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Macroers getting rebanned


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#41
k1masato
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A little bit off topic.. but how long does it take before you get your appeal answered ( on average ) ? It's been more than 2 weeks and still no response -.-.

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#42
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It's illegal in the United States (according to the constitution) and the UK (common law) to retry someone a second time for the same crime. It's called double jeopardy.


Only when new evidence arises, in England at least.


Unless it is linked to the present conviction. Read Prisoner of Birth, it is a good example of this.

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#43
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It's illegal in the United States (according to the constitution) and the UK (common law) to retry someone a second time for the same crime. It's called double jeopardy.



It seems like a similar thing here- Jagex, the judge, decided to unban the characters. To go back in and re-ban them seems to be a violation of rights. I know it's a stretch, but video game law in itself is a stretch.


That's not relevant here. Botting in an online game isn't illegal, it merely violates Jagex' ingame policy. Jagex is no law enforcer. And since they own the accounts, they can pretty much do what they want. They can ban you a gazillion times if that makes them happy.



The only thing is that people pay for the game, in order to receive certain content. When that content is removed from the player (due to a ban for violating the rules), then you're not getting what you've payed for. And THAT might be against the rules. I don't know what the legislation is regarding this subject, but I know from something else I'm involved with that when we banned someone that had payed for our services, we could still ban them, but legally, we couldn't revoke access to the content that they'd payed for. Either that or giving money back.



Therefore, I wonder how Jagex can legally ban accounts with membership credit on it, and not give back any money. I'm sure they state it somewhere in their terms and agreements, but their policy doesn't stand above the law. It's not that I care that much, I won't get banned, but I was just wondering about the facts on this subject.

#44
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It's illegal in the United States (according to the constitution) and the UK (common law) to retry someone a second time for the same crime. It's called double jeopardy.



It seems like a similar thing here- Jagex, the judge, decided to unban the characters. To go back in and re-ban them seems to be a violation of rights. I know it's a stretch, but video game law in itself is a stretch.


That's not relevant here. Botting in an online game isn't illegal, it merely violates Jagex' ingame policy. Jagex is no law enforcer. And since they own the accounts, they can pretty much do what they want. They can ban you a gazillion times if that makes them happy.



The only thing is that people pay for the game, in order to receive certain content. When that content is removed from the player (due to a ban for violating the rules), then you're not getting what you've payed for. And THAT might be against the rules. I don't know what the legislation is regarding this subject, but I know from something else I'm involved with that when we banned someone that had payed for our services, we could still ban them, but legally, we couldn't revoke access to the content that they'd payed for. Either that or giving money back.



Therefore, I wonder how Jagex can legally ban accounts with membership credit on it, and not give back any money. I'm sure they state it somewhere in their terms and agreements, but their policy doesn't stand above the law. It's not that I care that much, I won't get banned, but I was just wondering about the facts on this subject.


Banning people and making them waste $5 is not stealing, not against the law, not a crim, etc. See, when we decide to become members of Runescape by paying for membership we agree on a contract. That contract stipulates that if we are to break any rules we will break the contract and therefore lose the account. By breaking a rule we are actually more at fault that Jagex. If anyone is commiting a crime it is the rulebreaker, not Jagex. Breach of contract anyone?

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#45
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I think it is good that those that cheated in the past aren't being given a second chance, but unbanning someone that didn't deserve it in the first place, allowing them to put so much money on their account and then bringing down the hammer again? That isn't right Jagex.

#46
Bauke
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It's illegal in the United States (according to the constitution) and the UK (common law) to retry someone a second time for the same crime. It's called double jeopardy.



It seems like a similar thing here- Jagex, the judge, decided to unban the characters. To go back in and re-ban them seems to be a violation of rights. I know it's a stretch, but video game law in itself is a stretch.


That's not relevant here. Botting in an online game isn't illegal, it merely violates Jagex' ingame policy. Jagex is no law enforcer. And since they own the accounts, they can pretty much do what they want. They can ban you a gazillion times if that makes them happy.



