Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

[Jesus_Status]

[hide=]

I am supposed to keep a month supply of everything.....some people can't afford that. personaly I go through about 3-4 mil worth of pray pots a month alone. I am supposed to keep that much worth of prayer pots as well as everything else..... I don't usually have that much cash lying around.

 

 

 

Then you should join a merchant clan...

 

 

 

btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different.

 

 

 

Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly.

 

 

 

Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Sure I could go ahead and join a merchanting clan and make a ton of money. I can also betray everything I believe in and become a self centred jerk who cares about nothing but himself and ruin the game for everybody else.

[forestfrolic]

Just remember, we still do not know if Jagex did intervene. I applaud them if they did, though.

 

 

 

And really, if you guys haven't personally checked out the thread.. Mod Mat K is hilarious.

 

 

 

 

 

Funny to you is not cool to me, What was done defies GE logic.

 

 

 

Grand Exchange was put in place by Jagex not to be manipulated by a few to upset many.

 

 

 

 

 

t was put into place to stop RWT. It achieved that.

 

 

 

The irony is, it made it much easier for trading to be abused before as you couldn't facelessly buy out tons of one good and cause prices to skyrocket.

 

However Capitalism was deemed inappropriate so I have no issues with people with money, using it to buy an item in hopes to resale it for a profit.

 

 

 

I'm surprised a merchanting clan makes the secret investment public in the clan chat anyway.

 

 

 

Now on a non related economics note, I miss the "Ruined" economy macro prices where everyone could level and profit by alching. But hey thats me

 

 

 

I should be able to put my money into items with the sole intention of being able to sell them later for a profit. After all, If my GP is sitting in my bank, it's doing me no good.

 

 

 

Do any of you guys sell/buy stocks who are complaining?

 

 

 

I do agree. But the difference between you and me going to make a profit off of an item, and a whole clan dumping an item has a different result.

[das]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

[forestfrolic]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

 

 

 

I'm no expert, but the price in the Grand Exchange also plummets when clans merchant thus leaving everybody that wasn't taking part in the action at a big loss.

[das]

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

 

 

 

I'm no expert, but the price in the Grand Exchange also plummets when clans merchant thus leaving everybody that wasn't taking part in the action at a big loss.

 

 

 

 

 

For the uninformed sure, I do a large majority of my buying when an item crashes, raw armor and raw materials especially materials will almost always go up.

[n64jive]

[hide=]

I am supposed to keep a month supply of everything.....some people can't afford that. personaly I go through about 3-4 mil worth of pray pots a month alone. I am supposed to keep that much worth of prayer pots as well as everything else..... I don't usually have that much cash lying around.

 

 

 

Then you should join a merchant clan...

 

 

 

btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different.

 

 

 

Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly.

 

 

 

Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Sure I could go ahead and join a merchanting clan and make a ton of money. I can also betray everything I believe in and become a self centred jerk who cares about nothing but himself and ruin the game for everybody else.

 

 

 

Go read my edit, merchant clans don't ruin the game for everyone else...it's no different then people who pk me while i'm training agility, except for the fact that they get no benefit(except possibly satisfaction), and the merchants make money(or lose money). They're just playing the game. Also, merchant clans could benefit you. Let's say you trained to 99 runecraft on natures, but you never sold them. All of the sudden, these clans cause natures prices to raise, let's say 100%. You, and "EVERYONE ELSE" with natures, just profited from the merchant clans, and you also introduced supply into the market.

 

 

 

I really think your views would change if you took some college level macro-economics.

[das]

yep, took micro and macro and I REALLY love merchanting clans because they do benefit the game to me at least.

[magzar]

Just remember, we still do not know if Jagex did intervene. I applaud them if they did, though.

 

 

 

And really, if you guys haven't personally checked out the thread.. Mod Mat K is hilarious.

 

 

 

 

 

Funny to you is not cool to me, What was done defies GE logic.

 

 

 

Grand Exchange was put in place by Jagex not to be manipulated by a few to upset many.

 

 

 

 

 

t was put into place to stop RWT. It achieved that.

 

 

 

The irony is, it made it much easier for trading to be abused before as you couldn't facelessly buy out tons of one good and cause prices to skyrocket.

 

However Capitalism was deemed inappropriate so I have no issues with people with money, using it to buy an item in hopes to resale it for a profit.

 

 

 

I'm surprised a merchanting clan makes the secret investment public in the clan chat anyway.

 

 

 

Now on a non related economics note, I miss the "Ruined" economy macro prices where everyone could level and profit by alching. But hey thats me

 

 

 

I should be able to put my money into items with the sole intention of being able to sell them later for a profit. After all, If my GP is sitting in my bank, it's doing me no good.

