Items Kept on death, and other odds and ends.

[Mischlings]

It's an interesting approach that I hadn't considered, but I'm still not convinced it could be done effectively withotu cluttering up the screen, and there would be countless rants from people who forgot to protect very high ticket drops - I know I would be one of them. As it is, the very valuable drops always have high high alch prices, limiting the damage. And thanks for accepting the constructive criticism :P

 

 

 

I actually came up with the on/off thing when thinking "What if you accidentally click to protect the wrong item?" -- this way, you only change which ones you keep when you explicitly choose to.

 

 

 

And there are already rants from people losing drops and such -- this way, you can say to them "It's your own damn fault" because they didn't do what they could to keep it. I'm one of those who believes that people should take responsibility for their own mistakes; if you have the ability to keep an item like that and don't, that's your fault, I don't want to hear your complaining.

 

 

 

I'm trying to think of how to cut down on the clutter, but as of right now, I don't have any idea of how else you could do it without opening an interface that would interfere with combat.

[compfreak847]

It's an interesting approach that I hadn't considered, but I'm still not convinced it could be done effectively withotu cluttering up the screen, and there would be countless rants from people who forgot to protect very high ticket drops - I know I would be one of them. As it is, the very valuable drops always have high high alch prices, limiting the damage. And thanks for accepting the constructive criticism :P

 

 

 

I actually came up with the on/off thing when thinking "What if you accidentally click to protect the wrong item?" -- this way, you only change which ones you keep when you explicitly choose to.

 

 

 

And there are already rants from people losing drops and such -- this way, you can say to them "It's your own damn fault" because they didn't do what they could to keep it. I'm one of those who believes that people should take responsibility for their own mistakes; if you have the ability to keep an item like that and don't, that's your fault, I don't want to hear your complaining.

 

 

 

I'm trying to think of how to cut down on the clutter, but as of right now, I don't have any idea of how else you could do it without opening an interface that would interfere with combat.

 

It's no different then people taking responsibility for what they lose now. They even designed a screen to show you exactly what your going to lose! You know what your going to lose, and it's your own fault if you risk it and die with it. I don't think it's worth cluttering the interface for no inherent benefit; many people are going to lose even more because of it, the amount of rants would likely increase, and it would be a huge pain every time your inventory changes. What if you send one of your items to your BOB? What if you bank it? What if you had to drop it to temporarily make room for another drop then picked it up again? A system based on set inventory standards is simply to ironclad and inflexible to allow for a change in what is valuable and what is not.

[Mischlings]

It's no different then people taking responsibility for what they lose now. They even designed a screen to show you exactly what your going to lose! You know what your going to lose, and it's your own fault if you risk it and die with it. I don't think it's worth cluttering the interface for no inherent benefit; many people are going to lose even more because of it, the amount of rants would likely increase, and it would be a huge pain every time your inventory changes. What if you send one of your items to your BOB? What if you bank it? What if you had to drop it to temporarily make room for another drop then picked it up again? A system based on set inventory standards is simply to ironclad and inflexible to allow for a change in what is valuable and what is not.

 

 

 

For the sake of pointing it out (I love playing Devil's Advocate), a person can't really take responsibility if they lose a drop gained during the trip as they can't really predict the value of what will be dropped. Under my proposed system, they could choose to protect that item and therefore would be responsible for not keeping it.

 

 

 

I also don't think that it would change every time your inventory changes -- how often is a drop worth more than what you already have? Multiple times a trip? Then damn, I want your luck. If you drop an item to make room for another, how valuable would that item be to you? I'm not dropping Bandos plate to pick up a hilt until I have enough room for the plate -- I'm dropping a potion, which wouldn't be in the top three items I'd keep.

 

 

 

That said, I'm not sure how much I like my idea in the first place. The system currently in place works pretty damn well. If my system were to be implemented, I think it'd be best as a setting in certain areas or only when you specifically choose it -- for normal, non-monster hunting situations, this won't matter much, so maybe if this only applied to certain situations, it could work.

