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Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate

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So what if Jagex interviened, its their game, they don't want to see an item which is regularly traded being manipulated beyond what regular players will pay for the item, simple as. They are doing it for the greater # of players.

 

 

 

Price manipulation has always been against the Rs rules, yet these clans manipulating the prices still persist, yes it is because the g.e can be manipulated, but just because you can do something, should you?

 

 

 

good on em if they did drop the price, i want to sit here laughing at all the bandwagon merchants that will lose money.

 

 

 

Amen.


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Gotta get my .02 in

 

 

 

i don't get the hate for merchanting guilds. they give you an opportunity to sell your stuff at ridiculously high prices if you can get in when the time is right. ie: i had about 50 crystal keys hanging around in my bank and sold them at triple their value last week. And I've gotten 30k free crafting exp a day from people who have too many dragonstones. the only people who lose are the bandwagon jumpers who buy too late and sell way too late.

 

 

 

haven't read the entire 15page thread and I'm sure this has been mentioned many times; but these guys are doing nothing wrong. The words 'abuse' 'manipulate' etc. are being thrown around and I don't think they're fair. Merch guilds are playing WELL within the rules and I take no moral issue with what they do. It's alot more legit than stuff that used to go on with merchanting before the G.E.

 

 

 

There has always been what I view to be an irrational hate on for merchants. Whether it's born from jealousy, bad experiences or whatever, I don't know... but it's silly. The whole thing is silly.

 

 

 

 

2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.

 

3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.

 

 

 

 

They are making the item rise in their favor that falls under the defintion of manipulate. They also mention stocks in the examples :roll:

 

 

 

 

1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.

 

2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.

 

 

 

 

The ge wasn't intended to be used like that so it is abused under defintion.

 

 

 

What they do is called price manipulation and that practice is against the rules on the Runescape Official Forums. They arn't merchant clans they are price manipulation clans. We're not throwing in random words it defines their practices and exposes them as who they realy are. They are also not guilds they are clans.

 

 

 

I feel this discussion has turned into price manipulators trying to make up any excuse to justify what they do and if it continues like this I won't bother replying to stuff like this above.

 

 

 

It is proven to hurt more players than it does benifit. Those clan chats are full of liars and scammers who dump early and buyout earlier. Most leaders make millions off their clan members because they dump on them for max when the members dump for less days later.


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Again, no one has officially said that merch clans are not allowed in the game or even that they are doing anything wrong. By officially I mean posting it in the rules or in the game manual.

 

 

 

Recently they wanted to make the game more enjoyable, with prices like they have been it hasn't.

 

 

 

 

 

Is this a joke??? The game was much more enjoyable before the RWT restrictions. Basically you want to play the game in a safe bubble, you find that enjoyable I find it boring. As an example when dragon claws came out it was impossible to buy one unless were lucky to get it as a drop. The market is horrible for new items introduced into the game. I didn't enjoy that I couldn't get a coveted item without trading some other coveted items for it. However this had NOTHING to do with merch clans, but the game mechanisms put in place by jagex. Pre-trade restrictions it would have taken less than a week to buy these by just simply overpaying for them. And don't say that I could have overpaid for them after GE 'cause I tried and no one was selling. A lot of the sellers were everyday players who didn't have a huge cash reserve to buy coveted items like third age or did not have a stockpile of junk to sell with the dclaws or people who refused to sell their item.

 

 

 

Also for the huge number of players complaining about prices, I find that annoying. If merch clans are buying out something you need for skilling then move on to another skill that isn't so expensive at the moment. Smart players would follow the crashes to level and purchase the items crashing.

 

 

 

Also for players crying that the values of their items have fallen, there is really no guaranteed value of an item. Also if the value of their item rises, they never complain clearly.

 

 

 

One way jagex could deal with merchers is to freeze prices, but then again some players will hate this.

 

 

 

I think jagex should STOP catering to spoiled players.

 

 

 

Those who are always jealous of someone who is earning more gp than them. Or those who claim that they are patient solo merchers, but clearly lack the patience or flexibility when it comes to buying items they need for playing the game. If merchers are buying out fletching supplies move on to hunter or something.

 

 

 

Asking jagex to make the game enjoyable by putting in MORE restrictions that will definately hurt everyday players MORE than merchers is short-sighted, selfish and unnecessary.

 

 

 

Everyday players paid a huge price with RWT restrictions, now if more GE trade restrictions or price restrictions will be implemented, or junk trade is elimninated they will lose the few remaining loyal players they had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just wish that players would think it through before asking Jagex to make more changes RESTRICTING gameplay. If you don't like merch clan's don't participate

 

in it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the clan merchant scenarios, they are intentionally restricting the liquidity in the market in order to drive prices up artificially. The prices do not reflect true value, because what is readily available in liquidity is not being accurately portrayed.

