) painful for someone who thought they just couldn't live without a Regen Bracelet, or just didn't check the GE graphs, and paid up to 450k for something which they could have got for 255k a week earlier or later. It was a little frustrating for me to see them going for 450k when 'all I got was 347k' (even though that was almost 50k profit anyway).



But it's a game. They aren't dollars, they're Runescape gold coins. We aren't trading commodities, we're trading magical fish and bracelets which accelerate your hitpoint regain. Huh? This is not reality. However annoying any of the trading practices might be, they're in a game. And we all have the option, as most of us have in real life too, of taking it slow, checking the graphs, 'caveat emptor', don't buy on impulse, don't sell in haste.



Instead of the time I spent watching the graphs and playing the market on Regen bracelets, all to make 47k and buy a cheapie, I could have killed dragons and made probably 300k, or chopped yews, or fished or whatever. The person doing the manipulation could have done the same. They must have risked many millions, and if they'd seriously misjudged they could have lost half of that. It isn't as if there's no risk for the serious price manipulator - they can end up stuck with loads of an item and no buyers.

#40
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Gah, trying to think about it is hard.... I will have to edit this post soon. I say it's wrong, but there needs to be a solution to it, not just everyone agreeing 'oh it's wrong, it's soooo wrong'




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