Items Kept on death, and other odds and ends.

[Dire_Wolf]

The biggest problem Runescape faces with this is that the game is online, persistant, and cannot be paused.

 

 

 

Sure you could have the menu come up on death, but what then? Do you allow it to stay up as long as the person needs, and allow for them to wait for a friend to come by and bless the grave? Do you put a time limit on it? What happens then if someone lags out and misses the time-deadline? Does the gravestone timer start at death or after the items are chosen?

 

 

 

The biggest problem I see with choosing items on death is that it will make the economy even more out of whack than it is now. Armor and weapons are where they are because of their drop value. If you allowed more expensive items to be kept on death, you would just end up with expensive armors and weapons with low alch value tanking because no one is losing them. Take the Guthan Spear for example, it's the most expensive because you lose it out of the set, and the set itself isn't exactly a common item (Not as common as say, Rune).

 

 

 

If runescape was a single player game without a player driven economy, this would work. Otherwise, there are a lot less problems under the current system.

 

Honestly i don't mind dieing, but it's nasty to loose precious items that you worked hard for only to keep the ones that's absolutely waste in everywhere way.

 

 

 

But doesn't seem like the death system can be fixed.

[compfreak847]

Of course it doesn't have to force you to choose your saved items each time your inventory changes, but you have the option of picking which 3/4 items are your most valuable. If you do not pick, then the computer will pick for you, and if that happens then you don't have an argument against the Items Lost on Death system because it was your fault for not picking which items you want to be saved.

 

So what happens if I'm slaying in proslyte + verac skirt, and I pick to keep my whip, defender, and fury because I don't want to get another defender. I then bank my proslete and withdraw bandos tassets and chestplate to continue slaying on another monster. I'm not paying much attention, and I accidentally die; it sucks that I lost my whip, but it's only 1.5m, right? Oh wait.. I just lost 24m! What if I pick to save my fury, karils top, and verac helm at Armadyl, then get myself a nice LSed hilt. I accidentally die when I'm trying to duo with a team and my teammate teles without telling me. Oh well, 1m from karils lost isn't that bad, considering I just got a hilt, right? Oh wait, make that 65m...

 

 

 

I could go on about DKS etc. etc., but the bottom line is that it's far too easy to forget (who remembers to change their death items every time they bank or get a drop?) and would create far more problems.

 

 

 

 

Honestly i don't mind dieing, but it's nasty to loose precious items that you worked hard for only to keep the ones that's absolutely waste in everywhere way.

 

 

 

But doesn't seem like the death system can be fixed.

 

You can't fix what aint broken. Sure, sometimes it gyps you and you lose something you don't want to, but it's the best of all possible solutions.

 

 

 

That being said, I'm glad you finally see my point -.-

[D Jay99]

This morning I died at bork, lost my dragon axe (for jade vine), fire cape and karils over whip/d hally/fury :P

 

 

 

Funny enough, I always seem to die where you can't get to your grave (quest areas and stuff).

 

 

 

Got 2 more defenders and currently on wave 53 of fight caves :)

 

 

 

No idea if this post has any discussion value but I felt like posting it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Got it :mrgreen:

[compfreak847]

This morning I died at bork, lost my dragon axe (for jade vine), fire cape and karils over whip/d hally/fury :P

 

 

 

Funny enough, I always seem to die where you can't get to your grave (quest areas and stuff).

 

 

 

Got 2 more defenders and currently on wave 53 of fight caves :)

 

 

 

No idea if this post has any discussion value but I felt like posting it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Got it :mrgreen:

 

Big congrats. You did the right thing, instead of going on rants and venting about an unfixable problem, you worked through and recovered. That's amazing, I would be royally pissed if I lost that much + defender + fire cape :shock: :shock:

[D Jay99]

[hide=Post]

This morning I died at bork, lost my dragon axe (for jade vine), fire cape and karils over whip/d hally/fury :P

 

 

 

Funny enough, I always seem to die where you can't get to your grave (quest areas and stuff).