The only thing is that people pay for the game, in order to receive certain content. When that content is removed from the player (due to a ban for violating the rules), then you're not getting what you've payed for. And THAT might be against the rules. I don't know what the legislation is regarding this subject, but I know from something else I'm involved with that when we banned someone that had payed for our services, we could still ban them, but legally, we couldn't revoke access to the content that they'd payed for. Either that or giving money back.



Therefore, I wonder how Jagex can legally ban accounts with membership credit on it, and not give back any money. I'm sure they state it somewhere in their terms and agreements, but their policy doesn't stand above the law. It's not that I care that much, I won't get banned, but I was just wondering about the facts on this subject.


Banning people and making them waste $5 is not stealing, not against the law, not a crim, etc. See, when we decide to become members of Runescape by paying for membership we agree on a contract. That contract stipulates that if we are to break any rules we will break the contract and therefore lose the account. By breaking a rule we are actually more at fault that Jagex. If anyone is commiting a crime it is the rulebreaker, not Jagex. Breach of contract anyone?


Yes, it's a breach of the terms and conditions which you have agreed with. Though, when you have someone pay for a certain service, you can't just revoke that service just because they didn't obey your rules. Jagex' policy isn't a part of the law, so...



I'm not talking about who's at fault, I'm talking about the legislation regarding this subject. I'm talking about whether it's legally possible to exclude paying customers from what they've payed for when they've breached the rules of the game. Aren't they entitled to a restitution? Again, I'm just wondering about what the legislation is on this subject.

#47
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Choo


Yeah it is legally possible. Like i said before. contract breach is the crime, not excluding a paying consumor. There is nothing that says "we give refunds" but there is something that sais "break the rules and we shall take away your privalage". So keeping this in mind Jagex has full power to do whit that account whatever they please, and so do you as account owner, aslong as it remains without in the contract that binds you to Jagex.

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#48
Bauke
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You could be right about the contract thingy. Though I wonder what would happen if you make legal obligations against the breaching of the contract. You have more rights when you're a paying customer. Oh and it's just all theoretical, mind you. Just interested.

#49
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You could be right about the contract thingy. Though I wonder what would happen if you make legal obligations against the breaching of the contract. You have more rights when you're a paying customer. Oh and it's just all theoretical, mind you. Just interested.


I'm a Law Student. Criminal Law to be exact, so this kind of falls in my Field. See the way it workd is, when you bind a contract, even if you pay (regardless of the ammount) and you break the contract by acting unlawfully (in this case macroing) then you loose your contractual privalage. It does seem a bit unfair that a paying costumer looses money, but then again he was well aware of the punishment related to the crime. You can trust me on this, i wrote a Law Exam 5hours ago, its all still pretty fresh in my head.

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#50
Bauke
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Alright, I'll trust you on the subject :P



But I was wondering what happens if you make legal obligations. Theoretically speaking you could try and prevent the contract from getting revoked by means of law, right? Naturally, nobody will ever do that, but I suppose you have the possibility as a paying customer. Am I right?

#51
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Alright, I'll trust you on the subject :P



But I was wondering what happens if you make legal obligations. Theoretically speaking you could try and prevent the contract from getting revoked by means of law, right? Naturally, nobody will ever do that, but I suppose you have the possibility as a paying customer. Am I right?


It all depends on the seriousness of the infringement. In the case of it only being RS it would never go to court, a Judge would laugh in your face, but lets say it does reach court. What i believe will happen is that a court will order a full refund but they will also put in an order that will prevent you from playing RS ever again. Its like a restraining order, you will be restrained from RS.

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#52
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I see. Thanks for your answer.

#53
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Go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a court case so you can get your $140 back. Please by all means do it.



$5 or $500 makes no difference if you are in the wrong.

#54
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Go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a court case so you can get your $140 back. Please by all means do it.


Obviouslt they wont just go to court for that. They will throw in a few other charges like emotional damage, etc.

