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Chasing Perfection: Jagex's Quest for a PvP Utopia


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#41
demby123
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My personal thoughts are that you can only recieve as much as the opponent is risking.


If you get the same,RWT. If less,thats less reward for an already high risk.



my response


Also that the person you kill cannot of been on your friends list in the past 48 hours. (This may end DM's, but as you have stated, not everyone can be satisfied.)


Clan chats could be a loophole.



my response
and mine


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#42
demby123
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Fine, whatever. Point is, the amount of people regularly PVPing is a slim majority compared to the amount of regular players, and they're damn PVPing is screwing up stuff for the rest of us.



So just scratch the whole thing, have RS carve out a niche as a non-pvp game, and let the PVPers move on to WoW or Guild Wars.

The main thing thing that sets runescape apart,if im not mistaken, is the ability to play the game how you want to, and pvping is just another one of the major activity people like to do in this game.And more people pvp than you think. ;)
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#43
Me_Hate_Libs
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Because you can clearly play it how you want it now right? Except for the 1200 rules they now have for it.



And as far as regular PVPers go, no I don't think there is that many. Only 26king made it popular. It was otherwise, low.
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#44
newge4
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When PvP worlds first came out, I thought it was a great idea. Then came posts about people getting DFHs from people in full rune. Then came the "PvP trick", and suddenly tons of people are making ridiculous amounts of money. In my opinion, this is where Jagex should have stopped. They should have focused on fixing these issues (and any others that came up) with PvP worlds and not on coming up with other PvP options to appease the masses.
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#45
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When PvP worlds first came out, I thought it was a great idea. Then came posts about people getting DFHs from people in full rune. Then came the "PvP trick", and suddenly tons of people are making ridiculous amounts of money. In my opinion, this is where Jagex should have stopped. They should have focused on fixing these issues (and any others that came up) with PvP worlds and not on coming up with other PvP options to appease the masses.




If they wanted to seriously solve it, your drops values are based on how many QP you have. If you're a pure, you can still PVP, you just don't make any cash.



Problem solved.
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#46
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When PvP worlds first came out, I thought it was a great idea. Then came posts about people getting DFHs from people in full rune. Then came the "PvP trick", and suddenly tons of people are making ridiculous amounts of money. In my opinion, this is where Jagex should have stopped. They should have focused on fixing these issues (and any others that came up) with PvP worlds and not on coming up with other PvP options to appease the masses.




If they wanted to seriously solve it, your drops values are based on how many QP you have. If you're a pure, you can still PVP, you just don't make any cash.



Problem solved.




I have max QP and I have been tricking for a little bit now, so I should deserve to still make millions while lower players make nothing?

#47
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Actually, quest points have some to do with levels, but not as much as you make it look.



It's simple. Someone with max qp isn't likely to be rwt. And since the qp would determine what loot you get, it would simplify the whole thing.



Just make loot brackets that you can receive based on your amount of QP. And your loot can never be more than the total amount of what the person you killed had on them.



So you can't make millions. You know, they could also add a 24 loot cap.
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#48
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Actually, quest points have some to do with levels, but not as much as you make it look.



It's simple. Someone with max qp isn't likely to be rwt. And since the qp would determine what loot you get, it would simplify the whole thing.



Just make loot brackets that you can receive based on your amount of QP. And your loot can never be more than the total amount of what the person you killed had on them.



So you can't make millions. You know, they could also add a 24 loot cap.


Its been said by Jmods on the "no trade limit for 200+qp"thread on rsof that RWTers would still quest enough to get multiple quest capers and still sell gold succesfully.Using qp can be abused just like any other method they'll come up with.
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#49
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Then scale back how much you can make off it.



No screw it. Do what I said earlier.