 

 

 

The problem is that after the GE all prices f'd up. The blame for current prices lies with the GE, a lot of impatient players dump their goods at the lowest prices just to get a sale. You talk about "true value" but this is difficult to gauge after the GE. Pre-GE the prices were much more stable, now prices fluctuate too much.

 

 

 

Also there are so many more rich players now who after they skill don't are about how much gp they lose and they dump their goods at lowest prices, this has impacted everyday players MORE than merch clans ever will.

 

 

 

 

So a tiny number of less desirable characters quit. Boohoo. Just like when the kiddies quit because they couldn't buy gold from rwt'ers, who cares? Many of us don't want buyout clanners to be playing runescape in the first place.

 

 

 

This is beyond sad, everyone has different game play styles. Merch clans are NOT against the rules (for now.) Honestly if this is such a problem to you, how about you quit? And anyhow this is nothing new, since RS started there's people who looked at other people's acheivements and always said "oh you bought your level 99" or whatever. Now there are people who are judging merch clans and saying "oh you hurt other players to earn your billions"

 

 

 

As another player pointed out merch clans also do HELP players, for instance if they decided to merch herblore pots, many people who refuse to sell theirs at such low prices will now be able to sell their pots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem I see with this whole merch clan / limproots drama is that jagex is artificially manipulating prices. The RS economy is unstable enough that I'm just concerned that if jagex continues to manipulate prices, this will just increase instability.

 

 

 

Also, with godwars and the huge amounts of gp entering the economy, this has caused much more damage to prices than merch clans ever will.

 

 

 

I just find it ironic that people will point to merch clans and scapegoat them for causing all the problems with the economy when the bulk of problems were created by jagex.

 

 

 

Newsflash even without hoarding or solo OR clan merchers the GE won't always work for getting the items you want. What will be your next request? A store with every time always stocked and available at the lowest price possible?

 

 

 

Isn't there some curse about may you get everything you wish for, and then you discover that what you wished for isn't that great?

 

 

 

I just wish people would THINK before knee-jerk reactions. I'm just amused that someone can argue that "evil" clan merchers should be taken down but solo merchers are blameless people who never exploit other players even though they still want to profit from other people's work should be allowed.

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just giving my opinion bud, no need to bust out the rolly eyes and dictionary.com definitions.

 

 

 

still waiting for the rule that says people can't buy and sell items through the grand exchange.

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::'

 

 

 

It is proven to hurt more players than it does benifit. Those clan chats are full of liars and scammers who dump early and buyout earlier. Most leaders make millions off their clan members because they dump on them for max when the members dump for less days later.

 

 

 

It is proven...

 

 

 

 

 

So essentially you are saying that the people who the clan merchers are hurting are their clan members.

 

 

 

How is this a problem then? Unless you are participating in a merchanting clan this is not a problem. And if you are posting on this thread being all anti-merch clans, then why would this be your concern?

 

 

 

So some people in merch clan's get burned by their leaders and lose their gp... life goes on, they learn they stop clan merching.

 

 

 

So some prices on the GE skyrocket due to clan merching, what goes up in price, does come down in price on RS.

 

 

 

Everyday players have learned that if prices are skyrocketing they might as well sell high.

 

 

 

Everyday players have learned that if prices are too high all they have to do is wait a bit and they will crash.

 

 

 

SOO where exactly is the HARM in all of this?

 

 

 

 

 

What I do see are jealous players laughing at other player's misfortunes. Clan merching is allowed, GE merching is ENCOURAGED by Jagex. There are some people saying that Jagex meant SOLO merching, how the hell can they tell that? It's a MMORPG, let's bash people who are playing TOGETHER as clan merchers.

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just giving my opinion bud, no need to bust out the rolly eyes and dictionary.com definitions.

 

 

 

still waiting for the rule that says people can't buy and sell items through the grand exchange.

That... is a brilliant argument! After all, all these clans are doing is buying and selling items. They're not going over the limits set by Jagex, they're just using the GE. They're not lying about the prices as the GE sets prices. They're not scamming or being deceitful, they're just using the GE. If there's anything wrong here, it's with the cumbersome device Jagex refuses to repair, not the players.

If the CORPORAL beast is this hard, imagine how hard a GENERAL or COLONEL beast would be. a corporal is not even an admirable rank in armies that use that ranking system.

 

Yeah, it is a pking minigame, so any arguments anybody makes will probably be biased.

The best way this will end :Everybody just says,"I'm not arguing with you anymore, goodbye."

The worst way this will end: I don't really know, psychological warfare? Worldwide thermonuclear war? Pie eating contest?

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Normal merchanting:

 

One buys a large amount of an item that one believes will rise in value soon, probably due to belief that there will be increased demand.

 

One sells bought items after they have risen sufficiently according to one's interests.

 

 

 

Clan manipulation:

 

Several buy a large amount of an item that several believe will rise in value soon, probably due to the belief that there will be increased demand.