 

 

 

Got 2 more defenders and currently on wave 53 of fight caves :)

 

 

 

No idea if this post has any discussion value but I felt like posting it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Got it :mrgreen:

[/hide]

 

Big congrats. You did the right thing, instead of going on rants and venting about an unfixable problem, you worked through and recovered. That's amazing, I would be royally pissed if I lost that much + defender + fire cape :shock: :shock:

 

I was browsing tif like I usually do while I kill bork after the cutscene, and apparently the mage hit me high or something so when I switched back I was in fally. I wasn't really that annoyed, just surprised it actually happened after 200+ borks. Then I was like 'Meh, waste of time. Guess I'll go get it back :| '.

 

That really is advisable, I now have everything back (because I still had my addy defender ) and all it has cost me are that bones that should have gotten me 84-85 pray (well, slightly more but that was just deducted from my cash pile) :P

[compfreak847]

[hide=Post]

This morning I died at bork, lost my dragon axe (for jade vine), fire cape and karils over whip/d hally/fury :P

 

 

 

Funny enough, I always seem to die where you can't get to your grave (quest areas and stuff).

 

 

 

Got 2 more defenders and currently on wave 53 of fight caves :)

 

 

 

No idea if this post has any discussion value but I felt like posting it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Got it :mrgreen:

[/hide]

 

Big congrats. You did the right thing, instead of going on rants and venting about an unfixable problem, you worked through and recovered. That's amazing, I would be royally pissed if I lost that much + defender + fire cape :shock: :shock:

 

I was browsing tif like I usually do while I kill bork after the cutscene, and apparently the mage hit me high or something so when I switched back I was in fally. I wasn't really that annoyed, just surprised it actually happened after 200+ borks. Then I was like 'Meh, waste of time. Guess I'll go get it back :| '.

 

That really is advisable, I now have everything back (because I still had my addy defender <3:) and all it has cost me are that bones that should have gotten me 84-85 pray (well, slightly more but that was just deducted from my cash pile) :P

 

Yeah, I had almost exactly the same thing happen to me. Suddenly found out I was at 21 HP and forgot to withdraw my tele. Was in bandos and all my leet gear from monster hunting, woulda lost around 40m. Luckily I made it out by killing him and home teleing (he was red barred, I didn't have time to run to the portal, I was praying that the mage didn't decide to cast a spell in the last few secondss).

[mervinator_9]

It seems to me that a blend of the current system and the proposed system in which you choose what items you keep on death would work without massive issues.

 

 

 

So if you dont choose what you want to keep on death and end up dying well I guess it would be a case of tough luck but if you do then your choosen item(s) remains as a protected item until you remove it from your inventory, unequip it or use it. As soon as you die with said items you get a message reminding you either:

 

 

 

a) what your keep on death items are, or

 

B) that your items have reset to the system of which is most valuable.

 

 

 

Granted, that system isnt streamlined or perfect but I would allow someone who is really worried about their items to make sure they keep hold of them and people who die and feel cheated by the current system would really only have themselves to blame.

 

 

 

Tbh I think its difficult to gauge the impact this would have on the economy of certain items but really the only outcome I can see would be that certain items prices fall, which could possibly be combated by lowering there drop rate?

[compfreak847]

It seems to me that a blend of the current system and the proposed system in which you choose what items you keep on death would work without massive issues.

 

 

 

So if you dont choose what you want to keep on death and end up dying well I guess it would be a case of tough luck but if you do then your choosen item(s) remains as a protected item until you remove it from your inventory, unequip it or use it. As soon as you die with said items you get a message reminding you either:

 

 

 

a) what your keep on death items are, or

 

B) that your items have reset to the system of which is most valuable.

 

 

 

Granted, that system isnt streamlined or perfect but I would allow someone who is really worried about their items to make sure they keep hold of them and people who die and feel cheated by the current system would really only have themselves to blame.

 

 

 

Tbh I think its difficult to gauge the impact this would have on the economy of certain items but really the only outcome I can see would be that certain items prices fall, which could possibly be combated by lowering there drop rate?

 

And my point is that the chances of forgetting to change it - even once - and dying to lose dozens of million in very high end items isn't worth the small chance that you'll save the price of a low ticket item. And that doesn't even count rare monster drops!