Junk PVP! :evil:
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#50
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While I do agree with your post, I must disagree with the whole "fighting RWT instead of pleasing players" mindset. They can kill RWT in their own game and keep players pacified, but they haven't stumbled across the magic formula, either. It's true when you said that PvP was simple - kill or be killed - and these new rules and all that stuff totally messed that up. But, there's a way to recover from it - you don't have to nuke everything because it's "failed", because it really hasn't yet. Also, I don't quite understand why everyone's so anti-'anti-RWT' anyways - getting rid of that is a good thing, and the systems needed to replace what you players enjoyed from it (namely getting what they were wearing) just need to be toned down to about 10% of what they are now.




When I said to completely thrash everything in the works, I did not mean to destroy it and never use it again. Far from it. I simply mean that Jagex needs to clear its mind and take a really good look. Jagex needs to understand that the simplest and most elegant solution is. Once they understand that, then they can add whatever they need to (but I stress NEED, the bare minimum is all that is necessary), and many of these may in fact be concepts they've used in the past two years (EP for example, has a very viable future, but not in its current form).



It's true that it hasn't 100% failed yet, but it's on its way. Less and less people are happy with all of these PvP updates. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Jagex dug its own grave when they strayed from their real goal. The only way they can solve this problem is by going back to that bare basic goal and working from that, and only that.




Well I might have misunderstood you, and in this vein I do agree. The only problem is that simplicity leads to predictability, which leads to RWT. Brianite pointed out here that if you keep a system in which you consistently get a percentage of their drops, RWT can resurface again, totally nullifying years of updates. Keeping things simple isn't a viable option, but there are ways to retool the system as it stands.



1) Brawlers become tradable, thus giving both skillers and PvPers something valuable

2) PvP armors dropped at the same rate as icons/statuettes, and icons/statuettes reduced to 5-10% of their current value

3) Every aspect used to calculate drops is hidden instead of made public, as to discourage 26King or any other kind of system manipulation



Again, these are ideas, but I honestly think that the system cannot be taken back to a "simpler" time. I'll blame RWT for wrecking that. And as far as people being less and less satisfied with these updates, you're damn right I'm getting dissatisfied - I'm no PKer, but it seems like the overspoken minority is getting more or less 2 years of attention, whereas high levels have been demanding more content as well...Even I know I'll never take part in PKing (since I can't be bothered to anymore with my pures, and I don't want to do it in clans anymore), not in the next ten years, and they can't seem to get enough updates...



They should just end the whole amg we must stop rwt attitude tbh




Why? That's a good attitude to have - you sure as hell don't see other MMOs taking the same kind of stand that Jagex has about it.





They around 10% of people pvp, right? Yet a good third of the topics now are about pvp.


Source? :geek:




I don't remember, but it's been widely accepted that the average number of players who regularly PVP is around 10%.

Widely accepted by the players that dont pvp? ;) TBH I find that non pvpers and pvpers tend to be on other sides of the world if you catch my drift.




This seems like an accurate number. If you recall the number of players that quit over the RWT updates, which was about 6% of the total RS population, then compare it with the rest of the RS population...there's also this poll The Habit of a Lifetime that describes that out of all voting participants, more of them would rather skill than PK.



[EDIT]



Then scale back how much you can make off it.



No screw it. Do what I said earlier.



Junk PVP! :evil:




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#51
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Actually, quest points have some to do with levels, but not as much as you make it look.



It's simple. Someone with max qp isn't likely to be rwt. And since the qp would determine what loot you get, it would simplify the whole thing.



Just make loot brackets that you can receive based on your amount of QP. And your loot can never be more than the total amount of what the person you killed had on them.



So you can't make millions. You know, they could also add a 24 loot cap.




This is exactly what we want to avoid. This is exactly what has landed us in this hole in the first place.



When Jagex ended the old wilderness, RWT was gone. Now their job is to make a replace that is as much like the old wild as possible. Their goal is to rebuild, not to reinforce. Rebuild PvP, not reinforce anti-RWT. We don't need any RWT rules. We don't need restrictions on loot based on QP to "stop" RWT. At this point, you just need to keep it simple. Trying to completely stamp out RWT will end you, well, where we are now.



