Holocaust museum shooting and hate crimes

[1_man_army]

[hide=]

What enrages me most is the part where the family member says they disowned him because they thought he was mentally ill.

 

If we would just euthanize the mentally ill like I suggest, we wouldn't have these kinds of problems. I don't mean offense towards disabled people, I really don't. I just feel that it's the right thing to do.

 

 

 

Sometimes, with the proper treatment, the mentally ill can function as "normal" people in society.

 

 

 

You also have to think, there are many... varieties... of mental illness, some more severe than others. You can't lump them all together in one group.

[/hide]

 

To add, if we euthanized every mentally ill person we would be killing more people then we would be saving from crimes.

 

 

 

...and committing a morally reprehensible crime but lets no go over this whole issue again.

[RichieMcD]

What enrages me most is the part where the family member says they disowned him because they thought he was mentally ill.

 

If we would just euthanize the mentally ill like I suggest, we wouldn't have these kinds of problems. I don't mean offense towards disabled people, I really don't. I just feel that it's the right thing to do.

 

 

 

Don't start this [cabbage] again, it went on for 3 pages last time and only ended up in a lot of pissed off posts. I view you as mentally ill for having such views, yet I still wouldn't wish for you to be euthanized.

[warren211]

What enrages me most is the part where the family member says they disowned him because they thought he was mentally ill.

 

If we would just euthanize the mentally ill like I suggest, we wouldn't have these kinds of problems. I don't mean offense towards disabled people, I really don't. I just feel that it's the right thing to do.

 

 

 

Haven't you been told before in another thread the irony of a person like you saying that? Especially in a thread here on the Holocaust where Jews and other people who were thought of as the burden to society were mass murdered, then you turn around and say that we should do the exact same to the mentally ill? You got upset in the other thread when someone compared you to a Nazi. But then you hold a core value to the Nazis of removing those who are polluting the gene pool. And I thought we explained last time that most mental illnesses are due to mutations and are not always inherited disorders. Diseases like Down syndrome are mistakes during cell division of sex cells and an offspring can be born with down syndrome from any parent regardless of how healthy their genetic history is. I'm not calling you a Nazi, but how can you justify such a view that is as disgusting and as flawed as the views of Nazi's that we now recognize as wrong today?

[Lenin64]

Diseases like Down syndrome are mistakes during cell division of sex cells and an offspring can be born with down syndrome from any parent regardless of how healthy their genetic history is.

 

Doesn't mean we should keep 'em.

[Robert_de_Sable]

Doesn't mean we should keep 'em.

 

QFT.

 

 

 

Haven't you been told before in another thread the irony of a person like you saying that? Especially in a thread here on the Holocaust where Jews and other people who were thought of as the burden to society were mass murdered, then you turn around and say that we should do the exact same to the mentally ill? You got upset in the other thread when someone compared you to a Nazi. But then you hold a core value to the Nazis of removing those who are polluting the gene pool. And I thought we explained last time that most mental illnesses are due to mutations and are not always inherited disorders. Diseases like Down syndrome are mistakes during cell division of sex cells and an offspring can be born with down syndrome from any parent regardless of how healthy their genetic history is. I'm not calling you a Nazi, but how can you justify such a view that is as disgusting and as flawed as the views of Nazi's that we now recognize as wrong today?

 

The difference is that Jews actually could-- and did-- fill an important role in society. I'm not saying we should kill them because I dislike mentally ill people. I'm saying it because they can't fill a role in society-- certainly not an important one-- and are therefore less useful. NOT useless.

 

 

 

...and committing a morally reprehensible crime but lets no go over this whole issue again.

 

What's morally reprehensible is allowing a less useful entity use the resources that could just as easily be used to help people who contribute.

 

 

 

To add, if we euthanized every mentally ill person we would be killing more people then we would be saving from crimes.

 

The goal isn't to stop them from committing crimes.

 

 

 

Sometimes, with the proper treatment, the mentally ill can function as "normal" people in society.

 

 

 

You also have to think, there are many... varieties... of mental illness, some more severe than others. You can't lump them all together in one group.

 

And those who can function as normal people can be left to function like normal people as they wish. My goal isn't to kill anyone with the slightest flaw in the hopes of creating some sort of superior race-- get that idea out of your heads. If it is possible for someone to function just like everyone else, why not let them? And I'm well aware of these varieties. I speak only of euthanizing the severely debilitating ones.