 

 

 

Literally EVERY item that comes from a monster would have to have its drop rate nerfed, balancing it out so the average person lost fewer items on death but gained fewer items on monster, ending up with the same overall bank value, further changing the game from skill based to luck based and VASTLY complicating the items on death scenario, while actually making the problem described worse. Bad idea. Sorry, but the current idea is the best. Jagex didn't become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through.

[mervinator_9]

Sorry, but the current idea is the best. Jagex didn't become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through.

 

You really believe that the current system cant be improved upon at all? I think thats pretty poor to be honest, granted its easy for me to type a couple lines and call it a solution when it has gaping holes but surely it can be changed to the extent that once in a while it can work to someones advantage without massive changes.

 

 

 

Fair enough the idea of changing drop rates is much easier said than done, but really i guess thats just me overlooking one of the issues and covering it to late down the line.

 

 

 

And as I see it JaGex did become become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through at times, they've done it several ocassions and often corrected them at later dates. Anyway failing to think things through and changing old systems to incorparate changes to an ever evolving games are different things entirely. It not a case of the old system being unplayable, its simply a case of changing things in minor ways to improve it.

 

 

 

Anyway the basis of what I tried to say in my old post (which upon re-reading is not clear) was that the value system remains in place but could be over ridden manually to allow a player to select a fire cape for example over a lesser item.

 

 

 

I see what your saying about it making a complicated system but i think its one people who really cared what items they kept would get use to, If you didnt want to take time to use it you wouldn't have to.

[compfreak847]

 

You really believe that the current system cant be improved upon at all? I think thats pretty poor to be honest, granted its easy for me to type a couple lines and call it a solution when it has gaping holes but surely it can be changed to the extent that once in a while it can work to someones advantage without massive changes.

 

Not without it counterbalancing by working against another person.

 

 

 

 

And as I see it JaGex did become become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through at times, they've done it several ocassions and often corrected them at later dates.

 

Name a single instance where they thought something through, changed it, and later changed it again without a single ounce of feedback or additional info. Any update that a single person complained about or pointed out a single issue doesn't count, as that's extra info. For a set of given information there isn't a single case where they failed to think things through.

 

 

 

 

I see what your saying about it making a complicated system but i think its one people who really cared what items they kept would get use to, If you didnt want to take time to use it you wouldn't have to.

 

I don't see how increasing overall value lost as well as unbalancing the economy and cost\reward balance of every monster is going to benefit ANYONE.

[Mischlings]

Name a single instance where they thought something through, changed it, and later changed it again without a single ounce of feedback or additional info. Any update that a single person complained about or pointed out a single issue doesn't count, as that's extra info. For a set of given information there isn't a single case where they failed to think things through.

 

 

 

So just because people complained about it means that it is impossible that Jagex would've seen that there was a problem? The great thing about you making that statement is that you cannot be proven wrong by the criteria that you give above, as every single update has had at least one person complain.

 

 

 

The problem here is that we can't assume that Jagex wouldn't have seen their error if no one said anything about it.

[mervinator_9]

 

 

And as I see it JaGex did become become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through at times, they've done it several ocassions and often corrected them at later dates.

 

Name a single instance where they thought something through, changed it, and later changed it again without a single ounce of feedback or additional info. Any update that a single person complained about or pointed out a single issue doesn't count, as that's extra info. For a set of given information there isn't a single case where they failed to think things through.

 

Wait a second an "instance where they thought something through, changed it, and later changed it again without a single ounce of feedback or additional info" is different from failing to think things through, instances of that are numerous off the top of my head I could call out the loss of the rants forum which only months later was recreated and called a stupid decision for removing it in the first place.

 

 

 

Im not quite sure of an instance that you want me to give an example of or really what you mean (thats not a snipe, i guess im just being slow)

 

 

 

 

I don't see how increasing overall value lost as well as unbalancing the economy and cost\reward balance of every monster is going to benefit ANYONE.