RWT is one of the inevitables you cannot completely stop. But we've burnt down so much of it, we don't need to work on it anymore. So as long as the new system doesn't INVITE RWT, we can leave this topic alone. No need to restrict it even further, and by doing so, make the system more and more complex.



Simplicity and mirroring is the key. Mirror the old wild as best you can, and keep it as simple as you can.



For example: Keep the auto-skull system, but remove everything else and make everything how it was pre-RWT updates. Now, when someone dies, they lose their most valuable item automatically, and you get whatever is left. In addition, if you are not risking a certain amount (not including your most valuable item), you can only attack other people who risk under that amount. There, 2 simple rules.



So if someone had an AGS and the rest basic pking gear (like Barrows, fury, skillcape, etc.), when he dies, he loses everything. The AGS is permanently gone, but everything else (all the equipment and inventory) is for the pker's taking.



And it does not allow RWT because RWT'ers would have to make AT LEAST double the cash. Say you wanted to transfer 5m. You'd have to buy 2 items worth 5m. One would be lost, and the other is given to the buyer. RWT'ers efficiency is more than halved. They need double the time, but in that extra time they have more chances to get caught.



I'm sure there are holes and that's not a realistic model. But I'm just given an example. 2 simple rules and mirrored as best as possible. That's the ideal system.

#52
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The thing is, that could apply to anyone, not just skillers.After all, pking doesnt just come from 1 in every stat, and most pkers are in fact training a skill most of the time.Thats not to say they dont pk or like pvp,right?I in fact voted for skills,because I train mage most of the time FOR pvp.heh shot myself in the foot i guess. #-o :oops:

Not too many pvpers I know vote in polls either.I toold my friend to vote for that poll, but nooo. -.-
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#53
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i agree with mostly everything u said although i didnt read through all 3 pages so i am not sure if any1 before me posted this



ibelive the old wild and what we see now should be combined...



what am i talking about? in any non pvp world for a goof high lv player the wild is a joke i can go anywhere...reverants? pfft what am i gona get swarmed by 4 mabye 5 knights? that sucks but i can still lv if i got swarmed by 5 pkers id most likly not stand a chance..



my points is instead of having dedicated bounty world y not make it so ever wilderness in every world has pking in abled like old days?



not only would this uncrowd the few bh worlds we hav but it would make the wild a risk again and get rid of those damn reverants that drop NOTHING IF U MANGE TO KILL THEM (i rememberkilling the pker that atkd u it was rare and great u got somthing at least not this 500gp BS)



so yes reinstate how bh wild is to all worlds (with some tweaks of course as u mention killing someone worth 76k and getting 5m......compared to killing soemone with 30m and get 100k is seriously [cabbage] up)



but i do sugest keep like 2-3 pvp worlds there are fun and being able to kill anyone anywhere irathe exilirating (but at least bring back pr item prayer..i can live with the auto skull)



by reinstating all the wild (remove bh crater pl0x) we will have pkers in all world and not a massiv pj/jumping fest like we do now on bounty world....
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#54
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Why? That's a good attitude to have - you sure as hell don't see other MMOs taking the same kind of stand that Jagex has about it.




No we don't--why, might you ask? Simple; it isn't necessary. It should be clear by this point that the RWT problem wasn't anywhere near as severe as Jagex portrayed it to be--propaganda is what it was. It was about control, and it was about their obsession to get rid of 'rule-breakers' (RWT); not because RWT was so grave that it would have bankrupt the company but because it was some strange obsession. Ask yourself this, if the RWT problem was as severe, why aren't other games facing such a situation? Why aren't they taking such severe steps? Take WOW for example; ultimately they are a business too. If they were losing the amount of money Jagex claims it was losing,surely they would react? No, WOW is STILL pretty Laissez-Faire, they don't have any such restrictions. Why? Because they actually make an attempt to listen to their customers and don't loathe them like Jagex does. It is this attitude that sets them apart, even though their CS isn't that much better.