 

Several sell bought items after the havey risen sufficiently according to several's interests.

 

 

 

Demand may come from different sources but the general mechanism is still the same.

 

So really, it is normal merchanting but in a larger volume.

 

So really, if you believe that one is wrong, then both are wrong.


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just giving my opinion bud, no need to bust out the rolly eyes and dictionary.com definitions.

 

 

 

still waiting for the rule that says people can't buy and sell items through the grand exchange.

That... is a brilliant argument! After all, all these clans are doing is buying and selling items. They're not going over the limits set by Jagex, they're just using the GE. They're not lying about the prices as the GE sets prices. They're not scamming or being deceitful, they're just using the GE. If there's anything wrong here, it's with the cumbersome device Jagex refuses to repair, not the players.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a car, i'm driving along the road, somebody steps out in front of me, i carry on driving, run them over and kill them, and carry on driving along the road. I see no definate rule saying i should brake and stop to try and avoid hitting them.

 

 

 

All i'm doing is driving, the person got in the way.

 

 

 

Thats not how the world works, and your idiotic if you think it is.

 

 

 

You've been reading and posting on thsi thread, then post something as idiotic as that, diregarding everything that has been said before.

 

 

 

 

 

We openly admit, the g.e is flawed, but just because it is doesen't mean you should go in there and abuse the flaw.


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I just find it ironic that people will point to merch clans and scapegoat them for causing all the problems with the economy when the bulk of problems were created by jagex.

 

 

 

 

1. Why do we have this rule?

 

We have put a lot of effort into balancing our games to make them as fair and fun as possible. Unintended bugs can spoil the effect of a game, so we obviously want to fix them as quickly as possible. Deliberately taking advantage of a bug can unbalance the game or devalue other players' efforts, therefore it is against the rules.

 

 

 

 

The ge was not intend to be used this way making it a bug or flaw in the game. Exploiting this is against the rules and it could be viewed as bug abuse. Jagex hasn't came out clearly and said whether or not it's against the rules but some rules can be interpreted in a way making it against the rules. You sound like one of those people who said it's Jagex's fault that so many people abused the penguin glitch happened and it was Jagex's fault that people abused the pvp bug. When you sign up for Runescape you agree to the rules and they state bugs happen you have a choice whether or not to use them and risk being banned. It's your fault if you abuse a bug and get banned.

 

 

 

Newsflash even without hoarding or solo OR clan merchers the GE won't always work for getting the items you want. What will be your next request? A store with every time always stocked and available at the lowest price possible?

 

 

 

Isn't there some curse about may you get everything you wish for, and then you discover that what you wished for isn't that great?

 

 

 

I just wish people would THINK before knee-jerk reactions. I'm just amused that someone can argue that "evil" clan merchers should be taken down but solo merchers are blameless people who never exploit other players even though they still want to profit from other people's work should be allowed.

 

 

 

Price manipulators fake demand and force items to rise for their benifit. Solo merchants ride real trends in the market that happen naturally that doesn't harm the economy because it would have gone up regardless.

 

 

 

For example when GWD came out some merchs bought brews because they knew the demand would rise and the item would go up. That is real demand not which is the total oppisite of what price manipulators do.

 

 

 

You seem to be pulling out every excuss you can to justify price manipulation but it is wrong and close to everyone knows that atleast in the bakc of their minds. Please return with a valid reason with proof behind that reason.

 

 

 

::'

 

 

 

It is proven to hurt more players than it does benifit. Those clan chats are full of liars and scammers who dump early and buyout earlier. Most leaders make millions off their clan members because they dump on them for max when the members dump for less days later.

 

 

 

It is proven...

 

 

 

 

 

So essentially you are saying that the people who the clan merchers are hurting are their clan members.

 

 

 

How is this a problem then? Unless you are participating in a merchanting clan this is not a problem. And if you are posting on this thread being all anti-merch clans, then why would this be your concern?

 

 

 

Sorry I care about the future and better good of runescape and it's players? I'm not some self centered person who only cares about what happens to me.

 

 

 

So some people in merch clan's get burned by their leaders and lose their gp... life goes on, they learn they stop clan merching.

 

 

 

So some prices on the GE skyrocket due to clan merching, what goes up in price, does come down in price on RS.

 

 

 

Everyday players have learned that if prices are skyrocketing they might as well sell high.

 

 

 

Everyday players have learned that if prices are too high all they have to do is wait a bit and they will crash.

 

 

 

SOO where exactly is the HARM in all of this?

 

 

 

What I do see are jealous players laughing at other player's misfortunes. Clan merching is allowed, GE merching is ENCOURAGED by Jagex. There are some people saying that Jagex meant SOLO merching, how the hell can they tell that? It's a MMORPG, let's bash people who are playing TOGETHER as clan merchers.

 

 

 

The harm in this is more players miss out on days of skilling than they should because some people decide to manipulate prices for their own personal gain. Manipulating something for your own personal gain used to be the defintion of item scamming back in 2005 FYI.

