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Dragon Dagger V.S. Dragon Claws


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#41
Maulmachine
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However, from what I've seen, dragon claws ALWAYS hit. I haven't seen a 0 0 0 0 spec yet. The worst I've seen is 0 0 7 8 so far. Even on someone who was in torags and praying melee it was hitting.



Dragon claws have many aspects you are not taking into account. It hits 4 times in 1 spec, and those hits are based on the first number you hit. Dragon dagger is 2 separate hits in one, neither based on the other. If you hit a 32 on one hit, the other might be a 0. Dragon claws actually look a LOT more accurate with the spec -- again, I've seen them doing a lot better than DDS against people with 99 defence.



Also, I know you can't get 1 hit at max HP, but you can get 2 hit at max hp. My friend got 2 hit like 5 times in a row by dclaws in good gear.



DClaws may not say they're more accurate, but from the looks they always hit. So its pretty much gauranteed that DClaws is more accurate. It's a little hard to explain though, with the way dclaws seem to work.




When you 2-hit someone with DSS, maxed stats, brewed, and using tuna potato + brew, post a video please...






I owned d claws briefely for about 1 or 2 days and with 90 attack my worst spec was 0-1, I did not get 4 hits.

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#42
Cha0sx
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However, from what I've seen, dragon claws ALWAYS hit. I haven't seen a 0 0 0 0 spec yet. The worst I've seen is 0 0 7 8 so far. Even on someone who was in torags and praying melee it was hitting.



Dragon claws have many aspects you are not taking into account. It hits 4 times in 1 spec, and those hits are based on the first number you hit. Dragon dagger is 2 separate hits in one, neither based on the other. If you hit a 32 on one hit, the other might be a 0. Dragon claws actually look a LOT more accurate with the spec -- again, I've seen them doing a lot better than DDS against people with 99 defence.



Also, I know you can't get 1 hit at max HP, but you can get 2 hit at max hp. My friend got 2 hit like 5 times in a row by dclaws in good gear.



DClaws may not say they're more accurate, but from the looks they always hit. So its pretty much gauranteed that DClaws is more accurate. It's a little hard to explain though, with the way dclaws seem to work.




When you 2-hit someone with DSS, maxed stats, brewed, and using tuna potato + brew, post a video please...






I owned d claws briefely for about 1 or 2 days and with 90 attack my worst spec was 0-1, I did not get 4 hits.




Yeah I own a pair of dclaws I got as a drop (don't plan on selling, I don't have any junk) and sometimes it messes up and you get only 2 hits which are 1-0 which can happen for both specials. I don't know if it's a glitch or if JAGeX intended it to be like that to balance it out.

#43
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However, from what I've seen, dragon claws ALWAYS hit. I haven't seen a 0 0 0 0 spec yet. The worst I've seen is 0 0 7 8 so far. Even on someone who was in torags and praying melee it was hitting.



Dragon claws have many aspects you are not taking into account. It hits 4 times in 1 spec, and those hits are based on the first number you hit. Dragon dagger is 2 separate hits in one, neither based on the other. If you hit a 32 on one hit, the other might be a 0. Dragon claws actually look a LOT more accurate with the spec -- again, I've seen them doing a lot better than DDS against people with 99 defence.



Also, I know you can't get 1 hit at max HP, but you can get 2 hit at max hp. My friend got 2 hit like 5 times in a row by dclaws in good gear.



DClaws may not say they're more accurate, but from the looks they always hit. So its pretty much gauranteed that DClaws is more accurate. It's a little hard to explain though, with the way dclaws seem to work.




When you 2-hit someone with DSS, maxed stats, brewed, and using tuna potato + brew, post a video please...






I owned d claws briefely for about 1 or 2 days and with 90 attack my worst spec was 0-1, I did not get 4 hits.




Yeah I own a pair of dclaws I got as a drop (don't plan on selling, I don't have any junk) and sometimes it messes up and you get only 2 hits which are 1-0 which can happen for both specials. I don't know if it's a glitch or if JAGeX intended it to be like that to balance it out.