 

 

 

I know you're serious, but if anyone else said this we would hear cries of people either trolling or being sarcastic. Your views sure are different from the majority of people, and I respect that, but killing people because they are different? Err... Holocaust II?

 

I do appreciate the fact that you respect that. You're more mature than a lot of people here. I'm not suggesting we should kill them just because they're different, I'm saying we should kill them because they use resources that someone else could benefit from.

 

 

 

I think I see where you're coming from. Are you saying that it's a pain to themselves and a cost to society ? That makes sense in a very methodical way. At least you say that they should die peacefully.

 

Not only to themselves, but to the people around them. I remember the first time I met my great-aunt. She had Cerebral Palsy, and the look on my own mother's face every time she saw her was one of stricken pain and anguish. Wouldn't it be easier to discover a disability while the baby is in the womb and abort the pregnancy? FOr everyone. I'm not just an [wagon]. I actually really appreciate the way you were able to interpret that, Adrenal. Thank you.

[1_man_army]

...utter crap...

 

 

 

Look I'm not going to get baited into this argument (again). You know my opinion on it (that you're quite frankly a nutjob and/or a moron) and I won't take the thread off-topic for 2 or 3 pages again.

[RichieMcD]

 

I think I see where you're coming from. Are you saying that it's a pain to themselves and a cost to society ? That makes sense in a very methodical way. At least you say that they should die peacefully.

 

Not only to themselves, but to the people around them. I remember the first time I met my great-aunt. She had Cerebral Palsy, and the look on my own mother's face every time she saw her was one of stricken pain and anguish. Wouldn't it be easier to discover a disability while the baby is in the womb and abort the pregnancy? FOr everyone. I'm not just an [wagon]. I actually really appreciate the way you were able to interpret that, Adrenal. Thank you.

 

 

 

Robert, for the first time since I've seen you here, I do actually agree with you, no matter how much I generally disagree with you. I have two completely seperate views on it though, if two parents consent to their unborn mentally ill child being aborted due to it being confirmed that they will be born with a life ruining mental handicap then yes, I do agree with your thought of euthanasia as it leaves quite a lot of people free from a life of hardship.

 

 

 

The view though, that all mentally ill people, living or unborn, should be euthanized I find sickening. What's your view though? Explaining it in full detail will probably do your general "status" on here some good.

[Alg]

 

...and committing a morally reprehensible crime but lets no go over this whole issue again.

 

What's morally reprehensible is allowing a less useful entity use the resources that could just as easily be used to help people who contribute.

 

 

Perhaps a better idea then would be to keep resources from being unevenly distributed anyway. There's a gap between rich and poor, for one, and a wealthy man who contributes little to nothing compared to the resources he uses is, if I'm not wrong, far less useful than a poorer but harder working person who can't get said resources.

[Robert_de_Sable]

I won't even get into the Communism argument.

 

Mostly because I know nothing about economics, but... :P

 

 

 

Look I'm not going to get baited into this argument (again). You know my opinion on it (that you're quite frankly a nutjob and/or a moron) and I won't take the thread off-topic for 2 or 3 pages again.

 

You think so highly of yourself, don't you? I'm not trying to draw anyone into this argument, let alone you. I have absolutely no interest in your opinions or your immature insults. While everyone else responds with maturity and grace, you simply edit my quotes and call me a moron. Please just stop making a fool of yourself, or reply with some sort of substantial argument.

 

 

 

What's your view though? Explaining it in full detail will probably do your general "status" on here some good.

 

Particularly with hereditary diseases, stopping these people from reproducing (I recognize this doesn't require euthanization, but it's better to put them out of their misery) will eventually eliminate the disease. It's 1:35 AM here and I'm not particularly in the mood to outline my full argument now. You seem nice, though, so PM me if you want the rest later.

[spacheco]

I won't even get into the Communism argument.

 

Mostly because I know nothing about economics, but... :P

 

 

 

Look I'm not going to get baited into this argument (again). You know my opinion on it (that you're quite frankly a nutjob and/or a moron) and I won't take the thread off-topic for 2 or 3 pages again.

 

You think so highly of yourself, don't you? I'm not trying to draw anyone into this argument, let alone you. I have absolutely no interest in your opinions or your immature insults. While everyone else responds with maturity and grace, you simply edit my quotes and call me a moron. Please just stop making a fool of yourself, or reply with some sort of substantial argument.