 

 

 

Again, I'm not sure that I like my idea all that much -- I was coming up with something for the sake of coming up with an idea that wouldn't be immediately dismissed as bad.

[compfreak847]

For the sake of pointing it out (I love playing Devil's Advocate), a person can't really take responsibility if they lose a drop gained during the trip as they can't really predict the value of what will be dropped. Under my proposed system, they could choose to protect that item and therefore would be responsible for not keeping it.

 

Not true. Under the current system, rare, valuable monster drops are assigned a very high alch value, and unless you have 4 blessed spirit shields on you, your going to keep them.

 

 

 

I also don't think that it would change every time your inventory changes -- how often is a drop worth more than what you already have? Multiple times a trip? Then damn, I want your luck. If you drop an item to make room for another, how valuable would that item be to you? I'm not dropping Bandos plate to pick up a hilt until I have enough room for the plate -- I'm dropping a potion, which wouldn't be in the top three items I'd keep.

 

Any time I get a rare drop. And I'm referring to the act of dropping - what does it do to your on-death setup? If I drop one of the items I selected, does my drop remain tied to that item and I'll only keep 2 items if I die, or does it immediately shift to another item? How is that item determined? There are plenty of cases where a kept drop like a granite shield is the best choice for picking up an item.

 

 

 

 

That said, I'm not sure how much I like my idea in the first place. The system currently in place works pretty damn well. If my system were to be implemented, I think it'd be best as a setting in certain areas or only when you specifically choose it -- for normal, non-monster hunting situations, this won't matter much, so maybe if this only applied to certain situations, it could work.

 

But monster hunting situations are exactly where it wouldn't work - normal situations I could see it working, but anything dealing with invo changing (banking after a trip is another example; I don't want to have to remember to reset my 3 most valuble items just because I hit "bank all" when I'm gearing up again).

 

 

 

 

Again, I'm not sure that I like my idea all that much -- I was coming up with something for the sake of coming up with an idea that wouldn't be immediately dismissed as bad.

 

It's a good concept, but I'm afraid its simply too complex with too many problems and too small of an advantage over the current system, and it would serve to greatly increase visual clutter.

 

 

 

That being said, I want to say a big "Thank You" for debating this civilly and completely leaving insults out of it. It was one of the most enjoyable discussions I've had in months on TIF :P

[Mischlings]

Not true. Under the current system, rare, valuable monster drops are assigned a very high alch value, and unless you have 4 blessed spirit shields on you, your going to keep them.

 

 

 

And there are instances of, say, rune chain keeping over Armadyl Skirt. (The simpler solution would be to raise the alch value of the Armadyl skirt, but of course, since I'm arguing for the system I proposed for the sake of argument, this is evidence for a more complex flaw)

 

 

 

Any time I get a rare drop. And I'm referring to the act of dropping - what does it do to your on-death setup? If I drop one of the items I selected, does my drop remain tied to that item and I'll only keep 2 items if I die, or does it immediately shift to another item? How is that item determined? There are plenty of cases where a kept drop like a granite shield is the best choice for picking up an item.

 

 

 

The system would have to keep track of 4 items (protect item prayer). I'd say that it would default to the highest alch value, or, if you've bumped an item out of the top three, to the last one bumped out of the top 3. (Again, remember that I'm working with a very rough idea here)

 

 

 

But monster hunting situations are exactly where it wouldn't work - normal situations I could see it working, but anything dealing with invo changing (banking after a trip is another example; I don't want to have to remember to reset my 3 most valuble items just because I hit "bank all" when I'm gearing up again).

 

 

 

At the same time, monster hunting is where the most complaints come from. Again, more kinks that 5 minutes didn't fix completely.

 

 

 

It's a good concept, but I'm afraid its simply too complex with too many problems and too small of an advantage over the current system, and it would serve to greatly increase visual clutter.

 

 

 

That is probably true -- remember, I don't particularly like the idea myself.