I believe it's because what you hit with the claws is based on some equation Jagex came up with. If you look at the specs closely you'll notice that most of the time the two lowest of the hits add up to a third and these three together add up to the other hit (roughly). This is probably why d claws are so much more acurate than the dds.

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#44
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Jagex said they get the hits(except the first one) by dividing the first hit in half to get your second hit, divide your second hit in half to get your third hit, and divide your third hit in half to get your fourth hit.

Exp.(20-10-5-3) hope this clears up the confusion
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#45
Fatteh
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Jagex said they get the hits(except the first one) by dividing the first hit in half to get your second hit, divide your second hit in half to get your third hit, and divide your third hit in half to get your fourth hit.

Exp.(20-10-5-3) hope this clears up the confusion




Not sure where you got that information from but it can't be right, have been using my friends pair of D claws and hit nothing like that. I've hit three 0's and a 41 (can't remember the order they were in).



Edit: Nvm it's really late and I misread that
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#46
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can you use spec without finishing the quest?
What?

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#47
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can you use spec without finishing the quest?




Yes, indeed you can. I've 51 Quest Points.



I'm lending my claws out now each day to get rid of my junk, then it'll be as if I bought them for trade price. 8-)

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#48
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Jagex said they get the hits(except the first one) by dividing the first hit in half to get your second hit, divide your second hit in half to get your third hit, and divide your third hit in half to get your fourth hit.

Exp.(20-10-5-3) hope this clears up the confusion




Not sure where you got that information from but it can't be right, have been using my friends pair of D claws and hit nothing like that. I've hit three 0's and a 41 (can't remember the order they were in).



Edit: Nvm it's really late and I misread that


how do people hit 36-18-18-0
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#49
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Jagex said they get the hits(except the first one) by dividing the first hit in half to get your second hit, divide your second hit in half to get your third hit, and divide your third hit in half to get your fourth hit.

Exp.(20-10-5-3) hope this clears up the confusion




Not sure where you got that information from but it can't be right, have been using my friends pair of D claws and hit nothing like that. I've hit three 0's and a 41 (can't remember the order they were in).



Edit: Nvm it's really late and I misread that


how do people hit 36-18-18-0




And how do I hit 0-0-0-31?



There is no specific pattern that I can discern from my experience with my claws.

#50
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I looked on runescape's data base and it told me that that is how they find the hits. I geuss they are wrong about the hits.
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#51
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After testing the pair I got last night with my brother, and watching several vids on YT, there doesn't seem to be a calculation. The third and fourth hits never hit over half the max, but other than that, there's no real pattern.



Also, it's fairly inaccurate. I tested it on some higher defense NPCs and it didn't hit very well. But it utterly rips pures apart.

#52
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I looked on runescape's data base and it told me that that is how they find the hits. I geuss they are wrong about the hits.


Can we get a link? I cant find that in the kb.
What.

#53
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Jagex said they get the hits(except the first one) by dividing the first hit in half to get your second hit, divide your second hit in half to get your third hit, and divide your third hit in half to get your fourth hit.

Exp.(20-10-5-3) hope this clears up the confusion




And how do I hit 0-0-0-31?



There is no specific pattern that I can discern from my experience with my claws.




Seeing as 31 is your first actual hit that could still be right. Not really sure but that's why I changed what I posted.

Although I still don't believe it's an accurate way of calculating the hits.
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#54
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Well...lets just explain how these work, to hopefully end the discussion. Your total hit cannot exceed twice your highest hit, excluding zeros. That means if you hit three zeros, your fourth hit is unaffected. I'm sick of people saying things like "the max of the fourth is 25% of your max" because its just not true. Theres no set dependence on which attack can do how much damage because I have seen plenty of 0 0 0 30 type of a special. Also, it is completely false that the second time you deal damage, it will always be 50% of your first damage, because this is also false.



