Price manipulation: right or wrong?

[quelmotz]

Just because there's no rule against something, doesn't mean it's right. I never said I would not take advantage of changing prices, but DID I MANIPULATE THE PRICE IN THE FIRST PLACE? No. So cut the crap about this.

 

 

 

Price Manipulation will soon be made illegal by Jagex. They've already stated it, so stop your pointless arguments about this.

 

 

 

Merchants might affect the price, but they don't do it in large scale, and the change in price they cause is so minuscule it's negligible (until they add up, that is).

[Cpchris]

Ok, I'm sick of seeing "Price manipulators are smart"

 

 

 

THEY ARE NOT SMART. They aren't "outsmarting" us, they are forcing it on us. I'm not unaware of it happening and suddenly surprised that it happened.

 

 

 

If you can't tell by what I just said, I think price manipulation is wrong. It wastes the innocent player's time when they can't buy what they need to or have to wait a long time to be able to buy it at its regular price or pay a very high price for it. All because some lazy players wanna rip off from the rest of the rs community and their hard work.

 

 

 

How are Price Manipulators different from macroers? Bots allow a player to do nothing while their character/avatar trains a skill and makes them money.

 

 

 

Price manipulators are no better. They take 10 seconds to put in an offer to buy an item, take 30 seconds a day to watch the price go down, then take another 10 seconds to sell their items. That's basically a process that, aside from the waiting, takes under 2 minutes. They basically do nothing and then make money. Why ban one group [bots/macroers] of people that do nothing to make money but not ban another group [price manipulators] of people who do nothing to make money?

 

 

 

 

 

Second, how are Price Manipulators different from scammers? If anything, I'd rather have scammers over price manipulators.

 

 

 

Scammers: Trick people into paying a much higher price for a desired item.

 

Price Manipulators: FORCE people into paying a much higher price for a desired item.

 

 

 

At least with scammers I get a choice...

 

----------

 

Basically, I personally don't approve of price manipulation, but also don't understand, based on what I said above, why JAGEX allows it?

 

 

 

Price Manipulators get in the way of people who just wanna play the game and buy items they need. If Price Manipulators are too lazy to work to get money, then RS obviously isn't the right game for them.

[Guest]

Lmao. Youve both been sat there very piously stating how price manipulation clans are very bad and lecturing me on the fine arts of things. Youve both now admitted to profiting from it.

 

Both of these quotes say it all:

 

 

 

 

To answer your question, yes, I have sold my whip when they rose. I sold at 2.3 or something, and it rose all the way to 3m. But your saying by selling my whip, I manipulated the market? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Just because there's no rule against something, doesn't mean it's right. I never said I would not take advantage of changing prices, but DID I MANIPULATE THE PRICE IN THE FIRST PLACE? No. So cut the crap about this.

 

 

 

Something new things for you to learn about things here, gentlemen. If price manipulation is a crime, then taking advantage of it is also a crime. Just because you didnt start the price manipulation, you contributed to it by feeding the false demand. You sold things that you knew/know are being manipulated so you are contributing to it. Quelmotz is particularly funny as he would take advantage of the crime in question, but as he didnt start it so thats ok -.- .

 

 

 

You both admit to making some sort of profit from it. While claiming manipulating prices is bad, you both wanted to profit. You see nothing wrong with this? Its not ok to start it but its ok to profit from it? You cannot claim to be against something which you gleefully profit from when it suits you.

 

 

 

Quelmotz, you say that Jagex are soon going to ban price manipulation. If they are then thats fine as it doesnt affect me but Id like to see some sort of evidence of this. Can you place a link in this post so I can see it.

 

 

 

Now this being the case, if Jagex were to ban it and apply things fairly, then those knowingly taking advantage of price manipulation could also be implicated. A little food for thought for you both. :ohnoes:

[All_Is_Great]

Lmao. Youve both been sat there very piously stating how price manipulation clans are very bad and lecturing me on the fine arts of things. Youve both now admitted to profiting from it.