 

 

 

Do any of you guys sell/buy stocks who are complaining?

 

 

 

 

 

Das, what you just described isn't price manipulation, it's investing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying items you suspect a future price rise in in order to make profit.

 

 

 

It becomes wrong when players from into groups with the intention of buying out all of certain items in order to force the prices to rise. That's not playing the markets, it's controlling them. No one, either in the real world, or runescape, should be allowed to control prices of an item for their own gain.

 

 

 

As to what you said about having a free market, That's all well and good, except the price caps are what prevents RWT. If all items were allowed to fluctuate without bounds, RWTer's could use that to manipulate prices and open new avenues for players to buy their game experience instead of earning it.

 

 

 

Anyway, Solo merchants, I have absolutely no problems with. They earn their money by studying price trends and choosing when the best times to buy and sell would be. I actually consider that to be great practice for anyone interested in one day investing in the stock market. On top of that, there is a great deal of risk involved in solo merchanting if you make bad predictions.

 

Manipulation clans however, require no intelligence, no actual work, nor anything else which could resemble earning their money. They blindly buy an item someone tells them to, and then sell it when someone tells them to. The only risk is that your clan leaders will dump early and screw you over.

[whocares]

I say they go back to the original system and eliminate the GE completely.

[Jesus_Status]

[hide=]

I am supposed to keep a month supply of everything.....some people can't afford that. personaly I go through about 3-4 mil worth of pray pots a month alone. I am supposed to keep that much worth of prayer pots as well as everything else..... I don't usually have that much cash lying around.

 

 

 

Then you should join a merchant clan...

 

 

 

btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different.

 

 

 

Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly.

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Sure I could go ahead and join a merchanting clan and make a ton of money. I can also betray everything I believe in and become a self centred jerk who cares about nothing but himself and ruin the game for everybody else.

 

 

 

Go read my edit, merchant clans don't ruin the game for everyone else...it's no different then people who pk me while i'm training agility, except for the fact that they get no benefit(except possibly satisfaction), and the merchants make money(or lose money). They're just playing the game. Also, merchant clans could benefit you. Let's say you trained to 99 runecraft on natures, but you never sold them. All of the sudden, these clans cause natures prices to raise, let's say 100%. You, and "EVERYONE ELSE" with natures, just profited from the merchant clans, and you also introduced supply into the market.

 

 

 

I really think your views would change if you took some college level macro-economics.

 

 

 

I see you point, and actually I cannot wait to take all those types of business courses. But my problem is every once in a while clans will benifeit you. But majority of the time they are hurting those who need those items.

[magzar]

I say they go back to the original system and eliminate the GE completely.

 

 

 

They can't without bringing back RWT. Besides, The old system sucked horribly when you needed an item that wasn't traded extensively. I used to hate standing around in banks trying to buy items i needed. The convenience of the G.E. really bettered the game for a lot of people.

[das]

It becomes wrong when players from into groups with the intention of buying out all of certain items in order to force the prices to rise. That's not playing the markets, it's controlling them

 

which is still...Investing, A player still puts in a good or service in hopes to get out a higher return, The risk of the investment goes down more when you have more capital to "Control" the market.

 

 

 

As to what you said about having a free market, That's all well and good, except the price caps are what prevents RWT

 

 

 

Except some people feel RWT is accomplished still with Junk trading, which basically skewed the prices of worthless items.

 

 

 

In theory though, there are other clans as a major risk factor. It's not like one or two clans just exists, lots of big public ones and some very elite private ones as well.

 

 

 

Most items people "need" can be obtained through other means. You can be self sufficient.

[Jesus_Status]

But alot of times people who need the items can't produce them. So they need to rely on the grand exchange to obtain the product.

[das]

But alot of times people who need the items can't produce them. So they need to rely on the grand exchange to obtain the product.

 

 

 

What items do you need that cant be produced?

[Jesus_Status]

Almost any item you need can be produced, but the thing is not everybody has the level to produce the item. Not to mention to produce the item it would cost even more then if they were to purchase the finished product.

 

 

 

For example, say a few big shots get together and decide they are going to buy out all of the rune armour supplies. Is the level 50 who needs that expected to go and get 99 smithing so that he can produce his own rune armour

[magzar]

It becomes wrong when players from into groups with the intention of buying out all of certain items in order to force the prices to rise. That's not playing the markets, it's controlling them

 

which is still...Investing, A player still puts in a good or service in hopes to get out a higher return, The risk of the investment goes down more when you have more capital to "Control" the market.