Allow me restate exactly what the claw special allows: Your total damage on the special WILL NEVER exceed the damage done by your first non-zero hit. HOWEVER, when you have your first non-zero strike, the game calculates what hit it happened on, and wants to give all remaining hits a chance to strike. If you hit a damage on the first swipe, your second swipe will have a max of 50% of that damage, and your third and fourth swipes will have a max of 25% of that damage. I am unsure at this time why they decided to make it work that way instead of giving 100% 33% 33% 33%. Either they like to work in fourths and halves, or maybe they wanted to give you a chance to do more damage faster, since the four swipes do not all happen simultaneously. Further, if you hit a zero on the first swipe, but hit on your second swipe, your third and fourth swipes each have a max of 50% of that hit. (and of course, if you manage to hit two zeros for the first two swipes, each of the remaining strikes do the normal damage...and also you CAN hit 0 0 0 and then your max 100% damage)



So to visualize it better, here are some possible hits:

40 20 10 10

0 40 20 20

0 0 40 40

0 0 0 40

And here are some impossible ones:

10 20 40 10

10 8 2 0

0 20 20 0

0 0 20 25



So the question being: "Whats the big deal about these claws? If you cant hit more than double your max of a single round, why not use the DDS?"



Well, if you know anything about a DDS, you probably understand that the special is just two hits strung together, which can make it grossly inaccurate at times. So lets say you have the bad luck of hitting two zeros in a row. If using the DDS, this means you spec a 0 0 and have wasted a round of combat. If using D claws...you get two more shots. Its like having a whole new DDS spec without waiting another round of combat. This weapon is basically identical to the DDS in terms of maximum damage potential per second, which is why it makes no sense to use PvM. However, in a PvP setting, the claws are basically just a bad luck reducer. Sure, you wont be hitting any 40 40 40 40 specs on people...your total damage in a single round of combat is basically the same. However you now have a much better chance of getting a high hitting special (though you do have less special attacks)



NOTE: a couple things are still unclear atm. For example, if you hit a 40 on the first swipe, and then a 0 on the second, it is unclear if you get 50% and 50% on your final two hits. I havent been able to figure this out yet because it seems as of now that after you hit a damage, your following hits have a very high sucess rate of doing SOME damage. If anyone has footage of a 40 0 20 20 or a 40 0 0 40 type of a hit, let me know...
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#55
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Well...lets just explain how these work, to hopefully end the discussion. Your total hit cannot exceed twice your highest hit, excluding zeros. That means if you hit three zeros, your fourth hit is unaffected. I'm sick of people saying things like "the max of the fourth is 25% of your max" because its just not true. Theres no set dependence on which attack can do how much damage because I have seen plenty of 0 0 0 30 type of a special. Also, it is completely false that the second time you deal damage, it will always be 50% of your first damage, because this is also false.



Allow me restate exactly what the claw special allows: Your total damage on the special WILL NEVER exceed the damage done by your first non-zero hit. HOWEVER, when you have your first non-zero strike, the game calculates what hit it happened on, and wants to give all remaining hits a chance to strike. If you hit a damage on the first swipe, your second swipe will have a max of 50% of that damage, and your third and fourth swipes will have a max of 25% of that damage. I am unsure at this time why they decided to make it work that way instead of giving 100% 33% 33% 33%. Either they like to work in fourths and halves, or maybe they wanted to give you a chance to do more damage faster, since the four swipes do not all happen simultaneously. Further, if you hit a zero on the first swipe, but hit on your second swipe, your third and fourth swipes each have a max of 50% of that hit. (and of course, if you manage to hit two zeros for the first two swipes, each of the remaining strikes do the normal damage...and also you CAN hit 0 0 0 and then your max 100% damage)



So to visualize it better, here are some possible hits:

40 20 10 10

0 40 20 20

0 0 40 40

0 0 0 40

And here are some impossible ones:

10 20 40 10

10 8 2 0

0 20 20 0

0 0 20 25



So the question being: "Whats the big deal about these claws? If you cant hit more than double your max of a single round, why not use the DDS?"