 

 

 

What's your view though? Explaining it in full detail will probably do your general "status" on here some good.

 

Particularly with hereditary diseases, stopping these people from reproducing (I recognize this doesn't require euthanization, but it's better to put them out of their misery) will eventually eliminate the disease. It's 1:35 AM here and I'm not particularly in the mood to outline my full argument now. You seem nice, though, so PM me if you want the rest later.

 

 

 

 

 

why has robert been banned yet?

[Guest User]

This guy was obviously a nutjob, far beyond mentally ill. I'm sure he functioned as a normal, exvcluding his racist views, individual. It's sad that the security guard shot was only opening a door for an elderly man who he assumed needed help. For whatever time this man has left on Earth let him suffer. I respect his right to hate, but not murder.

[Robert_de_Sable]

I won't even get into the Communism argument.

 

Mostly because I know nothing about economics, but... :P

 

 

 

Look I'm not going to get baited into this argument (again). You know my opinion on it (that you're quite frankly a nutjob and/or a moron) and I won't take the thread off-topic for 2 or 3 pages again.

 

You think so highly of yourself, don't you? I'm not trying to draw anyone into this argument, let alone you. I have absolutely no interest in your opinions or your immature insults. While everyone else responds with maturity and grace, you simply edit my quotes and call me a moron. Please just stop making a fool of yourself, or reply with some sort of substantial argument.

 

 

 

What's your view though? Explaining it in full detail will probably do your general "status" on here some good.

 

Particularly with hereditary diseases, stopping these people from reproducing (I recognize this doesn't require euthanization, but it's better to put them out of their misery) will eventually eliminate the disease. It's 1:35 AM here and I'm not particularly in the mood to outline my full argument now. You seem nice, though, so PM me if you want the rest later.

 

 

 

 

 

why has robert been banned yet?

 

Because you can't ban people for making posts that you disagree with.

[Gruunaz]

I've grown up with people who have mental disabilities all my life, and I agree, it would be better to abort or euthanize those with seriously debilitating disabilities. Not Autism or ADD, but Down's Syndrome and Anecephaly.

[brunokiller]

Sometimes the people that post here disgust me.

[Robert_de_Sable]

Sometimes the people that post here disgust me.

 

And the same goes for me...

 

 

 

Not Autism or ADD, but Down's Syndrome and Anecephaly.

 

I have ADD. This is why I mean severely debilitating as you put it. I function just fine in my job, un-medicated.

 

Autism you can't really generalize like that, but you're right about the other two.

[1_man_army]

I won't even get into the Communism argument.

 

Mostly because I know nothing about economics, but... :P

 

 

 

Look I'm not going to get baited into this argument (again). You know my opinion on it (that you're quite frankly a nutjob and/or a moron) and I won't take the thread off-topic for 2 or 3 pages again.

 

You think so highly of yourself, don't you? I'm not trying to draw anyone into this argument, let alone you. I have absolutely no interest in your opinions or your immature insults. While everyone else responds with maturity and grace, you simply edit my quotes and call me a moron. Please just stop making a fool of yourself, or reply with some sort of substantial argument.

 

 

 

 

As I've said before, if you make such outrageous statements, people (in this case me) will be offended and when I'm offended I get irritated which is why I insulted you. You are baiting this argument because the mentally ill has very little to do with this topic and you've used it to spout your views on the mentally ill on yet another topic. For the record, I'm not going to have the debate with you on the mentally ill as I've been through it before, I edited your post to save space and I don't have a high opinion of myself, I just have a low opinion of your view on the mentally ill.

[stan18]

To be fair, holocaust non believers don't believe that it didn't happen but believe it was exagerated.

 

 

 

I just wanna make sure people understand that.

 

 

 

The manifestation of Holocaust denial is really one of the worst acts of racism in human society. You are completely right, holocaust deniers believe it was exaggerated. And thats why its so wrong.

 

 

 

Despite overwhelming evidence (from the museum to the wikipedia article), those who follow holocaust denial still claim what they believe is true, which means they've never actually been faced with evidence that counters holocaust denial. That leaves two possibilities: 1) they were told the holocaust was exaggerated and never confirmed the evidence that concludes why the holocaust was denied, or 2) they were taught that the holocaust was exaggerated.

