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Should the US government bail out the Big 3?


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I guess when you fix all your vehicles yourself, it's a little different.

 

 

 

Plus, I find statistics like manuals (well, for something as important to me as a vehicle). The people who put 'em together probably never assembled a carburetor in their life.

 

 

 

Huh, have I? I dunno... Wait. Yeah, yeah.

 

 

 

Yes, people do need them. Most, do not. You'll see 75-80% of our population driving these tanking things down the road, just count them (this is my anecdote). It's always 1 person driving them, too (more often it's a woman than a man, probably stay at home).

 

 

 

Well, I'm not interested in your cool anecdote, because I trust statistics.

 

In cities like Dallas, I really don't see trucks altogether that often. While I do give you that a lot of SUVs are driven.

 

 

 

They're cool, though.

 

 

 

Hell, I just like a nice big truck. I have a supply of biodiesel too, so it all works out quite nicely for me.

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I'm not good with economics, although I definitely believe we should do all we can to keep the companies from going under. All 3 companies own more than just one brand of car. If they crash, the entire western motor industry goes to the dogs, not to mention hundreds of thousands of jobs probably lost.

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I'm not good with economics, although I definitely believe we should do all we can to keep the companies from going under. All 3 companies own more than just one brand of car. If they crash, the entire western motor industry goes to the dogs, not to mention hundreds of thousands of jobs probably lost.

 

 

 

 

 

Their subsidiaries will be sold off / just closed off. There's more to the western motor industry. BMW, Porsche, Volkswagen, M-Benz, etc.

 

 

 

US motor industry will go to the dogs, not the whole West.

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Foreign import cars get up to 300,000-500k kilometers (way past 200k miles), while american made cars are usually dumped and not even considered for resale after a measly 100k kilometers.

 

 

 

If you at first browsed European car classifieds, you'd probably first think the buyers must be idiots for buying cars with so much mileage. That's not the case at all; The motors are much more endurable especially when it comes to a german BMW/Mercedes and many other EU-manufactured and Japanese cars.

 

 

 

Not to mention, nearly all foreign cars, even the upscale ones, are manual. New american cars are almost without exception automatic. Automatic gears have multiple issues when it comes to car longevity:

 

 

 


  •  
    [*:19gtcbsp]Automatic gearing creates extreme heat which must be dispersed
     
    [*:19gtcbsp]The cooling system works overtime, the engine will run hotter, the cooling fans work harder, which is horrible if you want a car that will last long
     
    [*:19gtcbsp]If/When an automatic gear box breaks, you don't just replace it like a manual, you have to rebuild the entire clutch

 

 

 

Then again, I don't expect americans to suddenly just stop using dumb, gas-monster SUV's for minor shopping trips, just saying why Europeans have more sense in general when it comes to driving and cars.

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Yes they should if they plan on saving the entire economy.

 

 

 

It wouldn't really have an effect on me as I prefer a nice German engineered car.

 

 

 

Which is why I have an M5, which gets terrible gas mileage.

 

 

 

But to just get around I drive a 528i

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Foreign import cars get up to 300,000-500k kilometers (way past 200k miles), while american made cars are usually dumped and not even considered for resale after a measly 100k kilometers.

 

 

 

If you at first browsed European car classifieds, you'd probably first think the buyers must be idiots for buying cars with so much mileage. That's not the case at all; The motors are much more endurable especially when it comes to a german BMW/Mercedes and many other EU-manufactured and Japanese cars.

 

 

 

Not to mention, nearly all foreign cars, even the upscale ones, are manual. New american cars are almost without exception automatic. Automatic gears have multiple issues when it comes to car longevity:

 

 

 


  •  
    [*:57zs2nnu]Automatic gearing creates extreme heat which must be dispersed
     
    [*:57zs2nnu]The cooling system works overtime, the engine will run hotter, the cooling fans work harder, which is horrible if you want a car that will last long
     
    [*:57zs2nnu]If/When an automatic gear box breaks, you don't just replace it like a manual, you have to rebuild the entire clutch

 

 

 

Then again, I don't expect americans to suddenly just stop using dumb, gas-monster SUV's for minor shopping trips, just saying why Europeans have more sense in general when it comes to driving and cars.