Well, if you know anything about a DDS, you probably understand that the special is just two hits strung together, which can make it grossly inaccurate at times. So lets say you have the bad luck of hitting two zeros in a row. If using the DDS, this means you spec a 0 0 and have wasted a round of combat. If using D claws...you get two more shots. Its like having a whole new DDS spec without waiting another round of combat. This weapon is basically identical to the DDS in terms of maximum damage potential per second, which is why it makes no sense to use PvM. However, in a PvP setting, the claws are basically just a bad luck reducer. Sure, you wont be hitting any 40 40 40 40 specs on people...your total damage in a single round of combat is basically the same. However you now have a much better chance of getting a high hitting special (though you do have less special attacks)



NOTE: a couple things are still unclear atm. For example, if you hit a 40 on the first swipe, and then a 0 on the second, it is unclear if you get 50% and 50% on your final two hits. I havent been able to figure this out yet because it seems as of now that after you hit a damage, your following hits have a very high sucess rate of doing SOME damage. If anyone has footage of a 40 0 20 20 or a 40 0 0 40 type of a hit, let me know...


This is also what I have assumed to be the case.



There is also on occasion where you will hit 1 0 and that is all. You only get 2 hits, but believe it or not, it makes sense. Myweponsg00d's explanation to how the special works explains why this happens. This is due because on the first hit, you hit a 1. From my experience the 2nd hit can still hit reasonably high, but it of course can never equal or exceed the first hit. Meaning in this case, that it cannot equal or exceed 1, meaning it has to hit 0. Due to the nature of this, the last two hits don't show as it would be pointless to show (25% of 0 or 200% of 0 is still 0). So hitting a 1 for your first damage is actually worse than a 0 :lol: .





Not sure where you got that information from but it can't be right, have been using my friends pair of D claws and hit nothing like that. I've hit three 0's and a 41 (can't remember the order they were in).


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#56
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I went through some video clips of a pure PKing with dragon claws. Out of the 11 kills + ROL'd target, only three special attacks did not follow the pattern.



20 - 10 - 5 - 6

11 - 2 - 5 - 6

9 - 9 - 5 - 6



Interestingly, all three ended in "5 - 6". I admit, the second one may be off, since I can't tell if the 2 was from ring of recoil or the actual hit.



The other was a 9 - 9 - 6 - 5.



Anyways, it's safe to say that the formula posted above is wrong. There might be a special calculation, but the second third and fourth hits definitely can surpass the first.



EDIT: I'm going through YT videos now.



... re=related

0:30 has a 32 - 17 - 16

0:36 has a 26 - 13 - 14

0:41 has a 24 - 12 - 7 - 6 and 32 - 16 - 9 - 8

0:49 has a 36 - 18 - 10 - 9

0:53 has a 24 - 13 - 12



So that theory / formula is definitely wrong. However, it's interesting that when the formula is off, it's almost always off by 1. Only two examples from the video clips I have are off by more than 1, and one of them may be incorrect thanks to recoil ring.

#57
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@ Soma - The formula is correct, but varies slightly. I spent 2 hours testing them in clan wars, screenshotting hits. My hits were almost always double my max, but often were 1 over or under it. Interestingly enough, there seemed to be a pattern - I have several shots where I hit a certain number (say 36) for my first hit, and my next 3 hits were always the same, with the hits adding up to 1 over twice max. And yes, they own badly - I'll be buying my own pair in a few days. Assuming a max hit of 43 to 45 for the claws, with the average beginning hit at 22, your averaging 88 damage per 2 specs, so fast that when rushed your opponent rarely has time to eat. They work on the same animation type as rune crossbow, pausing and locking you into position during the spec then 'snapping' back to where you should be afterwords. This means that you can rush someone - especially when running, and be as much as 6 squares away while hitting them, giving them virtually no warning. If your average beginning hits for the two specs are 2-3 higher then average, and your spec doesn't miss (It is very accurate; I only specced 1-0 1-0 one time, on a 130 in torags\d fire shield. 1-0 seems to be the 'miss' spec, as it happens more frequently on high level players in good armor.), you will have a 2 hit at drag dagger speed KO. The claws do seem to hit very high frequently; Jagex may be tampering with the hits behind the scenes as they briefly hinted at in the KB.
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#58
Myweponsg00d
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I went through some video clips of a pure PKing with dragon claws. Out of the 11 kills + ROL'd target, only three special attacks did not follow the pattern.