 

Both of these quotes say it all:

 

 

 

 

To answer your question, yes, I have sold my whip when they rose. I sold at 2.3 or something, and it rose all the way to 3m. But your saying by selling my whip, I manipulated the market? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Just because there's no rule against something, doesn't mean it's right. I never said I would not take advantage of changing prices, but DID I MANIPULATE THE PRICE IN THE FIRST PLACE? No. So cut the crap about this.

 

 

 

Something new things for you to learn about things here, gentlemen. If price manipulation is a crime, then taking advantage of it is also a crime. Just because you didnt start the price manipulation, you contributed to it by feeding the false demand. You sold things that you knew/know are being manipulated so you are contributing to it. Quelmotz is particularly funny as he would take advantage of the crime in question, but as he didnt start it so thats ok -.- .

 

 

 

You both admit to making some sort of profit from it. While claiming manipulating prices is bad, you both wanted to profit. You see nothing wrong with this? Its not ok to start it but its ok to profit from it? You cannot claim to be against something which you gleefully profit from when it suits you.

 

 

 

Quelmotz, you say that Jagex are soon going to ban price manipulation. If they are then thats fine as it doesnt affect me but Id like to see some sort of evidence of this. Can you place a link in this post so I can see it.

 

 

 

Now this being the case, if Jagex were to ban it and apply things fairly, then those knowingly taking advantage of price manipulation could also be implicated. A little food for thought for you both. :ohnoes:

 

 

 

Your logic definately isn't the same as mine, so I'm going to stop telling you why I think price manipulation is wrong and why I don't think selling an item on the rise is price manipulation.

 

 

 

But just throwing this out there, a lot of these so-called "merch clans" aren't even real, the leader will usually dump before the set price, so if you sell your items after it starts crashing, you might be losing money instead of gaining. Also, some are scams. :|

[Guest]

Your logic definately isn't the same as mine, so I'm going to stop telling you why I think price manipulation is wrong and why I don't think selling an item on the rise is price manipulation.

 

 

 

No my logic is definately not like yours at all. I think you've been found out here. You have no real argument because you know you're feeding the false demand started by clans and making money from it. Is this really so hard to admit? Does your logic state 'I didnt commit the crime in the first place so dont blame me for making money from it'. If this is the case, I'm happy to be illogical. The next time you see a mugging victim, join in mugging him. When the cops get you just tell them 'hey it was the other guy started it. I just joined in'. At best they will charge you with accessory. Precisely what you are doing when you sell your goods when you know there are manipulated price rises.

 

 

 

 

But just throwing this out there, a lot of these so-called "merch clans" aren't even real, the leader will usually dump before the set price, so if you sell your items after it starts crashing, you might be losing money instead of gaining. Also, some are scams. :|

 

 

 

 

This is the risk that those clans take. Its their money so they can do what they want with it as far as I'm concerned. Why don't you take the profit that you made form your whip and give it to low lvl F2P players who may benefit from it. Should make you feel better about it, dont you think?

[All_Is_Great]

Your logic definately isn't the same as mine, so I'm going to stop telling you why I think price manipulation is wrong and why I don't think selling an item on the rise is price manipulation.

 

 

 

No my logic is definately not like yours at all. I think you've been found out here. You have no real argument because you know you're feeding the false demand started by clans and making money from it. Is this really so hard to admit? Does your logic state 'I didnt commit the crime in the first place so dont blame me for making money from it'. If this is the case, I'm happy to be illogical. The next time you see a mugging victim, join in mugging him. When the cops get you just tell them 'hey it was the other guy started it. I just joined in'. At best they will charge you with accessory. Precisely what you are doing when you sell your goods when you know there are manipulated price rises.

 

 

 

 

But just throwing this out there, a lot of these so-called "merch clans" aren't even real, the leader will usually dump before the set price, so if you sell your items after it starts crashing, you might be losing money instead of gaining. Also, some are scams. :|

 

 

 

 

This is the risk that those clans take. Its their money so they can do what they want with it as far as I'm concerned. Why don't you take the profit that you made form your whip and give it to low lvl F2P players who may benefit from it. Should make you feel better about it, dont you think?