 

 

 

(2) means that the environment in which a child was brought up supported the denial of the holocaust. In other words, they were grown up with hate. (1) means they learned the (modern) history of the holocaust, were presented evidence that denied it, and they accepted it. I will make the assumption that when someone provides evidence that denies something significantly large that you've accepted as true(2 + 2 actually equals 5, for example), you will provide some effort to make sure the allegation is true. So being presented with information that completely belittles/denies the holocaust should spark a, "wait, that can't be right" flame in your head, and conduct some research. If it doesn't, then that meant you were willing to concede to the allegation. In other words, it agreed with something you though; it sparked a, "i knew it!" flame in your head, and you agree with it, and provide no further research, because you really knew that those dirty jews were trying to trick society, and this evidence further confirms it.

 

 

 

Holocaust denial is just a credible looking vehicle to spout and spread antisemitism. To most people, reading this would immediately raise a flag on credibility, because you feel somethings wrong because it contradicts what you learned. For someone who hates jews but could never provide evidence to their trickery, the evidence provided by holocaust denial gives the hateful a righteous confirmation of their hate.

 

 

 

"further proof that anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial have not passed from the world."

 

 

 

That is just a stupid comment to make, as long as humans are not all the same, there will always be hatred towards those who are different.

 

 

 

And why is that? Theres always going to be fear of different. I don't agree with hatred, though.

 

 

 

[hide=On euthanasia]I do agree with Robert. Why do we remove tumors? Because they waste bodily resources and get worse over time. If we had the possibility of, say, scanning a fetus and detecting genes that code for a weak or nonexistent conscience (aka serial killers), would you approve of aborting it? Why? Because if we don't, we already know that theres no way to fix them (them being the genes that make him a serial killer) if the fetus is allowed to mature into an adult - it would be a tumor on society. If we could scan a fetus for mutations or code that cause, say, downs syndrome, would you abort it? Why? Because if we don't, we already know theres no way to fix it (the genes that mutated, or the bad genes), and if it is allowed to mature into an adult, the person with downs syndrome, all its life, would only take away from society (and even those who raise him/her).

 

 

 

What if you scanned a fetus and found it had the genes for huntingtons (dominant gene)? The person would die in their early/mid years and know their doom was inevitable. Would you rather abort it, and let the mother grow another child without the dominant allele (its a 50/50 chance per child to get the disease)? Why?

 

 

 

What if we scanned one fetus and found it would not grow arms and legs, or be able to hear or see? Would you let it develop as just a vegetable? Why? If we had the technology that would allow this person to have prosthetic limbs, eyes and hearing replacements, would you let the fetus live? Why?

 

 

 

The first two examples have complications we cannot fix, and the latter two do. Except, in now-a-days society, we can't scan; we only find out after it has been born. Why can't we abort them then, when we know they are going to be a plague to society?[/hide]

[Robert_de_Sable]

Very well-said. I'm going to stop distracting from the topic before this gets locked and start a new one.

[vivimancer]

Personally the idea of a 89 year old racist going into a hollahoax museum and shooting the African-American guard is pretty funny (yes I realise that the taking of an life is both a sin and a crime)

 

 

 

But, maybe calling yourself God's chosen people is putting people on a bit of a pedestal and you should be less surprised (by now) when certain groups resent this superior attitude or try to knock you off that pedestal.

 

 

 

To stan18: Yes what happened in the 40's was terrible but there is still evidence to say that the numbers were exaggerated, for political leverage and I think you'll find the continued genocide of the Palestinian people more racist than trying to have an honest debate about historical events.

[1_man_army]

Personally the idea of a 89 year old racist going into a hollahoax museum and shooting the African-American guard is pretty funny (yes I realise that the taking of an life is both a sin and a crime)

 

 

 

But, maybe calling yourself God's chosen people is putting people on a bit of a pedestal and you should be less surprised (by now) when certain groups resent this superior attitude or try to knock you off that pedestal.

 

 

 

To stan18: Yes what happened in the 40's was terrible but there is still evidence to say that the numbers were exaggerated, for political leverage and I think you'll find the continued genocide of the Palestinian people more racist than trying to have an honest debate about historical events.

 

 

 

There was really no need for that. Secondly, many religions think they are the 'chosen ones' - it isn't just Judaism, Muslims and Christians both consider their religions to be the only true religion and that followers of other faiths will suffer for not believing.