 

 

 

Jagex encourages merchanting not price manipulation they are two totally different things.

 

 

 

Again as I said above your pulling at straws come back with valid reasons. Also colors arn't needed; using quotes work alot better.

 

 

 

just giving my opinion bud, no need to bust out the rolly eyes and dictionary.com definitions.

 

 

 

still waiting for the rule that says people can't buy and sell items through the grand exchange.

That... is a brilliant argument! After all, all these clans are doing is buying and selling items. They're not going over the limits set by Jagex, they're just using the GE. They're not lying about the prices as the GE sets prices. They're not scamming or being deceitful, they're just using the GE. If there's anything wrong here, it's with the cumbersome device Jagex refuses to repair, not the players.

 

 

 

Exploiting a flaw/bug is against Jagex rules; the rules we all agreed on when we joined. As a matter of fact 159 players were permanently banned for abusing the penguin glitch even though yes it may be Jagex's fault that there was a mistake in coding it is their fault for knowingly and willingly abusing a bug when they said they wouldn't when they signed up.


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Normal merchanting:

 

One buys a large amount of an item that one believes will rise in value soon, probably due to belief that there will be increased demand.

 

One sells bought items after they have risen sufficiently according to one's interests.

 

 

 

Clan manipulation:

 

Several buy a large amount of an item that several believe will rise in value soon, probably due to the belief that there will be increased demand.

 

Several sell bought items after the havey risen sufficiently according to several's interests.

 

 

 

Demand may come from different sources but the general mechanism is still the same.

 

So really, it is normal merchanting but in a larger volume.

 

So really, if you believe that one is wrong, then both are wrong.

 

 

 

You've got that wrong, its this:

 

 

 

Clan manipulation:

 

Several buy a large amount of an item that they all know will rise because they have taken the majority of said item out of the economy

 

Several sell bought items after they have risen sufficiently, causing said item to have days/weeks/months worth of the item pumped into the economy, causing it to crash in price, usually to lower than it was originally.


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ok, so I guess what this boils down to is the bug concept.

 

 

 

Some believe that the g.e. price's ability to fluctuate is a bug and is being exploited and others do not.

 

 

 

I obviously do not and believe that merch clans have done nothing more than buy and sell in larger quantities and cause larger than average fluctuations in prices.

 

 

 

Bottom line: Jagex doesn't like it and are going to put an end to it. It won't be easy for them and I don't think there is a perfect solution because once again, all these clans are doing is buying and selling through the grand exchange.

 

 

 

Just beware of what you wish for. You've gotta give a little to get a little and who knows how things will look when they're done "fixing" the grand exchange.

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ok, so I guess what this boils down to is the bug concept.

 

 

 

Some believe that the g.e. price's ability to fluctuate is a bug and is being exploited and others do not.

 

 

 

I obviously do not and believe that merch clans have done nothing more than buy and sell in larger quantities and cause larger than average fluctuations in prices.

 

 

 

Bottom line: Jagex doesn't like it and are going to put an end to it. It won't be easy for them and I don't think there is a perfect solution because once again, all these clans are doing is buying and selling through the grand exchange.

 

 

 

Just beware of what you wish for. You've gotta give a little to get a little and who knows how things will look when they're done "fixing" the grand exchange.

 

 

 

Look, it's not technically a bug, it's just not what the G.E. was intended for. The caps on how much of an item you can buy per day were put in place to prevent buyouts. After this player joined together to organize buyouts. These buyouts are known as "cornering the market."

 

 

 

Now cornering the market is illegal in real life as it allows people to exploit the fact that they own all of a commodity to charge exorbitant prices, which consumers are forced to pay. In runescape it's the same thing, except that the commodity in question is temporarily removed from circulation completely, not only stagnating trade of that commodity and preventing players from being able to acquire things they need, but also forcing the prices to rise to levels which they never would under normal economic conditions.

 

 

 

You can [bleep] and moan all you want about how "there's no rule against it so it must be ok." To that all I have to say is read the knowledge base. Jagex specifically states that they will intervene if it becomes apparent that price manipulation is occurring. This is concrete proof that it IS against the rules. This isn't some post by a random mod in the forums, or a simple statement in game. This is in the knowledge base, which is the official source of information about the game.

 

 

 

As far as the G.E. being flawed for making this possible, that is absolute [cabbage] as well. There is NO WAY to resolve this without fixing prices. If there were then you would see that fix already in real world stock markets. The fact is in the real world there are laws against practices like price manipulation and anyone caught is fined and receives jail time. The best Jagex can really do is issue bans for those caught manipulating prices and manually change the prices of any items know to be in the midst of manipulation.

 

 

 

The only "flaw" in the G.E. is that it's forced to have price caps and floors in order to prevent real world trading, otherwise it works almost exactly the same as real world stock markets do.