 

 

 

That being said, I want to say a big "Thank You" for debating this civilly and completely leaving insults out of it. It was one of the most enjoyable discussions I've had in months on TIF :P

 

 

 

You're welcome -- I prefer mature debates. I've tried to follow the "Slayer sucks" debate, but it drives me insane -- I stuck through 35 pages then skipped to the end because the overall stubbornness (from all sides) and unwillingness to budge on many points drove me up the wall.

[compfreak847]

And there are instances of, say, rune chain keeping over Armadyl Skirt. (The simpler solution would be to raise the alch value of the Armadyl skirt, but of course, since I'm arguing for the system I proposed for the sake of argument, this is evidence for a more complex flaw)

 

Armadyl is the single. I'm really not sure why Jagex set the alch value so low. But I guess I could use the argument of 'who brings a rune chain to arma'? Then again, there's quite a few standard equipment sets that protect over it, but it's usually within the top four. Still, an easily corrected mistake\flaw.

 

 

 

 

At the same time, monster hunting is where the most complaints come from. Again, more kinks that 5 minutes didn't fix completely.

 

But my point is that monster hunting is where it would NOT work; complaints would be increased, item losses would be increased, and the system would have to be staggeringly complex.

 

 

 

 

You're welcome -- I prefer mature debates. I've tried to follow the "Slayer sucks" debate, but it drives me insane -- I stuck through 35 pages then skipped to the end because the overall stubbornness (from all sides) and unwillingness to budge on many points drove me up the wall.

 

:lol:

 

It's that way because people come in and out and seize upon out of context quotes. If I've been discussing something with someone for a few pages, I don't have to attach a bunch of footnotes to each sentences (I.e. we both know that what I'm talking about applies to, say, cannoning bloodvields), but someone else can come along, quote it, and say "your an idiot... that doesn't apply to dagganoths in any way". I then waste 8 posts explaining to them the background behind it, and how I was only referring to a specific situation.

 

 

 

Basically, it's all tied down with political correctness and dozens of tiny side arguemnts that obscure any real debate progress. Not my favorite, but enough good debates go on in there that I still enjoy it

[pureprayer]

posting.php?mode=post&f=37

 

 

 

Now.

[OnIIx]

Risky areas, be prepared!

 

 

 

Firecape -> Legends

 

Berserker Ring - Warrior/Life

 

Torso - BCP/Rune Plate

 

etc

 

 

 

Not hard?

[Zaaps1]

 

But I guess I could use the argument of 'who brings a rune chain to arma'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kree drops both the Armadyl Skirt and Rune Chains, I think the minions may as well.

 

 

 

http://www.tip.it/runescape/?rs2monster_id=996

[Quasar]

Onyx, risky areas like boss monsters are places where things like fire capes are most useful. I always found it to be good when say, tanking at bandos, and it's very good for corp.

[sadukar123]

A trimmed skill cape is better for tanking than Firecape. You lose less if you die, and gives better Prayer bonus so you can last longer.

[Dire_Wolf]

Those who is posting and telling "Avoid dangerous spots" and other tips on how to replace good items with bad in order to save them from being lost.

 

 

 

I have died tons times, and i have many times lost good items. That's not my point, my point is the system of death stinks.

 

 

 

Now it seems it is flawed big time, so if you try to fix it will lead to more flaws...

 

 

 

But at least i hope everyone can agree that the system is stupid.

 

 

 

If a player does not use the item that is the best and is the item he loves, then what's the point of getting it?

[compfreak847]

Those who is posting and telling "Avoid dangerous spots" and other tips on how to replace good items with bad in order to save them from being lost.

 

 

 

I have died tons times, and i have many times lost good items. That's not my point, my point is the system of death stinks.

 

 

 

Now it seems it is flawed big time, so if you try to fix it will lead to more flaws...

 

 

 

But at least i hope everyone can agree that the system is stupid.

 

 

 

If a player does not use the item that is the best and is the item he loves, then what's the point of getting it?