 

 

 

Umm, I got found out? for what? for selling my whip? How am I feeding false demand by selling a SINGLE whip? Also, even if I didn't sell it, the price would STILL GO UP, because that's how the ge works. And I'm not going to join in mugging someone, and say "they started it, i just joined in". And by the way, people who sell a couple items did not "JOIN IN" (as you put it) on the price manipulation. They didn't manipulate anything.

 

to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner

That is a quote from dictionary.com. It clearly says "manage and influence", but by selling a item or two, you aren't managing or influencing the price. However, it was the people who created the false demand who were influencing the GE price. Also note the "esp. in an unfair manner". Saying it's the people selling the items is at fault is false.

 

 

 

I do actually hand out free stuff to the occasional f2p/ low level p2p player. Over the years, I've given out some helpful items such as cash (usually 5k - 10k), str ammys that I made, also power ammys too. And pure sets (green dhide chap + vamb) to those pures who just got 40 range. Hell, I even gave out my 2 rune scims and r2hs for free days before the trade limits. So don't accuse me of not helping others.

[Guest]

You're still stimulating demand. Doesn't matter whether you sell 1, 100 or 1000 whips. You're making profit on the back of others doing an act that you say should be banned. That makes you a hypocrite.

[quelmotz]

Lmao. Youve both been sat there very piously stating how price manipulation clans are very bad and lecturing me on the fine arts of things. Youve both now admitted to profiting from it.

 

Both of these quotes say it all:

 

 

 

 

To answer your question, yes, I have sold my whip when they rose. I sold at 2.3 or something, and it rose all the way to 3m. But your saying by selling my whip, I manipulated the market? I don't think so.

 

 

 

Just because there's no rule against something, doesn't mean it's right. I never said I would not take advantage of changing prices, but DID I MANIPULATE THE PRICE IN THE FIRST PLACE? No. So cut the crap about this.

 

 

 

Something new things for you to learn about things here, gentlemen. If price manipulation is a crime, then taking advantage of it is also a crime. Just because you didnt start the price manipulation, you contributed to it by feeding the false demand. You sold things that you knew/know are being manipulated so you are contributing to it. Quelmotz is particularly funny as he would take advantage of the crime in question, but as he didnt start it so thats ok -.- .

 

 

 

You both admit to making some sort of profit from it. While claiming manipulating prices is bad, you both wanted to profit. You see nothing wrong with this? Its not ok to start it but its ok to profit from it? You cannot claim to be against something which you gleefully profit from when it suits you.

 

 

 

Quelmotz, you say that Jagex are soon going to ban price manipulation. If they are then thats fine as it doesnt affect me but Id like to see some sort of evidence of this. Can you place a link in this post so I can see it.

 

 

 

Now this being the case, if Jagex were to ban it and apply things fairly, then those knowingly taking advantage of price manipulation could also be implicated. A little food for thought for you both. :ohnoes:

 

 

 

Oh, amazing!! Apparently I can't take advantage of prices falling/rising. I don't even know WHO CAUSED the freaking prices to rise/fall. It could just be supply and demand, a new item that needs the item, etc etc.

 

 

 

=D> Whose logic is absurd now?

 

 

 

I don't have the link, but it was in one of the tip.it times about price manipulation.

[All_Is_Great]

You're still stimulating demand. Doesn't matter whether you sell 1, 100 or 1000 whips. You're making profit on the back of others doing an act that you say should be banned. That makes you a hypocrite.

 

 

 

WTF? :?

 

Whatever I say, you don't understand. I already gave you the definition of "manipulate" go read it :roll:

[Guest]

I've edited this post after going round in circles with you both so I thought it might be a good idea to challenge your points at this time:

 

 

 

Price manipulation....Its not my fault honest!