 

Overall value lost (If your refering to the overall value lost by all players due to the being "cheated" by the system?) may or may not change, in fact if I had to guess I would think it would increase at first and then decrease when people became adjusted to the new system or stopped using it after learning the hard way it would need some managing.

 

 

 

Not without it counterbalancing by working against another person.

 

If by this you mean the system with which you choose your items kept on death would redude prices of certain items and as a result make the people who get these drops less money then I see how its affecting other people but in my personal opinion the bonuses for the average player would out weigh the negatives.

[compfreak847]

 

Wait a second an "instance where they thought something through, changed it, and later changed it again without a single ounce of feedback or additional info" is different from failing to think things through, instances of that are numerous off the top of my head I could call out the loss of the rants forum which only months later was recreated and called a stupid decision for removing it in the first place.

 

Exactly. But given a set of information, they think things through to come up with the best possible result. Sure, sometimes a few months later they find out that someone abused it or a previously-unheard of section was affected by it and it requires correction, but those are impossible to predict.

 

 

 

 

Overall value lost (If your refering to the overall value lost by all players due to the being "cheated" by the system?) may or may not change, in fact if I had to guess I would think it would increase at first and then decrease when people became adjusted to the new system or stopped using it after learning the hard way it would need some managing.

 

I'm saying it would go up - someone would have to die and lose their dragon boots hundreds of times to counter ONE person losing a hilt in the above mentioned manner.

 

 

 

 

If by this you mean the system with which you choose your items kept on death would redude prices of certain items and as a result make the people who get these drops less money then I see how its affecting other people but in my personal opinion the bonuses for the average player would out weigh the negatives.

 

One person saves his dragon boots, another person loses his newly-dropped Berserker ring. See above.

 

 

 

 

So just because people complained about it means that it is impossible that Jagex would've seen that there was a problem? The great thing about you making that statement is that you cannot be proven wrong by the criteria that you give above, as every single update has had at least one person complain.

 

That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Just because there isn't an example to prove or disprove what your saying doesn't mean it's automatically correct, or indeed, by definition, has anything to do with you being correct.

 

 

 

 

The problem here is that we can't assume that Jagex wouldn't have seen their error if no one said anything about it.

 

But we can't assume they would have, so we have to go with the most likely option.

[Mischlings]

So just because people complained about it means that it is impossible that Jagex would've seen that there was a problem? The great thing about you making that statement is that you cannot be proven wrong by the criteria that you give above, as every single update has had at least one person complain.

 

 

 

That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Just because there isn't an example to prove or disprove what your saying doesn't mean it's automatically correct, or indeed, by definition, has anything to do with you being correct.

 

 

 

It is fully relevant -- I feel like I'm on Matlock. You're saying this:

 

 

 

Jagex cannot see their own problems without outside help.

 

Every single complaint is outside help.

 

 

 

From there, this is what happens:

 

 

 

Since every update has been complained about,

 

then every change Jagex has made has been with outside help,

 

therefore Jagex cannot see their problems with outside help.

 

 

 

Circular reasoning.

 

 

 

The problem here is that we can't assume that Jagex wouldn't have seen their error if no one said anything about it.

 

But we can't assume they would have, so we have to go with the most likely option.

 

 

 

And the most likely option is that they keep on being stupid, make a mistake, and NEVER FIX IT? The Gowers made a fortune acting like morons?

[compfreak847]

 

It is fully relevant -- I feel like I'm on Matlock. You're saying this:

 

 

 

Jagex cannot see their own problems without outside help.

 

Every single complaint is outside help.

 

 

 

From there, this is what happens:

 

 

 

Since every update has been complained about,

 

then every change Jagex has made has been with outside help,

 

therefore Jagex cannot see their problems with outside help.

 

 

 

Circular reasoning.

 

Exactly. Therefore, simplest explanation wins. That was my entire point. I'm glad it's clear now, I could have explained it better :P

 

 

 

And the most likely option is that they keep on being stupid, make a mistake, and NEVER FIX IT? The Gowers made a fortune acting like morons?

 

May I ask what that has to do with ANYTHING? You appear to have either completely misread my posts or totally misunderstood what I've been trying to say. What I am saying is that Jagex decisions are the best for the current information - they launch the updates that appear to be the best choice for the game. It's quite obvious that this would be done as a buisness, and I'm not sure why it's so hotly contested.