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#55
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Go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a court case so you can get your $140 back. Please by all means do it.


Obviouslt they wont just go to court for that. They will throw in a few other charges like emotional damage, etc.




"I fought the law, and the law won".





I think too many people are following their emotions, and relating to the fact that yes, it is a bummer to lose $140 no matter what. It doesn't mean the person is entitled to have it back though.



There are way to many technicalities in Jagex' favour in a case like this worth mentioning. But in any court instance Jagex would win. (Except court-tv which is a joke).

#56
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Go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a court case so you can get your $140 back. Please by all means do it.


Obviouslt they wont just go to court for that. They will throw in a few other charges like emotional damage, etc.




"I fought the law, and the law won".





I think too many people are following their emotions, and relating to the fact that yes, it is a bummer to lose $140 no matter what. It doesn't mean the person is entitled to have it back though.



There are way to many technicalities in Jagex' favour in a case like this worth mentioning. But in any court instance Jagex would win. (Except court-tv which is a joke).


If the player has a good defense he could easily win. I myself can come up with a lot of good reasons why i should win over Jagex. If i was ever to lose my account i'm pretty sure i could get a few hundred thousand out of Jagex if i play my card right.

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#57
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I think what's more important than the theoretical court case, is that Jagex's reputation would be severely damaged if they did not refund those costumers. I probably would be very weary of a game if I knew that the makers were so unjust. That just seems... unethical. They may technically have the right to screw those players over, but it would be very morally wrong to do so, in my opinion.

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.


#58
gorgoroth
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I think what's more important than the theoretical court case, is that Jagex's reputation would be severely damaged if they did not refund those costumers. I probably would be very weary of a game if I knew that the makers were so unjust. That just seems... unethical. They may technically have the right to screw those players over, but it would be very morally wrong to do so, in my opinion.


Wait wait WAIT!. Lemme get this straight. Youre saying that someone who breaks a contract should get his money back because it would be unethicall not to get it back? Oh yeah suree, like breaking contract isn't unethicall. Enough people would stand by jagex and make sure that nothing bad happens if a case like this was ever to arrise. There is nothing unethicall about not refunding. Infact, it isnt really "refunding", its more like taking a donation.



EDIT: Free players also get banned and they are probably the ones who make jaxeg the most money from the adds, wonder why no one has mentioned this. They also pay for the service in some way, if you think about it. Saying a member can ask for a refund is like saying a free player should get all those clicks back that he used on the adds, or he should get some portion of the money earned from those adds.

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#59
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You all are forgetting one thing! Jagex unbanned these accounts because of an error on there part.



Its like I get charge with a crime, claim innocent, proved guilty, repeal, proved innocent, and then start my life again. Even if jagex can prove that these accounts macroed, if they unbanned them, its not right for them to reban them after the customer invested into the account(time or money).



Jagex should give a chance but keep close watch in my opinion(parole)
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#60
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Go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on a court case so you can get your $140 back. Please by all means do it.


Obviouslt they wont just go to court for that. They will throw in a few other charges like emotional damage, etc.




"I fought the law, and the law won".





I think too many people are following their emotions, and relating to the fact that yes, it is a bummer to lose $140 no matter what. It doesn't mean the person is entitled to have it back though.



There are way to many technicalities in Jagex' favour in a case like this worth mentioning. But in any court instance Jagex would win. (Except court-tv which is a joke).


If the player has a good defense he could easily win. I myself can come up with a lot of good reasons why i should win over Jagex. If i was ever to lose my account i'm pretty sure i could get a few hundred thousand out of Jagex if i play my card right.




I'm pretty sure you couldn't. But it would be exciting to see if you could.

Everybody here thinks they are gods gift to humanity. And a seemingly good idea can just as easily get shot down in court by lawyers who are specialized in electronic gaming, and I'm sure jagex has more than one of those on their payroll. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be the first to try and milk a cash cow lol.




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