[hide]

Damnit, I tripped over Magzar's half inflated blow-up doll and hurt myself. I wish he wouldn't leave that thing lying around. -.-

[/hide]

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[hide=]

ok, so I guess what this boils down to is the bug concept.

 

 

 

Some believe that the g.e. price's ability to fluctuate is a bug and is being exploited and others do not.

 

 

 

I obviously do not and believe that merch clans have done nothing more than buy and sell in larger quantities and cause larger than average fluctuations in prices.

 

 

 

Bottom line: Jagex doesn't like it and are going to put an end to it. It won't be easy for them and I don't think there is a perfect solution because once again, all these clans are doing is buying and selling through the grand exchange.

 

 

 

Just beware of what you wish for. You've gotta give a little to get a little and who knows how things will look when they're done "fixing" the grand exchange.

 

 

 

Look, it's not technically a bug, it's just not what the G.E. was intended for. The caps on how much of an item you can buy per day were put in place to prevent buyouts. After this player joined together to organize buyouts. These buyouts are known as "cornering the market."

 

 

 

Now cornering the market is illegal in real life as it allows people to exploit the fact that they own all of a commodity to charge exorbitant prices, which consumers are forced to pay. In runescape it's the same thing, except that the commodity in question is temporarily removed from circulation completely, not only stagnating trade of that commodity and preventing players from being able to acquire things they need, but also forcing the prices to rise to levels which they never would under normal economic conditions.

 

 

 

You can [bleep] and moan all you want about how "there's no rule against it so it must be ok." To that all I have to say is read the knowledge base. Jagex specifically states that they will intervene if it becomes apparent that price manipulation is occurring. This is concrete proof that it IS against the rules. This isn't some post by a random mod in the forums, or a simple statement in game. This is in the knowledge base, which is the official source of information about the game.

 

 

 

As far as the G.E. being flawed for making this possible, that is absolute [cabbage] as well. There is NO WAY to resolve this without fixing prices. If there were then you would see that fix already in real world stock markets. The fact is in the real world there are laws against practices like price manipulation and anyone caught is fined and receives jail time. The best Jagex can really do is issue bans for those caught manipulating prices and manually change the prices of any items know to be in the midst of manipulation.

 

 

 

The only "flaw" in the G.E. is that it's forced to have price caps and floors in order to prevent real world trading, otherwise it works almost exactly the same as real world stock markets do.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Brilliantly put.


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My stand on manipulator clans: They are using other players by luring them with false promises of wealth, and that is for every manipulator clan out there. The only ones not enduring negative effects for the clan leader's wealth advancements are the members that are in the area or have a greater amount of wealth (and assuming they are buying out and dumping at sensible times). These clans know what they are doing and are bragging about it publicly. And just because clan manipulation isn't written in the rules doesn't make it not wrong, it's common sense and an unwritten rule. It is just unfair to other players who work honestly for their money.

 

 

 

The clan leaders may mis-ninform others as to when to buy or sell, causing them to lose money while the clan leaders gain money from their loss. If you a part of a merchanting clan, always check the price graphs for those items and decide from there when to sell or buy, don't take a leader's word for it, as it may cost you. Another way is to just not invest that much money into an item or avoid those kinds of clans completely.

 

 

 

From a non-merching perspective

 

 

 

Let's say your way of making money is by fishing, on fishing lobsters is your thing. You are saving up for a gold-trimmed rune set. You're about halfway to your goal of obtaining enough money to buy the set when you notice the price of the lobster has gone down since you started on it. It turns out there is a manipulator clan dumping HUGE (10M+) amounts of lobster at max. Because of this sudden availability of lobster, the demand is satisfied and the price is lowered, but only after the clans have made their profit by driving the price up by buying out massive amounts of what YOU worked HONESTLY for, and you don't even have anywhere near that amount of lobsters for that to barely effect you, because you aren't looking to make millions in a short amount of time by using others to your advantage. How are they using others? They take the product of one's hard work by buying it out, driving the price up and then dumping it! You may think at the start, that you have it good because there is a large demand (at the moment) for your goods. But when they start to go down in price, after the clan has dumped them and they are near impossible to sell, you are against clans using you to advance their wealth, but you haven't realized it till now.

 

 

 

From a buyer perspective

 

You are wanting to buy 1K raw lobsters for 78 cooking but can't get what you need because they are being bought out by larger, richer manipulator clans, which places you at the bottom of the queue for an order. Only when the prices for that item go down, when the clan has reached the dumping portion of the manipulation process, are you satisfied, because you can finally buy what you want and for cheaper than market! On the seller side, he/she will not be satisfied because there is less of a demand for that item because large amounts of that item have been dumped, driving down the price. Combining these perspectives, you can see how these people were used by manipulator clans to further the clans profits while the skillers get the short end of the stick, at any point in time while the process of clan manipulation is going through.