 

 

 

At least in the US, European cars are expensive to buy and maintain. Japanese cars are cheaper to buy and maintain, but American cars are the cheapest overall. Automatic transmissions these days are very efficient and in many cars (in the US) are rated at having the same if not more mileage than a manual. Also, most cars you see on the road in the US are sedans. Still too many SUVs for my liking, but with gas prices as they are (were) the number is steadily dropping.

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What are you talking about? GM has a huge lineup of hybrids/electric cars coming up within the next year or so. Even the Sierra gets 20mpg.

 

 

 

Well let's see: the cars are pieces of [cabbage] compared to foreign cars, in that they die in half of the time; they get crap mileage; they're huge [wagon] cars that people don't need.

 

 

 

I like how you perceive "20 mpg" as good mileage.

 

 

 

Although, in their defense, they're just feeding the demand of the public with their huge over sized, over polluting, crap mileage cars.

 

 

 

 

 

Well compared to the tundra which gets like 18 or 19 that's pretty good. And Toyota makes just as big cars as any American company. Sequoias, 4runners, FJ Cruisers and Sienna's are pretty big. But, Tacoma's are pretty sick though. GM, Ford and Chrysler are coming out with a whole lineup of fuel efficient cars like the Chevy Volt or the GMC Sierra Hybrid. Even cars that aren't hybrid have gone up in gas mileage. The new Malibu, Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura all have better gas mileage than the Camry or Accord.

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Isn't the problem not just not being able to make cars, but the current car owners to be supportless and basically 'lose' their car in a sense? Without parts, cars can't get repaired and the parts come from the car factory right? I'm not sure if insurance may have something to do with it but I think it does.

 

 

 

This doesn't seem just the "sales" of the cars, but the backbone of maintaing these vehicles. Police cars, ambulances, fire trucks, etc are made from Ford or Chevvy or some type of the Big Three...

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Let's just get rid of the monetary system!

 

 

 

A better idea than that doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever going to be able to get rid of it :wall: .

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Isn't the problem not just not being able to make cars, but the current car owners to be supportless and basically 'lose' their car in a sense? Without parts, cars can't get repaired and the parts come from the car factory right? I'm not sure if insurance may have something to do with it but I think it does.

 

 

 

This doesn't seem just the "sales" of the cars, but the backbone of maintaing these vehicles. Police cars, ambulances, fire trucks, etc are made from Ford or Chevvy or some type of the Big Three...

 

 

 

There's always the aftermarket parts. If there's a demand, someone will supply. Beauty of the free market. Esp. for those government vehicles. Maybe some of the big 3 will be bought out by a company capable of turning things around for them.

 

 

 

Someone said that this is a "loan" and not a bail out. THese companies are already buried in debt. They already admitted they can't get a loan from anywhere else. Do you know why? Because it's highly improbable that they can pay back that money anytime soon.

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Let's just get rid of the monetary system!

 

 

 

A better idea than that doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever going to be able to get rid of it :wall: .

 

 

 

What's wrong with money?

 

 

 

There's always the aftermarket parts. If there's a demand, someone will supply. Beauty of the free market. Esp. for those government vehicles. Maybe some of the big 3 will be bought out by a company capable of turning things around for them.

 

 

 

Someone said that this is a "loan" and not a bail out. THese companies are already buried in debt. They already admitted they can't get a loan from anywhere else. Do you know why? Because it's highly improbable that they can pay back that money anytime soon.

 

 

 

Just because they won't pay it back "soon" doesn't mean they won't pay it back. When I buy a house, I don't pay back the mortgage soon after, I pay it back over the course of 30 years or 15 years at a fixed rate if I'm smart ;) . And banks are finding it hard to loan to people with good credit anyway.

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Let's just get rid of the monetary system!

 

 

 

A better idea than that doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever going to be able to get rid of it :wall: .

 

 

 

What's wrong with money?

 

It causes individual greed, but there's no equivalent system out there that doesn't.

~ W ~

 

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Let's just get rid of the monetary system!

 

 

 

A better idea than that doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever going to be able to get rid of it :wall: .

 

 

 

What's wrong with money?

 

It causes individual greed, but there's no equivalent system out there that doesn't.

 

 

 

So given that, the monetary system is the best we've got short of denouncing all material things. Also, people are greedy for attention and things of nonmaterial worth, such as knowledge. So really, we should just get rid of people.

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If they bail them out, think of all the jobs saved.

 

If they don't think of all the jobs lost.

 

I'm thinking over 40k?