 

You claim that its the fault of the price manipulators for starting the snowball of price rising due to false demand. Therefore you claim you're not at fault if you stick the same items in to sell because 'you didnt start it'. Your argument is a schoolboy argument saying 'they started it not me'. If you decide that you want to profit from something which you know the price is rising because of clans doing their manipulation on an item, you are just as guilty. In fact its worse because on the one hand you're complaining of manipulated prices but claim its not your fault if you want to profit from it. If Jagex applied a rule on this fairly then you would also be banned as even though a clan starts it, you decide to jump on-board. You're part of a system you claim you hate and you're as guilty as those who you point the finger at. Here's the scenario:

 

 

 

allisgreat see's whips are going up in price. He knows a clan might be behind this.

 

 

 

allisgreat decides to sell his whip because he wants to make a profit.

 

 

 

After a while the price of whips crash.

 

 

 

allisgreat decides to whinge about price manipulators even though he made a profit out of it and contributed to the rise by selling his item and stimulating the demand. allisgreat says he is not responsible as the clans started it.

 

 

 

Allisgreat says its ok to profit from the crime as he didnt start it in the first place. :shame:

 

 

 

 

 

RS is a real economy....?

 

Very incorrect. Real economies are massively dependent on one another and on trade. Jagex could take away the G.E. and stop all player trades. The result apart from many unhappy people? Very little. If they played long enough anyone could start a level 3 account and get all skills to 99, get most items through drops (armour, weps, treasure trails etc.), make the things they need and still play the game. In short, its not like a real economy as we don't have to depend on it if we dont want to. We could get everything ourselves. We dont because we're lazy, our stats might not be high enough to get to or make certain things, and we don't have much patience waiting for those elusive drops. Rares and some things for F2P such as treasure trail items are the exception. If the RS economy ground to a halt, life could continue in RS. No-one dies, no wars, job losses etc. If you're unhappy about paying for certain things, go out and get them yourself. If you don't have the skills, train them. Apart from rares you don't have to rely on the RS ecomony at all. It's painful if you don't but it can be done. Alcing often solves the cash problem.

 

 

 

Merches are people shaped like the letter 's'....................

 

You ever play RS before the G.E.? Good. Now who did people moan about most for price manipulation? The merch's. You say price manipulation should be banned but where do you draw the line? Merch's are still there buying low and selling high and yes they still affect prices. If Jagex bans price manipulation, you'll then be moaning about merch's manipulating prices. Then you'll want them banned...and on and on and on.

 

 

 

Price Maniplation should be banned!!! But junk trades are ok.................................................

 

In junk trading you state that players are unhappy with the market price so they make players pay a higher, more artificial price. You were moaning that price manipulators unfairly alter a price so there is very little difference. Granted, it does not alter the market price but they make people pay more by having to buy crap. As I cannot go anywhere else for, lets say a phat, its a form of price fixing and in RL thats illegal, just as price manipulation is, as that is not its true market value. If I could go somewhere else I would say fine, but I can't as they ALL do it.

 

 

 

Its Going to be Banned as Jagex Said!!

 

Fine...but what evidence do you have? Some public statement on the issue would be useful by Jagex themselves, not some rumor.

 

 

 

Jrhairychest, your logic sucks!

 

So, professors of logic, I must be doing pretty bad in game if your theories are correct. Wrong :D

 

 

 

First of all you'll notice that I'm not against price manipulation unless Jagex specifically ban it. This is because I've used my brain and made sure I can profit from various markets, keeping away from anything that's being manipulated by the clans. If one area collapses I can move on to the next. I adapt what I do to suit my needs and I'll use a bit of patience and wait things out if I have to.

 

 

 

Secondly, because of the way I do things, I have 80m in cash alone in the bank. While this may not seem a lot these days, it puts me in good stead. This cash does not include the cash I have been investing into smithing or the cash I invested into the latter stages of crafting. This being the case it would be more near 130m. I make 1.5m to 2m per day. Its not the fastest, nor is it as boneshaking as getting a drop in Godwars but it is consistent. I rely on skills, not forum whinging.

 

 

 

edit - per day I mean about 3 hours, not a full day.