20 - 10 - 5 - 6

11 - 2 - 5 - 6

9 - 9 - 5 - 6



Interestingly, all three ended in "5 - 6". I admit, the second one may be off, since I can't tell if the 2 was from ring of recoil or the actual hit.



The other was a 9 - 9 - 6 - 5.



Anyways, it's safe to say that the formula posted above is wrong. There might be a special calculation, but the second third and fourth hits definitely can surpass the first.



EDIT: I'm going through YT videos now.



... re=related

0:30 has a 32 - 17 - 16

0:36 has a 26 - 13 - 14

0:41 has a 24 - 12 - 7 - 6 and 32 - 16 - 9 - 8

0:49 has a 36 - 18 - 10 - 9

0:53 has a 24 - 13 - 12



So that theory / formula is definitely wrong. However, it's interesting that when the formula is off, it's almost always off by 1. Only two examples from the video clips I have are off by more than 1, and one of them may be incorrect thanks to recoil ring.




Yes, you are correct that it is not 100% accurate, and the flaw seems to be in the rounding. I have also come to notice that typically, either the 3rd or the 4th hit will be one higher than the other. i.e. I have never seen something along the lines of 20 10 6 6 it would be 20 10 6 5 or 20 10 5 6. I think that there may be a rounding mechanism in work that is designed to eliminate mechanical flaws when dealing between odd and even numbers. It seems that for the 3rd or 4th hit only, there is a possibility of one being rounded up to be one damage higher than what should be allowed. Which begs a couple of strange new possible specs. What about a 30 0 0 31? Numerically this seems possible based on the pattern. Also, it is worth noting that for the second hit (not the second damage, but only for the second SWIPE), it seems to be rounded DOWN. I am basing this on the observation that I haven't ever seen a 24 13 or a 25 13 on the first two SWIPES. The real puzzle is the 1-0 specials that then stop completely. It seems that, hypothetically, upon hitting a 1, your second swipe can have a max of 50% rounded down, which would definitely give you zero. However, it seems that for any other special, if you hit a zero on your second swipe, that damage reduction is skipped and you then have the chance to hit of 100% 0 50% 50%. Based on other maxes, it seems one of these remaining 50% hits should be able to be rounded up and give you another 1...but the spec just stops after two hits. Either there is some type of rounding complexity that I don't understand, or Jagex has designed the 1-0 case to be a specific fail case of the special.



Also this video seems to answer my question that a zero hit is always "skipped" when reducing the possible damage. the 32 0 17 16 confirms this.
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#59
Soma2035
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What really bothers me is the 9 - 9 - 6 - 5 special I saw. I may upload it sometime when I have a chance, but that one hit defeats pretty much any theory we have.



It's worth noting that the first and second hits are calculated simultaneously. That is, it doesn't really matter to the game which is first... so 0-30 is, for all intents and purposes, effectively the same as a 30-0.



EDIT: Okay, since the file is an AVI, it's absolutely huge and it would take an hour or so to upload. I could instead process it with windows movie maker, but that tends to make the results look murky, and will still take half an hour or so to convert and upload. So instead I played the video and took a screenshot of the attack.



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The two 9s appeared simultaneously. Then the 6 and 5 appeared, killing the victim.



Almost immediately after I finished taking this screenshot, my brother (who got a d claws through LS with me at Tormented Demons) hit a 12 - 9 - 4 - 3 at castle wars, which also doesn't fit the pattern we have.



My guess is that Jagex has "patterns" programmed in for whichever attack hit first.



First Two Attacks:



If both hit:



Common: One hits near max, one hits about half max

-- The last two attacks both hit about a quarter of the max.

-- One of the last two attacks hits about max, the other hits zero or one.



Uncommon: Both of them hit near max

-- The last two attacks both hit zero or one.



Rare: Both of them hit about half max

-- The last two attacks both hit about a quarter of the max.



If one hits:



It hits near max.

-- The last two attacks each hit about half



If neither hits, it goes on to the second set of two hits as if the first two hits never occurred.

#60
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Dang, I spent 250m+ on a monster with the same spec that blows in comparison to these d claws that cost a few mills.



I no longer think I got the good end of the deal. :lol:
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