 

It's the best possible system. Why can't you get that through your head? It's like saying that because bandos doesn't drop a hilt every kill so you can be rich, it's a flawed system. It is the best possible option for deciding lost items! Any other system would be worse. Yeah, I don't like paying my taxes, but it's worth it to have a military and health care system that provides protection -.-

[Mischlings]

It's the best possible system. Why can't you get that through your head? It's like saying that because bandos doesn't drop a hilt every kill so you can be rich, it's a flawed system. It is the best possible option for deciding lost items! Any other system would be worse. Yeah, I don't like paying my taxes, but it's worth it to have a military and health care system that provides protection -.-

 

 

 

It's the best possible system that Jagex has thought of. There are flaws, and there is probably a way to fix the flaws. Whether by an overhaul of the system or a tweaking of certain parts (raising Armadyl Skirt alch value), these flaws can (probably) be fixed or made less prevalent. Maybe there's a better system that no one has thought of yet or maybe there isn't.

 

 

 

Bottom line: This is the best system, but there's probably a way to remove the flaws.

[Zierro]

It's the best possible system.

 

 

 

I think having the players be able to have the option to choose what items are saved on death is the best possible system. There can be an option in the Items Lost on Death screen where you rank your items based on how valuable you conceive them to be.

[Zaaps1]

It's the best possible system.

 

 

 

I think having the players be able to have the option to choose what items are saved on death is the best possible system. There can be an option in the Items Lost on Death screen where you rank your items based on how valuable you conceive them to be.

 

 

 

That would be the Utopian model, yes. But I imagine there would be many obstacles to that.

[Mischlings]

It's the best possible system.

 

 

 

I think having the players be able to have the option to choose what items are saved on death is the best possible system. There can be an option in the Items Lost on Death screen where you rank your items based on how valuable you conceive them to be.

 

 

 

That would be the Utopian model, yes. But I imagine there would be many obstacles to that.

 

 

 

There are obstacles -- look at the discussion that compfreak and I had on the last page. The problem is that every time your inventory/equipment changes, there has to be some way to determine what is kept. There are multiple obstacles to overcome and compfreak and I only mentioned a couple of them.

 

 

 

Perfect system, yes, but not the best, because there are too many obstacles that must be overcome for it to be viable. If you can overcome all those obstacles, however, you might have a better system.

[compfreak847]

It's the best possible system.

 

 

 

I think having the players be able to have the option to choose what items are saved on death is the best possible system. There can be an option in the Items Lost on Death screen where you rank your items based on how valuable you conceive them to be.

 

 

 

That would be the Utopian model, yes. But I imagine there would be many obstacles to that.

 

 

 

There are obstacles -- look at the discussion that compfreak and I had on the last page. The problem is that every time your inventory/equipment changes, there has to be some way to determine what is kept. There are multiple obstacles to overcome and compfreak and I only mentioned a couple of them.

 

 

 

Perfect system, yes, but not the best, because there are too many obstacles that must be overcome for it to be viable. If you can overcome all those obstacles, however, you might have a better system.

 

But to the best of my knowledge, these obstacles have no solution that is superior to the current system. The simple fact is that your inventory changes far too often to deal with a set item being the most valuble - with hundreds of 'valuable' items that can change precedence every few minutes, having to remember to manually set your items just doesn't work. If I change outfits for a slayer task, I know I'm going to forget to set my bandos chest and tassets to most valuable some of the time, resulting in me losing them over the other, far cheaper items. The greatly increased risk of high ticket items being lost just doesn't balance against the slightly reduced risk of low ticket items (that would probably be lost even under the new system) being lost.

 

 

 

Basically, it boils down to this:

 

 

 

There are only three ways to determine the value of an item in RS: High alch, Market price on GE, and Personal Choice. Market price on GE is out, there are too many nontradables like fire cape and damaged barrows items. That leaves us with high alch and personal choice. Personal choice is the only alternative; and it has thus far been proven to be too unwieldy and cumbers-um to deal with a constantly changing inventory.