 

Not really smooth.... :roll:

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They better bail them out.

 

 

 

Seriously, if they don't my HOMESTATE (Michigan) will basically not have a strong workforce!!! Sure Detroit has 3 Casinos. But who the hell is going to go bet money when they are going to be jobless?

 

 

 

The United States needs to make sure Americans buy American cars! Add a bigger tax on import cars or something.

 

 

 

Edit: BTW, if you want to know it's serious or not. People (about 8-10) in car plants are getting laid off every day.

 

 

 

Some won't even have work next week w/o pay.

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Well, I do have to say - son of a [bleep]. Hopefully GM and Ford can pull themselves out of this - they've been struggling bad these past two decades, but this is a crash...

 

 

 

Chrysler I'm not altogether that worried about.

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Should they? Yes? Will they? No.

 

 

 

WASHINGTON -- The Senate's top Democrat called off a planned vote this week on a $25 billion auto industry bailout. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Wednesday that he wanted to figure out some way to help Detroit's struggling Big Three but that efforts to do so had stalled.

 

 

 

The White House and congressional Republicans rejected Democrats' plan to dip into the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund to finance loans to U.S. automakers.

 

 

 

A bipartisan group from auto industry states is working to cut a deal on a scaled-down aid package. If agreement can be reached, Reid said the Senate could still vote on it as part of a measure to extend jobless benefits.

 

 

 

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected head to Washington Thursday to offer her support behind aid for Detroits Big Three automakers. Her visit will come one day after the Big Three's top executives testified before senators and the possibility of a new bridge loan surfaced.

 

 

 

After a second day of testifying, Chrysler LLCs CEO Robert Nardelli, Ford President Alan Mulally and General Motors Corp. CEO Rick Wagoner, headed home.

 

 

 

Wagoner told reporters he was uncertain of what his two days on Capitol Hill had accomplished.

 

 

 

I dont know in the political process how that might play out but my sense is that there is a broader understanding that some people want to acknowledge the importance of making some moves here, he said. And were going to keep working it and Im going to remain optimistic about it to get the action we need.

 

 

 

United Auto Worker President Ron Gettelfinger agreed that he was unsure of what the outcome will be, but said he appreciated the opportunity to come to Washington.

 

 

 

I appreciate the fact that we had the opportunity to make the case, to straighten out a lot of the misconceptions that exist across America, he said.

 

 

 

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada sought to lower expectations of reaching a deal on the $25 billion proposal before Congress quits for the year.

 

 

 

While he told the Senate he still hoped lawmakers could agree to an auto deal in the "next day or two" of the current lame-duck session, he added: "If we can't do it here legislatively, I would hope that the secretary of Treasury would listen loud and clear because they could take this into their own hands and do what I think is appropriate from their perspective."

 

 

 

Responded White House press secretary Dana Perino: "There's no appetite for that." She said it was up to Congress to act.

 

 

 

Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, D-Conn., was even more downbeat, calling the possibility of reaching agreement "remote."

 

 

 

"I don't see how in the next few days this is going to move forward," Dodd told reporters. Still, he added, "That does not mean that there are not opportunities." He suggested that the Federal Reserve could possibly step up to the job.

 

 

 

The difficulties of striking a deal on the package before a new president and a new Congress with expanded Democratic majorities take office appeared to be too great to overcome. The deadlock persisted even as the heads of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler returned for a second day to plead for relief and as their congressional backers urged colleagues not to punish them for past mistakes.

 

 

 

New Deal Enters Automakers Sights

 

 

 

The White House and congressional Republicans called on Democrats to sign on to a GOP plan to divert a $25 billion loan program created by Congress in September -- designed to help the companies develop more fuel-efficient vehicles -- to meet the auto giants' immediate financial needs.

 

 

 

Michigan Democratic Sens. Carl Levin D-Mich., Sen. Debbie Stabenow D-Mich. and GOP Sens. Kit Bond R-Mo. and George Voinovich, R-Ohio were at work on that measure Wednesday, toiling to placate skeptical Democrats by including a guarantee that the fuel-efficiency loan fund would ultimately be replenished.

 

 

 

"It is the only proposal now being considered that has a chance of actually becoming law," said Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

 

 

 

But there was little sign that Democratic leaders would go along. They are vehemently opposed to letting the car companies tap that money -- set aside to help switch to vehicles that burn less gasoline -- for short-term cash-flow needs.