[Mischlings]

Exactly. Therefore, simplest explanation wins. That was my entire point. I'm glad it's clear now, I could have explained it better :P

 

 

 

I showed that you used a logical fallacy. How, exactly, does that win anything?

 

 

 

I'd respond to the rest if I thought you'd see through the haze of [cabbage] that seems to be in front of your face recently. I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall is more prone to listening.

[compfreak847]

I showed that you used a logical fallacy. How, exactly, does that win anything?

 

Because my entire point was that you based an argument on a logical fallacy. Therefore, anything you said about "providing updates proving it" was invalid and didn't contribute to your argument.

 

 

 

I'd respond to the rest if I thought you'd see through the haze of [cabbage] that seems to be in front of your face recently. I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall is more prone to listening.

 

And therein ends the 'mature post' streak. 45 posts before the thread degenerated. Better then what I expected, but the old TIF did so much better. Disappointing to see what we've turned into. I'd give a lot for a mature debate with someone like Muggi. I argued for over a year with him without a single insult.

 

 

 

In response to your post: Sorry, but you need to separate opinions from facts. I posted a statement, namely that Jagex decisions are the best for the current information - they launch the updates that appear to be the best choice for the game. That is an opinion, but it marks the best possible alternative given the complete lack of evidence for the subject at hand.

[Mischlings]

I showed that you used a logical fallacy. How, exactly, does that win anything?

 

Because my entire point was that you based an argument on a logical fallacy. Therefore, anything you said about "providing updates proving it" was invalid and didn't contribute to your argument.

 

 

 

You're missing something, because what you said wasn't even a response to an argument that I made. In addition, you used circular reasoning to defend your own position, then pull this argument that I supposedly made out of nowhere to say that I tried to use circular reasoning in an argument that I never made.

 

 

 

I don't see any proof of anything there.

 

 

 

And yes, I did get a little immature in the last post, I'm just at wit's end. And "The old TIF"? -- get over yourself.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I'm saying that you can't automatically assume you're right.

[compfreak847]

 

You're missing something, because what you said wasn't even a response to an argument that I made. In addition, you used circular reasoning to defend your own position, then pull this argument that I supposedly made out of nowhere to say that I tried to use circular reasoning in an argument that I never made.

 

 

 

I don't see any proof of anything there.

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=791116&start=40#p6598867

 

*sigh*

 

JaGex did become become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through at times, they've done it several ocassions and often corrected them at later dates.

 

 

 

 

And "The old TIF"? -- get over yourself.

 

Why? Why is it I can't say that the old TIF stayed on topic longer and give examples to back it up?

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I'm saying that you can't automatically assume you're right.

 

See above; simplest and most probable explanation wins with lack of other evidence.

[Deathmath]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

 

 

 

It wasn't circular reasoning and although Occam's razor does not entirely apply here it's idea does.

 

 

 

And the old TIF is in one way overrated called up when ever a random neeb surfaces. :x but it does have a certain amount of truth to it as well.

[Mischlings]

 

You're missing something, because what you said wasn't even a response to an argument that I made. In addition, you used circular reasoning to defend your own position, then pull this argument that I supposedly made out of nowhere to say that I tried to use circular reasoning in an argument that I never made.

 

 

 

I don't see any proof of anything there.

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=791116&start=40#p6598867

 

*sigh*

 

JaGex did become become the second largest online game corporation in the world by failing to think things through at times, they've done it several ocassions and often corrected them at later dates.

 

 

 

1) Not my argument

 

2) If they thought through things so thoroughly, why do some updates have gaping holes that can best be attributed to a lack of thinking things through?

 

 

 

Why? Why is it I can't say that the old TIF stayed on topic longer and give examples to back it up?

 

 

 

Potential selection bias, sounds condescending to the people it's directed at, and I've been here longer than you have, but what does that really matter? People are defined by who they are, not when they are.

 

 

 

See above; simplest and most probable explanation wins with lack of other evidence.