 

 

 

Thirdly I'm not the one whinging about manipulation clans, you are. I often find that when people whinge about these things its because they are the 'have nots'. If you're so logical and intelligent then why do you whinge about it instead of outfoxing the clans and changing your direction in how you make money? quelmotz in particular has no viable skills (I'm assuming its the same person as is on the high scores) yet claims he is 'semi-retired'. Semi-retired with 6 ranked skills, and not one of those over 65? No wonder you moan about cash. So if my logic is so bad, then your superior logic should mean you're doing much better than I am.

 

 

 

Yes...Im very illogical :roll:

[Atom Smash40]

wrong. it just slows the game down and creates headaches for people who want to play.

[All_Is_Great]

OK jr, whatever you say. Yes you are doing VERY well in game, but what does that have to do with anything :lol:

 

 

 

I have 15m in cash and less than 25m together, but I don't care, I've been playing 5 yrs +, and I still don't care about how much my bank is worth.

 

 

 

So, it's not ok to sell my whip because I see it going up in price? Maybe I need the cash for some other stuff, like construction :idea: Why not sell it when it's going up? Why wait extra weeks and sell it while it crashes? I had a month of membership this summer, I don't have extra weeks to wait.

 

 

 

You still don't know what "manipulation" means, or what junk trading is :roll:

 

 

 

This thread is about whether price manipulation is right or wrong, yet I don't see anywhere in your post that you answer this question and back it up, instead, you just question me. I think we're going way off topic.

 

 

 

Here's your logic: i'm profitting off price manipulation by selling a single item, and that means I manipulated the market. :wall:

 

 

 

I don't see us argueing about the same point, I'm saying price manipulation is wrong, and giving reasons why, but your just saying I'm a criminal :lol:

[Guest]

Well you and quelmotz decided to question my logic and pretty much told me I didn't know what this stuff was all about. Obviously comparing the way the game is going for me compared to you and quelmotz shows I think I know what I'm doing and what I'm talking about. Contrary to your belief that I don't know what manipulation or junk trading is, I have a pretty clear idea of both, as explained above.

 

 

 

I just find it amusing that a guy like yourself who prides himself so much on his logic cannot see when he is an accessory to something. Just don't act all suprised if Jagex implicate those who join in the manipulation whether you started it or not. Obviously your morals disappear when you need a quick buck.

 

 

 

Heres the line you wrote "i'm profitting off price manipulation by selling a single item, and that means I manipulated the market". You still don't get it do you? Doesn't matter how many items you sold (1,5,10,20+), you knowingly joined in, just as other players would have done, then complained on here that price manipulation is wrong. I didn't see you complain that you made money. You looked up what the term 'hypocritical' means yet? You still can't see that you're profiting from an act you see as criminal? How much profit did you make from that whip?

 

 

 

I believe that I posted a number of times that price manipulation is right because as of yet, it is not against the rules. Did you not bother to read them? That opinion won't change unless Jagex do something about it. Oh, where is Quelmotz evidence of Jagex stating they are going to ban this. Conveniently he has disappeared.

[quelmotz]

http://www.tip.it/runescape/index.php?times=300

[Guest]

Quelmotz, this is an opinion in a post on tipit, not an official Jagex statement. You claimed Jagex are going to ban this but you've provided no evidence from Jagex themselves. #-o

[Woozie]

Just because they manipulate guam seeds and ball of wool doesn't mean it should be legal. Just because prayer potions is in high demand doesn't make the action less "ok". And your example sucked.

[EpicWin]

Wrong.

 

 

 

Why should a clan or clans have the rights to have power over the market? It's just ridiculous and ruining the game for people who want to buy essential items from GE ( Potions, raw material etc ). For example it's impossible to buy prayer potions due to price manipulations and prayer potions are one of the most tradable potions in the game. Yes, it does make skills harder, but Jagex should decide whether to make skills easier or harder. I think it's wrong that players gain power over the market and <1% of RS players can ruin it for the other 99%.