 

 

 

Really, the only way to NOT be affected by clan merching is:

 

 

 

a)having a source of money that isn't recklessly merched by manipulator clans OR

 

B) having a MASSIVE amount of the item that is being merched that you obtained yourself thru skills and NOT money, because you don't lose money if you did not spend money to earn that massive amount of goods.

 

 

 

In essence, there are ultimately 2 kinds of players: self sufficient and ones that support themselves by any mean where money from or to a particular item is involved. The ones that are self sufficient won't complain about price falls because they are self sufficient and have not spent nay money in obtaining their goods. One kind of consumer type (the market involved in the sale of that item) will complain because they won't be able to sell their goods because of lack of demand. They will only be satisfied when Jagex makes an intervetion or beforehand, when the price of an item is rising due to manipulator clans buying it out (if they are "skilling" for MONEY). If the in the process, it causes them to lose money, they will complain.

 

 

 

But on another side completely, if you are looking to BUY an item and it won't sell because they are being bought out in massive amounts by those clans, this, is where you will complain

 

 

 

You can never please all 3 kinds of these people at the same time

 

a)Skillers are impartial (regardless of a price rise/fall for an item they are obtaining raw) because they are self-sufficient

 

b)"Pseudo-skillers" (for lack of better term) that buy raw goods to level their skills up, such as the case with RC'ers, won't be pleased when the prices go up for that item because that means either that they pay more money to get that item and therefore, lose profit OR won't be able to buy the item at all;

 

and C)The "Money skillers", the ones that are a mix of true skillers and "pseudo-skillers", they SKILL for MONEY. They won't be pleased because the item they are obtaining raw is going down in price, thus less of a demand, thus harder to sell, thus less money coming in.

 

 

 

True skillers are impartial, so they are neutral towards the subject.

 

Pseudo skillers' view on clan merchanting is that it is ONLY BAD when the skiller in question cannot get the item they are paying for in question, due to it being bought out by merchant clans in much larger amounts, thus placing them upwards in the sale que. Money skillers view on merchantinf is that it is ONLY BAD when they cannot sell their raw item for money due to it being DUMPED by the merchant clan in question, thus decreasing the demand for the item that the raw skiller has worked for.

 

 

 

No one looks at clan manipulating from the whole picture, only from 1 angle, and each angle is biased because they are doing (or want things) going their way to benefit them and no-one else, but if the process shifts and they are forced to skill in a different way or cannot make money/spend money to continue to level in a skill, they say clan manipulation is unacceptable, but where the involvement of money is geared toward their benefit, they won't complain.

 

 

 

I'll say it right now, there is no system or system update that can defeat clan merchanting as a whole (save the removal of the GE, which will cause riots, surely), and any update to a system in any form will only be geared in favor toward one party (skillers, money-skillers or pseudo-skillers). The majority that say clan manipulation is bad, are in fact, only vouching that because they can't get what they want, and these claims are made from psuedo and money-skillers, which is what, 90% of RS? So from taking that standpoint, clan manipulation does seem unfair and should be made "illegal", but I'll tell you three things:

 

 

 

a)You get what you get

 

b)You definetely /won't complain when things are geared in favor to your party (price rises for money skillers and price falls for pseudo-skillers(

 

c)clan merchanting can't be beaten as a whole, save the removal of the GE and in theory (explained below the paragraph after the next paragraph)

 

 

 

Self sufficient skillers will ridicule the other 2 parties for being upset because they won't take the former's way of efficiency, saying "Don't like it, don't play the game" "try being self-sufficient for a change" "money is the root of all evil/all our problems" "I'm better than you and won't run into these problems because i'm self sufficient" etc.

 

 

 

Let me tell you one thing too, don't try to compare clan manipulation and the only person with 99 smithing forcibly driving up rune prices as the same thing, and offer your opinion as to the solution pertaining to only that perspective, because he/she is the only one that can produce those iterms. If you've played long enough or are a self-sufficient person, you'll know that those 2 don't compare because clan merchanting was almost non-existent back then and that we did not have these kinds of problems at all back in early RS2 and Classic because the GE was not implemented yet.

 

 

 

You can't please everyone. If clan manipulation is getting you this upset, the reason is clear: because of a flawed trading system with the GE. The only way to theoretically stop clan merchanting as a whole is to balance supply and demand, which is impossible because there are too many different classes of players, each fitting into their own respective categories (pseudo skiller, money skiller and true skiller, some are a combo) and thus each have their own needs, which will always unbalance supply and demand because the needs are not equal with each other.

 

 

 

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Look, it's not technically a bug, it's just not what the G.E. was intended for. The caps on how much of an item you can buy per day were put in place to prevent buyouts. After this player joined together to organize buyouts. These buyouts are known as "cornering the market."