 

 

 

So the simplest explanation is that clearly bad ideas were thoroughly thought through?

[Deathmath]

Just don't flame *sigh* It had supporting details, whether you agree with it or not you can have a debate but there is no reason to go so low :|

[compfreak847]

 

1) Not my argument

 

Really? Someone must have hacked your account and posted it :|

 

2) If they thought through things so thoroughly, why do some updates have gaping holes that can best be attributed to a lack of thinking things through

 

Start providing examples. Hindsight is 20\20; without impossibly long Q&A testing, some bugs simply cannot be spotted. See the DD on spam clicking the dance emote while attacking the KQ with a rubber chicken. http://www.runescape.com/kbase/viewarti ... cle_id=635

 

 

 

 

So the simplest explanation is that clearly bad ideas were thoroughly thought through?

 

No, the simplest explanation is that clearly bad ideas were not thought to be so until a massive amount of gameplay time revealed a tiny flaw that no reasonable amount of Q&A could reveal. Take, for example, the recent Wildy bug: It took nearly 7 months of gameplay, at an average of 125,000 hours logged per physical hour - a total of 87,000,000 hours of gameplay - to reveal it. It was sealed by Jagex in a couple of hours. At the current minimum wage in the UK, it would take 739,500,000 USD to find that - and that's minimum wage, not skilled gaming professional wage.

[Mischlings]

 

1) Not my argument

 

Really? Someone must have hacked your account and posted it :|

 

 

 

You quoted mervinator, not me.

 

 

 

Start providing examples. Hindsight is 20\20; without impossibly long Q&A testing, some bugs simply cannot be spotted. See the DD on spam clicking the dance emote while attacking the KQ with a rubber chicken. http://www.runescape.com/kbase/viewarti ... cle_id=635

 

 

 

Duel Arena is the first one that comes to mind. When the changes were first made, the cap was 3k, throwing away hundreds or thousands of hours that people had spend optimizing their characters and dueling strategies with such a tiny compensation that it's laughable.

 

 

 

No, the simplest explanation is that clearly bad ideas were not thought to be so until a massive amount of gameplay time revealed a tiny flaw that no reasonable amount of Q&A could reveal.

 

 

 

Explain the duel arena change above. It was an overreaction that wasn't thought out that well.

[compfreak847]

You quoted mervinator, not me.

 

That would quite effectively explain why we've been having communication problems :-w

 

 

 

 

Duel Arena is the first one that comes to mind. When the changes were first made, the cap was 3k, throwing away hundreds or thousands of hours that people had spend optimizing their characters and dueling strategies with such a tiny compensation that it's laughable.

 

 

 

Explain the duel arena change above. It was an overreaction that wasn't thought out that well.

 

 

Are you talking about the limit itself, or that it was so low? I'll respond to both:

 

 

 

Limit itself: Hellooo, welcome to RWT world. It was a choice of either change the gameplay of a very tiny fraction of their userbase or shut down the game.

 

 

 

That it was so low: Very smart move. Even at 60k\h, the current max, a high level dueler would never find a max of 240k\h a decent income. Staking for money was completely killed irregardless of the limit, and they had to make sure no one was going to do the "limit every 15 minutes" type of trade.

 

 

 

 

Potential selection bias

 

So what? I'm biased towards smart people, because I believe their responses are generally better thought out then the village idiot. You can't go calling every fact that points out some groups of people are different bad because it's "biased"; bias is bad when taken to extremes, but it's also a fact of life.

 

sounds condescending to the people it's directed at

 

Sorry, but you'll have to live with that. It's also condescending to say that Nigerians have a lower average income then USA households. I'm here to prove myself correct, not to make you feel good about yourself.

 

 

 

and I've been here longer than you have

 

You weren't an active poster. When your posts were count, not how long you've been lurking.

 

 

 

but what does that really matter? People are defined by who they are, not when they are.

 

So what? I'm saying that this discussion strayed to immature flaming in 45 posts, something the old TIF was able to manage for far longer. It's a fact, not an opinion, about a group of people.

 

 

 

Time for bed, church tomorrow. I'll be on later to continue this.