 

 

 

As to what you said about having a free market, That's all well and good, except the price caps are what prevents RWT

 

 

 

Except some people feel RWT is accomplished still with Junk trading, which basically skewed the prices of worthless items.

 

 

 

In theory though, there are other clans as a major risk factor. It's not like one or two clans just exists, lots of big public ones and some very elite private ones as well.

 

 

 

Most items people "need" can be obtained through other means. You can be self sufficient.

 

 

 

 

 

An Investment isn't supposed to come with a guaranteed return. A clan buying out an item and forming a monopoly is a practice that Is completely Illegal in the real world. It doesn't take any intelligence or work at all to group together with a bunch of people and start buying out as much of a product as you can so that you can choose your own price for it. these people don't even have to use price trends, all they have to do is buy, hold the item for awhile while the price rises, and then sell.

 

 

 

Junk trading really isn't a viable means of real world trading. If you saw my anti junking thread awhile back you'd see that what junk trading accomplishes isn't a net profit, but a simple liquidation of frozen assets. Either way junk trading still requires effort to gather the materials. (and to be honest if you gather junk you don't already have to "sell for higher" then i laugh at your stupidity because all you just did was sold an item for the same price as you would have without junk, in addition to a [cabbage] load of useless items that you just wasted time procuring)

 

 

 

also das , a couple items you can't produce which could be merchanted:

 

-Seeds

 

-dragonstones

[magzar]

One other thing I just thought of.

 

 

 

It's a fact that there have been statements by Jagex saying that price manipulation is against the rules. From what I understand Tip.it and its staff are supposed to abide by all RS rules. So Das, by saying that you're for price manipulation clans aren't you in essence breaking bot Runescape's and tip.it's rules?

 

 

 

You should be ashamed of yourself, and as a mod no less.

[n00bfiterpk6]

lol reading through that thread is hilarious XD

[das]

Almost any item you need can be produced, but the thing is not everybody has the level to produce the item. Not to mention to produce the item it would cost even more then if they were to purchase the finished product.

 

 

 

For example, say a few big shots get together and decide they are going to buy out all of the rune armour supplies. Is the level 50 who needs that expected to go and get 99 smithing so that he can produce his own rune armour

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, but rune armor is available in stores. You can buy a large majority of it for dirt cheap.

 

Dragon armor, is a Luxury, not a need.

 

 

 

 

 

An Investment isn't supposed to come with a guaranteed return. A clan buying out an item and forming a monopoly is a practice that Is completely Illegal in the real world.

If you get caught, In essence investment firms like the motley fool act as a merchant clan because lots of daily readers take their tips as the bible and buy stock. Some Investments, especially collectibles, do have a guaranteed return.

 

 

 

Seeds - go thieve a master farmer. They got plenty, they dont run out. Unless you want wood trees, but any level player can woodcut for a nest. Kingdom also produces nests

 

dragonstones - Can be killed from firegiants, or harvested through killing monsters from key halves (do randoms give key halves anymore?). Low level monsters do drop key halves, they can't be produced in mass but they are produced by using keys, but do you *need* a glory? Is it a need or a luxury?

 

 

 

It's a fact that there have been statements by Jagex saying that price manipulation is against the rules.

 

 

 

Please show it to me in writing.

 

 

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct

 

 

 

Don't see it on their offhand, do you?

 

 

 

As someone with an economic interest who studies it for a hobby, I have no qualms with them in theory.

 

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of a devils advocate?

 

 

 

If I did merchant, I would probably own a godsword and not of had the same pile of GP for the last...7 months.

 

 

 

But I dont, I can barely force myself to play currently.

[mario_sunny]

According to some forum mods, Mod Mat K changed the thread title from "to mod mat" to "merchanting clans revolt,"

 

 

 

Seems a little immature for a j mod.

[Rsdude099]

Goldmerch cc? Interesting. My friend is a high ranking official in that channel (actually he is the owner, haha). I'll ask the head honcho what he thinks about it.

[magzar]

Almost any item you need can be produced, but the thing is not everybody has the level to produce the item. Not to mention to produce the item it would cost even more then if they were to purchase the finished product.

 

 

 

For example, say a few big shots get together and decide they are going to buy out all of the rune armour supplies. Is the level 50 who needs that expected to go and get 99 smithing so that he can produce his own rune armour

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, but rune armor is available in stores. You can buy a large majority of it for dirt cheap.

 

Dragon armor, is a Luxury, not a need.

 

 

 

 

 

An Investment isn't supposed to come with a guaranteed return. A clan buying out an item and forming a monopoly is a practice that Is completely Illegal in the real world.

If you get caught, In essence investment firms like the motley fool act as a merchant clan because lots of daily readers take their tips as the bible and buy stock. Some Investments, especially collectibles, do have a guaranteed return.