 

 

 

The new bill would repurpose funds from the $25 billion previously approved Energy Department loan and make the money immediately available for the cash-strapped automakers' to use for items like payroll.

 

 

 

The loans would be released in small increments such as $2 to $5 billion. Also, the loans would be paid back in installments, immediately after the funds are released, similar to a home equity line of credit.

 

 

 

In order to get the money, car companies would have to submit to congressional oversight, including bonus and golden parachute restrictions.

 

 

 

Bleak Future Forecasted For Automakers Without Aid

 

 

 

All the options leave the Big Three bracing for a bleak winter without government help. General Motors Corp. has said it could collapse within weeks, and there are indications that Chrysler LLC might not be far behind.

 

 

 

Wagoner told a House committee Wednesday that the downfall of his industry could lead to a loss of 3 million jobs within the first year and ripple through communities around the nation.

 

 

 

In sometimes contentious testimony, Wagoner was pressed on when GM would run out of money if the loans weren't extended.

 

 

 

He wouldn't say precisely, but disclosed that the company now was burning through "$5 billion each month."

 

 

 

Still, with the $25 billion emergency package, "we think we have a good shot to make it through this," Wagoner said.

 

 

 

Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Mich., appeared before the House Financial Services Committee before the automakers took the hot seat and said the American military and the nation's security would be at stake if the Big Three go under.

 

 

 

She added that the automakers build the Hummers that are used overseas and even though the Big Three have exited the defense business, many of their suppliers make parts for military vehicles.

 

 

 

"Do we want to turn that over to our competitor? I don't think so," she said.

 

 

 

Many lawmakers in both parties, however, are now openly discussing whether bankruptcy might be a better option for auto firms they regard as lumbering industrial dinosaurs that have done too little to adjust their products and work forces for the 21st century.

 

 

 

Survey Says: Big Three Bankruptcy

 

 

 

The carmakers argue that bankruptcy would devastate their companies, but proponents say it would give them a chance to reorganize and emerge stronger and more competitive.

 

 

 

It's unclear whether Democrats controlling Congress are willing to risk being blamed for letting one of the Big Three -- symbols of the nation's once-mighty manufacturing sector -- go under.

 

 

 

Bailout-shy lawmakers got an earful from jittery constituents last month when the House let an early version of the Wall Street rescue fail, sending the Dow Jones industrials tumbling and erasing more than a trillion dollars in retirement savings and other investments. Congress took a deep breath and reconsidered, passing the plan a few days later.

 

 

 

Faced with a similar collapse in the auto industry, the Bush administration might yet decide to use its authority under the $700 billion financial industry bailout to help the auto companies, or the Federal Reserve could step in -- though both have steadfastly refused to do so.

 

 

 

If not, lawmakers have left themselves a contingency plan: Come back to Washington in December for yet another postelection session where they might be able to strike the deal that now seems beyond reach.

 

 

 

Democratic leaders are planning to gather for an economic conference the week of Dec. 8, noted House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer, D-Md.

 

 

 

"That is available," Hoyer said this week. "The year has not ended."

 

 

 

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm is cutting short her trade trip to the Mideast and heading to Washington Thursday to offer her support behind a loan for Detroits Big Three automakers.

 

 

 

Granholm said approval of the loans is critical to the country's economy, energy independence and security.

 

 

 

Copyright 2008 by ClickOnDetroit.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

 

 

/thread

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They better bail them out.

 

 

 

Seriously, if they don't my HOMESTATE (Michigan) will basically not have a strong workforce!!! Sure Detroit has 3 Casinos. But who the hell is going to go bet money when they are going to be jobless?

 

 

 

The United States needs to make sure Americans buy American cars! Add a bigger tax on import cars or something.

 

 

 

Edit: BTW, if you want to know it's serious or not. People (about 8-10) in car plants are getting laid off every day.

 

 

 

Some won't even have work next week w/o pay.

 

That would ruin the free market system. Why would we buy poorly made American cars when we could get a Japanese made car that will run cleaner, longer, and more fuel efficiently.

 

 

 

And to all those that are saying "Well the American car companies are coming out with fuel efficient cars now!". It doesn't matter if they are coming out with *new* cars because most people are not buying expensive new cars. Most people are buying pre-owned cars which are not nearly as fuel efficient. Japanese cars have been being made fuel efficient for YEARS.

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