[quelmotz]

Quelmotz, this is an opinion in a post on tipit, not an official Jagex statement. You claimed Jagex are going to ban this but you've provided no evidence from Jagex themselves. #-o

 

 

 

Go and ask the writers of the article then. They wouldn't write something without proof, especially something as controversial as this.

[Fairness]

Of course it's wrong. That doesn't mean I don't do it, but I'd be glad if it would be removed. Only after I quadrupled my money, of course.

[Guest]

Quelmotz, this is an opinion in a post on tipit, not an official Jagex statement. You claimed Jagex are going to ban this but you've provided no evidence from Jagex themselves. #-o

 

 

 

Go and ask the writers of the article then. They wouldn't write something without proof, especially something as controversial as this.

 

 

 

The burden of proof is on you. You claimed Jagex was going to ban it in an earlier post. I'd like to see the evidence please from Jagex themselves.

[Zierro]

You're still stimulating demand. Doesn't matter whether you sell 1, 100 or 1000 whips. You're making profit on the back of others doing an act that you say should be banned. That makes you a hypocrite.

 

 

 

Casual trading is different than trading with the sole intention of manipulating the prices. I would argue that it's only "manipulation" if you intended for it to be.

 

 

 

to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

 

 

 

No such thing as accidentally manipulating.

 

 

 

As for my thoughts on the thread topic, I don't really like capitalism because it allows things such as taking food out of a hungry person's mouth so you can get a golden unicorn statue for your fountain. However, we're talking about Runescape here, not a situation of life and death. One could argue that it is their money and they should be able to do what they want with it. That's true. But then again, if it is ruining the game can they really be given that sort of freedom?

[Erewhon2]

I will say that while I generally am uncomfortable with real price manipulation on rs by clans, I will and do take advantage of raised prices. Jagex have not made it against the rules but do frown on it......

 

 

 

"I see merchanting clans as pyramid selling schemes, where, typically, only a handful of players actually make any money and everyone else loses money - just like real-life pyramid schemes. Because of this, we are not in favour of them in RuneScape, and try to warn players not to participate in them." Quote from Mark Gerhad CEO of Jagex.

 

 

 

I think the above point clarifies the Jagex standpoint. I would not object to the cessation of this kind of game play, but will probably continue to take advantage of it while it is there as I am sure most people do. ;)

[quelmotz]

You're still stimulating demand. Doesn't matter whether you sell 1, 100 or 1000 whips. You're making profit on the back of others doing an act that you say should be banned. That makes you a hypocrite.

 

 

 

Casual trading is different than trading with the sole intention of manipulating the prices. I would argue that it's only "manipulation" if you intended for it to be.

 

 

 

to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

 

 

 

No such thing as accidentally manipulating.

 

 

 

As for my thoughts on the thread topic, I don't really like capitalism because it allows things such as taking food out of a hungry person's mouth so you can get a golden unicorn statue for your fountain. However, we're talking about Runescape here, not a situation of life and death. One could argue that it is their money and they should be able to do what they want with it. That's true. But then again, if it is ruining the game can they really be given that sort of freedom?

 

 

 

:thumbup: +1, especially on the definition part.

 

 

 

What I've been trying to say was that I WAS NOT "manipulating" the prices when I bought/sold X of Y item, because my intention was NOT to manipulate prices, it was to earn money or get some item to train some skill or something.

[Guest]

 

:thumbup: +1, especially on the definition part.

 

 

 

What I've been trying to say was that I WAS NOT "manipulating" the prices when I bought/sold X of Y item, because my intention was NOT to manipulate prices, it was to earn money or get some item to train some skill or something.

 

 

 

If clan X decides to manipulate a price, making it go up and you decide to sell the item in question because you can make a profit, what does that tell you?

[Guest]

I will say that while I generally am uncomfortable with real price manipulation on rs by clans, I will and do take advantage of raised prices. Jagex have not made it against the rules but do frown on it......

 

 

 

At last, someone with the balls (debatable by the avatar) to admit it.