 

 

 

Now cornering the market is illegal in real life as it allows people to exploit the fact that they own all of a commodity to charge exorbitant prices, which consumers are forced to pay. In runescape it's the same thing, except that the commodity in question is temporarily removed from circulation completely, not only stagnating trade of that commodity and preventing players from being able to acquire things they need, but also forcing the prices to rise to levels which they never would under normal economic conditions.

 

 

 

You can [bleep] and moan all you want about how "there's no rule against it so it must be ok." To that all I have to say is read the knowledge base. Jagex specifically states that they will intervene if it becomes apparent that price manipulation is occurring. This is concrete proof that it IS against the rules. This isn't some post by a random mod in the forums, or a simple statement in game. This is in the knowledge base, which is the official source of information about the game.

 

 

 

As far as the G.E. being flawed for making this possible, that is absolute [cabbage] as well. There is NO WAY to resolve this without fixing prices. If there were then you would see that fix already in real world stock markets. The fact is in the real world there are laws against practices like price manipulation and anyone caught is fined and receives jail time. The best Jagex can really do is issue bans for those caught manipulating prices and manually change the prices of any items know to be in the midst of manipulation.

 

 

 

The only "flaw" in the G.E. is that it's forced to have price caps and floors in order to prevent real world trading, otherwise it works almost exactly the same as real world stock markets do.

 

 

 

i'm not bleeping or moaning, i am admittedly uninformed on this topic (haven't been interested in this game for a while, hard to catch up on current events and only have experience merchanting before the GE was introduced) and more than anything am looking for a concrete argument that what merchant clans is against the rules and 'bad for the game'. Trying to play devils advocate to get past the 100 posts of 'merch clans r bad and illegal, jagex better fix the grand exchange'. To be honest, I like the argument you made and the issue is getting fuzzier.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but I do not believe that the GE is flawed either. Let's hope they go down the banstick road rather than revamping the GE in some way, because I (like many others, I am sure) like it the way it is.

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I have mixed fellings about this. It's not that I am part of a merching clan, but that I have merched once.

 

 

 

When Jagex said they were going to release Pking again, I bought 2 dark bows hoping for a rise in price. And they did rise, not as much as I though, but enough to justify the risk of me buying them. I sold them 3 days later, and made a total profit of i think 350k?

 

 

 

Now, to buy an item out to make the prices gp up, then to sell the item back, is a little much.

 

 

 

So the best way for me to say this like this...

 

 

 

To merch an item to hope for a rise in it (Like what i did with the dark bows) is ok.

 

 

 

To buy and item so that it prices rises, with a low supply and high demand is taking it a little far.

 

 

 

You can buy a item and Hope the price goes up.

 

 

 

But to control the price is wrong.


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I think you nailed it geekguy.

 

 

 

/thread

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I think you nailed it geekguy.

 

 

 

/thread

 

 

 

He nailed the skiller part pretty much but there isn't only skillers in this game price manipulation effects everyone especially monster hunters and pkers because pots are bought out alot compared to other items.

 

 

 

This thread can't realy be ended until Jagex states whether or not they view it as against the rules or not and then yet there is still discussion to be made about that.


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Geekguy I think you've basically summed up everything perfectly.

 

 

 

Now if only everyone would read your post and then they would understand too.

 

 

 

@Master_Smither: Definitely agree with you there as well.

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I think you nailed it geekguy.

 

 

 

/thread

 

 

 

He nailed the skiller part pretty much but there isn't only skillers in this game price manipulation effects everyone especially monster hunters and pkers because pots are bought out alot compared to other items.

 

 

 

This thread can't realy be ended until Jagex states whether or not they view it as against the rules or not and then yet there is still discussion to be made about that.

 

 

 

Agreed. RuneScape is too diverse in the way it functions in serving players, because skills, goods and money are all connected, so indeed you have a point that there aren't only skillers. I mean, skillers arne't the only ones that need to buy/use goods produced from skills, no matter hwat type of skiller they may be. Price manipulation affects everyone, from "skillers" to PKers who need the PKing goods to help enjoy the thrill of PK'ing (and MvP, Monster vs Player). In a way, PKers and monster hunters can also be considered a kind of skiller because they are using a skill, or leveling a skill in the process of obtaining money or some other good from a monster/player in return for money, other goods or some service.

 

 

 

One final point for me, I also agree with your last one, but I'd like to extend on it. While price manipulation may be unfair in the eyes of many, because so many of our players interact in some way with skillers that produce the goods that are under the effects of price manipulation, whether the interaction is direct or indirect. It may not be a written rule, and it can be debated if it is unwritten rule, or that the absence of this rule implies that price manipulation is OK, but if it gets too far out of hand to benefit only the clan manipulators, regardless of the general view of price manipulation, Jagex should step in to make it so that no one is used the merchant's advantage, or that the effects are much lessened. I am not specifying what Jagex could do to make it "fair" for the majority of RS players that are not self sufficient under the case of price manipulation, because I haven't formed any practical solutions yet. But if someone at Jagex oculd look at my post and get an idea of how to effectively combat price manipulation, that'd be great.