 

 

 

I do have sympathy for the Palestinians and I've stated it numerous times but you don't need to be anti-semitic to have empathy for their plight. People with extreme views like yours (on both sides of the debate) don't help to solve the problem of Israel & Palestine. Your hate breeds hate.

[Powman3]

[hide=]

Personally the idea of a 89 year old racist going into a hollahoax museum and shooting the African-American guard is pretty funny (yes I realise that the taking of an life is both a sin and a crime)

 

 

 

But, maybe calling yourself God's chosen people is putting people on a bit of a pedestal and you should be less surprised (by now) when certain groups resent this superior attitude or try to knock you off that pedestal.

 

 

 

To stan18: Yes what happened in the 40's was terrible but there is still evidence to say that the numbers were exaggerated, for political leverage and I think you'll find the continued genocide of the Palestinian people more racist than trying to have an honest debate about historical events.

[/hide]

 

 

 

You are obviously a troll.

 

 

 

To robert: If you're not trying to bait anyone in, why do you keep posting? To say Hitler's views were wrong but then you saying that we should put down the disabled is just hypocritical. You really should stop before you find yourself not wanted here (which is already beginning to happen) or getting banned, because this is really pathetic.

[vivimancer]

 

There was really no need for that. Secondly, many religions think they are the 'chosen ones' - it isn't just Judaism, Muslims and Christians both consider their religions to be the only true religion and that followers of other faiths will suffer for not believing.

 

 

 

I do have sympathy for the Palestinians and I've stated it numerous times but you don't need to be anti-semitic to have empathy for their plight. People with extreme views like yours (on both sides of the debate) don't help to solve the problem of Israel & Palestine. Your hate breeds hate.

 

 

 

To become a 'chosen' Christian one simply becomes baptised, Muslims openly accept all three Abrahamic religions as as they are considered People of the book, ahl al-kitab.

 

In contrast however according to Rabbi Jeffrey Wolfson Goldwasser, a jewish person is defined through the maternal line ...

 

"according to traditional Jewish law, if 1) your grandmother's conversion was conducted under a valid rabbinic authority, and 2) your mother was born after your grandmother's conversion." you are legally a jew.

 

 

 

And combined with Binyamin Netanyahu's bald statement of fact that (the territory formerly known as Palestine) is and always will be a Jewish state, and that All jews have the "right of return"epitomises this very problem, thinly disguised Israeli nationalism combined with fundamentalist Christians honour-bound to obey Genesis 12:3, creates an unholy alliance that effectively blanks any dissenting opinion in the west, via the legal system and mass media.

 

 

 

Anything that challenges the perceived order of things is marginalised as either anti-semetic or an extreme view.

 

As an academic exercise; if you had a tank parked in your garden, would you blame the tank for crushing your flowers, or the army of the nation that ordered it there? Turning the Gaza strip into the Warsaw ghetto is not going to make Isreal safer but reinforce the negative stereotyping, that you feel there is no need for.

 

I totally agree with you (and Yoda) that hate breeds hate, and the bullied becoming the bullies.

 

 

 

Constructively I think that the dubiously titled 'two state' solution, is the best way forward; and more directly simply by paying back Palestinian Tax money and returning some the hundreds of prisoners held by Isreal.

 

 

 

To Powman3: not a troll

[Albel]

I was so sad to see this. To think that someone can kill someone eles, just because of race...just baffels me to no end.

 

 

 

I live in souther West Virginia, and there is alot of racism where I live. At school is where its really really bad. And, I'm actually sick to read this story.

 

 

 

Truely horrible...

[mmmcannibalism]

I was so sad to see this. To think that someone can kill someone eles, just because of race...just baffels me to no end.

 

 

 

I live in souther West Virginia, and there is alot of racism where I live. At school is where its really really bad. And, I'm actually sick to read this story.

 

 

 

Truely horrible...

 

whats worse is that its just as bad in northern west virginia, the part of the state that was the most union friendly.

[Robert_de_Sable]

I was so sad to see this. To think that someone can kill someone eles, just because of race...just baffels me to no end.

 

 

 

I live in souther West Virginia, and there is alot of racism where I live. At school is where its really really bad. And, I'm actually sick to read this story.

 

 

 

Truely horrible...

 

If your native language is English then...

 

#-o