 

 

 

Seeds - go thieve a master farmer. They got plenty, they dont run out. Unless you want wood trees, but any level player can woodcut for a nest. Kingdom also produces nests

 

dragonstones - Can be killed from firegiants, or harvested through killing monsters from key halves (do randoms give key halves anymore?). Low level monsters do drop key halves, they can't be produced in mass but they are produced by using keys, but do you *need* a glory? Is it a need or a luxury?

 

 

 

It's a fact that there have been statements by Jagex saying that price manipulation is against the rules.

 

 

 

Please show it to me in writing.

 

 

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct

 

 

 

Don't see it on their offhand, do you?

 

 

 

As someone with an economic interest who studies it for a hobby, I have no qualms with them in theory.

 

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of a devils advocate?

 

 

 

If I did merchant, I would probably own a godsword and not of had the same pile of GP for the last...7 months.

 

 

 

But I dont, I can barely force myself to play currently.

 

 

 

I don't have anything in writing i'm afraid. i've seen it posted before though so maybe someone can find it.

 

 

 

And yes I have heard of the devils advocate.(which on an almost completely unrelated note there was also a pretty good movie by that name despite Keanu reeves being the star)

 

 

 

Investment firms still aren't the same thing, they give suggestions on what to buy and sell by reading the current market trends, they don't start huge buying and selling waves regardless of how that stock is currently performing in the market.

 

 

 

anyway, it's common knowledge that price manipulation is frowned upon, if not explicitly against the rules.

 

 

 

As far as seeds go, Ok go out and thieve 2k snapdragon seeds for farming plz.

[das]

Snapdragon is a luxury, not a need, you can level with other goods.

 

 

 

Too many people mistake luxury for needs.

 

 

 

 

 

Again : Here is the games rules

 

 

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct

 

 

 

Find anything about price manipulation in it.

 

 

 

 

 

As for RSOF forum posts on the legality of something, look at swiftkit, 2 jmods said no, then other ones had to come out and say "yes it is legal, but we dont endorse it"

 

 

 

I want it in the game rules or the terms of service for me to consider it a cannon rule. Infact, if it was "illegal" wouldn't the RSOF forum mods lock the merchant clan recruitment posts that are easily found?

 

 

 

 

 

It may be frowned upon, but so is pilejumping, and no one gves a dang about that do they?

 

 

 

Heres a merchanting clan:

 

 

 

93-94-582-58811307

 

 

 

Been open since may 12th. Looks like the RSOF forum mods would hide it if it was "illegal"

[magzar]

Snapdragon is a luxury, not a need, you can level with other goods.

 

 

 

Too many people mistake luxury for needs.

 

 

 

 

 

Again : Here is the games rules

 

 

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct

 

 

 

Find anything about price manipulation in it.

 

 

 

 

 

As for RSOF forum posts on the legality of something, look at swiftkit, 2 jmods said no, then other ones had to come out and say "yes it is legal, but we dont endorse it"

 

 

 

I want it in the game rules or the terms of service for me to consider it a cannon rule. Infact, if it was "illegal" wouldn't the RSOF forum mods lock the merchant clan recruitment posts that are easily found?

 

 

 

 

 

It may be frowned upon, but so is pilejumping, and no one gves a dang about that do they?

 

 

 

Heres a merchanting clan:

 

 

 

93-94-582-58811307

 

 

 

Been open since may 12th. Looks like the RSOF forum mods would hide it if it was "illegal"

 

 

 

 

 

OK then, go get 5k rannarr seeds, or 150 yew seeds, or 10k kwuarm seeds, or 5k maple seeds

 

See how long it takes you to gather any of those things on your own.

 

Sure you could farm allotments or hops or whatever, but good luck getting any decent amount of experience from that.

 

The fact is snapdragons are the best xp out of herbs, and also the second best profit at average yield. It's not a luxury, it's a viable and widely used training method. To call it a luxury pretty much says anything above onion or potato seeds or whatever is a luxury for farming.

 

 

 

on another note

 

 

 

Mod Mat K

 

Jagex Mod

 

 

 

 

 

05-Jun-2009 20:21:28

 

The only person who can make a promise like that Bla will be MMG or Andrew. As important as I like to think I am, I can't make Jagex policy up.. yet....

 

 

 

Mat.

 

 

 

That made me chuckle. Climb that ladder Mat!

[forestfrolic]

According to some forum mods, Mod Mat K changed the thread title from "to mod mat" to "merchanting clans revolt,"

 

 

 

Seems a little immature for a j mod.

 

 

 

I agree. But I still think it's funny.