 

 

 

What I'm trying to say is, though, while price manipulation is in a bad limelight, those kinds of people shouldn't have their source taken away from them (i.e. removal of GE, or trading caps). Just very lessened to the point where it is NOT price manipulation, but simply merchanting for a profit, as you can see because there is a diffrence between those two terms. I'd like the way the trading system in the GE works to be fair to everyone, and not beneficially geared to one party of RS so others can complain.

 

 

 

Because I tell you, if the system was more geared towards money skillers (e.g. VERY high prices for raw goods that money skillers could obtain easily due ot their level in that skill), for example, clan manipulation would not be in such a bad light, but'd rather be seen as the solution to combatting the prices for those goods that "money skillers" use as their source of money, because then they could use it to drive down the prices of the raw good that is making the "money skiller" money.

 

 

 

But because this isn't the case this point is kind of moot =p

 

 

 

Another way to look at this though, is thru directly dealing with clan manipulators, such as banning them, as many suggested.. Often, a LOT of these players were HARD working people at one point, but turned to merchanting (solo) after they had earned enough money, and who wouldn't? Merchanting is superior to raw work in several ways and can earn you more money faster. But when the GE was introduced, (solo) merchanting quickly mutated into clan manipulation. I mean, merchanting still exists, but it has never changed form, and it has never died as some claim, witht he release of the GE. Rather, a larger scale form of it has become availble with the release of the GE. And this was made more efficient with the release of Clan Chat beforehand, so members of those clans could communicate and work efficiently. And clan manipulation explains itself, as their is no middle ground between solo merchanting and clan maniplation, because when you get a crowd of merchants working together, you are more able to controla nd manipulate a part of a market. The profits are just split between tou and other members in your clan.


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Look, it's not technically a bug, it's just not what the G.E. was intended for. The caps on how much of an item you can buy per day were put in place to prevent buyouts. After this player joined together to organize buyouts. These buyouts are known as "cornering the market."

 

 

 

Now cornering the market is illegal in real life as it allows people to exploit the fact that they own all of a commodity to charge exorbitant prices, which consumers are forced to pay. In runescape it's the same thing, except that the commodity in question is temporarily removed from circulation completely, not only stagnating trade of that commodity and preventing players from being able to acquire things they need, but also forcing the prices to rise to levels which they never would under normal economic conditions.

 

 

 

You can [bleep] and moan all you want about how "there's no rule against it so it must be ok." To that all I have to say is read the knowledge base. Jagex specifically states that they will intervene if it becomes apparent that price manipulation is occurring. This is concrete proof that it IS against the rules. This isn't some post by a random mod in the forums, or a simple statement in game. This is in the knowledge base, which is the official source of information about the game.

 

 

 

As far as the G.E. being flawed for making this possible, that is absolute [cabbage] as well. There is NO WAY to resolve this without fixing prices. If there were then you would see that fix already in real world stock markets. The fact is in the real world there are laws against practices like price manipulation and anyone caught is fined and receives jail time. The best Jagex can really do is issue bans for those caught manipulating prices and manually change the prices of any items know to be in the midst of manipulation.

 

 

 

The only "flaw" in the G.E. is that it's forced to have price caps and floors in order to prevent real world trading, otherwise it works almost exactly the same as real world stock markets do.

 

 

 

i'm not bleeping or moaning, i am admittedly uninformed on this topic (haven't been interested in this game for a while, hard to catch up on current events and only have experience merchanting before the GE was introduced) and more than anything am looking for a concrete argument that what merchant clans is against the rules and 'bad for the game'. Trying to play devils advocate to get past the 100 posts of 'merch clans r bad and illegal, jagex better fix the grand exchange'. To be honest, I like the argument you made and the issue is getting fuzzier.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but I do not believe that the GE is flawed either. Let's hope they go down the banstick road rather than revamping the GE in some way, because I (like many others, I am sure) like it the way it is.

 

 

 

 

 

No I didn't mean you specifically, just a generalization to those who don't fully understand the concept. I also hope they go the route of banning people instead of making major changes to the game. Obviously simple bannings won't wipe out the problem completely, but if you take out enough of these clan leaders, then the power they help will be significantly decreased, making it much harder for buyouts to even happen.


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a misconception is all solo merchants buy an item and let it rise naturaly, im a solo merch and i merch dropping items alot, i just flip items and its sipmle, doesnt hurt economy just flips

 

 

 

impatient people get an item, want to sell it instant so i buy it low, impatient people want one asap so buy it high from me, i make a few k profit by letting them get theyre items faster


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Grandmerch is banned and cc locked. (Doesn't exist)

 

Grandmerch3r is still active.


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Grandmerch is banned and cc locked. (Doesn't exist)

 

Grandmerch3r is still active.

 

 

 

I assume you mean goldmerch?


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