 

 

 

@Zero: Thank you for keeping flaming and insults out of your post. I'm quite impressed by how long this thread has gone without a stuipd, flaming, whiny, immature, or unnecessarily insulting posts (with the possible exception of my response to Hemen, I was somewhat frustrated by lack of reading). We're going on 3 pages now. Good work, TIF. :)

[OnIIx]

Onyx, risky areas like boss monsters are places where things like fire capes are most useful. I always found it to be good when say, tanking at bandos, and it's very good for corp.

 

 

 

u r has samrtz

 

 

 

How about a Godcape at Bandos, you know, 1 more invertory for a brew?

[compfreak847]

Onyx, risky areas like boss monsters are places where things like fire capes are most useful. I always found it to be good when say, tanking at bandos, and it's very good for corp.

 

 

 

u r has samrtz

 

 

 

How about a Godcape at Bandos, you know, 1 more invertory for a brew?

 

I almost hate to ask, but... What the heck are you talking about? If it's items, your bandos tassets for solo cover the item needed quite handily, and for team bandos (by far the majority), you need inventory space far more then you need extra potions.

[Mischlings]

Basically, it boils down to this:

 

 

 

There are only three ways to determine the value of an item in RS: High alch, Market price on GE, and Personal Choice. Market price on GE is out, there are too many nontradables like fire cape and damaged barrows items. That leaves us with high alch and personal choice. Personal choice is the only alternative; and it has thus far been proven to be too unwieldy and cumbers-um to deal with a constantly changing inventory.

 

 

 

I agree with that; however, there might be a way to make personal choice work -- I have no idea what it might be, but it is something to think about. If someone can find it, great -- if not, we have the best system we can come up with right now.

 

 

 

I think we can agree on this much: high alch value is the best system we currently know of. If there's a way to make personal choice work without being so unwieldy, then I can't think of who wouldn't like it, making it a better system, but if there isn't a way, then what we have is still a very good system.

[compfreak847]

Basically, it boils down to this:

 

 

 

There are only three ways to determine the value of an item in RS: High alch, Market price on GE, and Personal Choice. Market price on GE is out, there are too many nontradables like fire cape and damaged barrows items. That leaves us with high alch and personal choice. Personal choice is the only alternative; and it has thus far been proven to be too unwieldy and cumbers-um to deal with a constantly changing inventory.

 

 

 

I agree with that; however, there might be a way to make personal choice work -- I have no idea what it might be, but it is something to think about. If someone can find it, great -- if not, we have the best system we can come up with right now.

 

 

 

I think we can agree on this much: high alch value is the best system we currently know of. If there's a way to make personal choice work without being so unwieldy, then I can't think of who wouldn't like it, making it a better system, but if there isn't a way, then what we have is still a very good system.

 

Yes, that's what it boils down to. But I highly doubt there IS a better way to work personal choice; there's really not a whole lot of options for it.

[Zierro]

Of course it doesn't have to force you to choose your saved items each time your inventory changes, but you have the option of picking which 3/4 items are your most valuable. If you do not pick, then the computer will pick for you, and if that happens then you don't have an argument against the Items Lost on Death system because it was your fault for not picking which items you want to be saved.

[Gmesh]

It'd be nice if we got to choose what we kept on death but... It'd get annoying and prolly wont happen :cry:

[Omali]

The biggest problem Runescape faces with this is that the game is online, persistant, and cannot be paused.

 

 

 

Sure you could have the menu come up on death, but what then? Do you allow it to stay up as long as the person needs, and allow for them to wait for a friend to come by and bless the grave? Do you put a time limit on it? What happens then if someone lags out and misses the time-deadline? Does the gravestone timer start at death or after the items are chosen?

 

 

 

The biggest problem I see with choosing items on death is that it will make the economy even more out of whack than it is now. Armor and weapons are where they are because of their drop value. If you allowed more expensive items to be kept on death, you would just end up with expensive armors and weapons with low alch value tanking because no one is losing them. Take the Guthan Spear for example, it's the most expensive because you lose it out of the set, and the set itself isn't exactly a common item (Not as common as say, Rune).

 

 

 

If runescape was a single player game without a player driven economy, this would work. Otherwise, there are a lot less problems under the current system.