An RWT obsession CAN be a bad thing, and this case it clearly is. When your obsession grows so far that you completely neglect your customers for the sake of combating RWT, that is when you draw the line. Some of these restrictions are completely ridiculous. 4 hours? 5% trade cap? These things have damaged the game in a way that RWT could have never. If it isn't merchants hoarding due to the flawed Grand Exchange System which easily lets them to do, then it is Jagex STILL trying to fix the damage from 2 years ago, or it is Jagex riddling the game with bugs. Why? Because they have no vision, the have reacted with knee-jerk reaction--one after another. Every time they please one group, they upset another, so they try to please that one, then they upset the other and so the cycle continues. It is so rushed, and poor quality, particularly bugs. We still haven't gotten anything significant--aside from minor fixes. It has been 7 months, and still NO major update this year aside from Pking; something the vast majority of RS players don't even partake in. You know what, they want control, they can have it. I will even accept no free market--how about just loosening the trade cap to 10%? That would immediately solve most of the problems with merchants and would allow the supply and demand to reach equilibrium faster--since Jagex refuses to correct prices. But no....Yeah, this attitude of their is complete BS.



As for everyone here being 'Anti-RWT', Tip.it has one for the last several years, arguably the biggest proponent of Jagex--unnecessarily so at times.

#55
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For example: Keep the auto-skull system, but remove everything else and make everything how it was pre-RWT updates. Now, when someone dies, they lose their most valuable item automatically, and you get whatever is left. In addition, if you are not risking a certain amount (not including your most valuable item), you can only attack other people who risk under that amount. There, 2 simple rules.



So if someone had an AGS and the rest basic pking gear (like Barrows, fury, skillcape, etc.), when he dies, he loses everything. The AGS is permanently gone, but everything else (all the equipment and inventory) is for the pker's taking.



And it does not allow RWT because RWT'ers would have to make AT LEAST double the cash. Say you wanted to transfer 5m. You'd have to buy 2 items worth 5m. One would be lost, and the other is given to the buyer. RWT'ers efficiency is more than halved. They need double the time, but in that extra time they have more chances to get caught.



I'm sure there are holes and that's not a realistic model. But I'm just given an example. 2 simple rules and mirrored as best as possible. That's the ideal system.




I know your model isn't really a real example but just stating it would have extreme loop holes, as would any system like it, and could be easily exploited by carrying an expensive item worth 1m and 28 other items worth 900k each. Losing 1m and transferring 25m.



But I get your point, and I agree things need to have simplicity. Like you said, Jagex need to stop gearing their PvP to make everyone gain profit and make it like it was originally intended to do, with just a few simply straightforward rules.



Jagex are forgetting that you don't need to make rules for PvP to force profit being made. Instead players over time will adapt their game strategies to gain profit in PvP.
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#56
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Or, on a PVP world, no one loses anything and no one gains anything. We just kill each other for fun, experience, and bragging rights. Go make money another way.



Problem solved again. :mrgreen:
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#57
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Or, on a PVP world, no one loses anything and no one gains anything. We just kill each other for fun, experience, and bragging rights. Go make money another way.



Problem solved again. :mrgreen:




There are already two things that do that. Clan Wars FFA and the Duel Arena.

#58
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Or, on a PVP world, no one loses anything and no one gains anything. We just kill each other for fun, experience, and bragging rights. Go make money another way.



Problem solved again. :mrgreen:




There are already two things that do that. Clan Wars FFA and the Duel Arena.




Whatever. Don't care. I just want people to stop complaining and be able to afford stuff on the GE.
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#59
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Or, on a PVP world, no one loses anything and no one gains anything. We just kill each other for fun, experience, and bragging rights. Go make money another way.



Problem solved again. :mrgreen:




There are already two things that do that. Clan Wars FFA and the Duel Arena.




Whatever. Don't care. I just want people to stop complaining and be able to afford stuff on the GE.


Well fix pvp,and the complains will stop. Deal? ;)
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#60
Me_Hate_Libs
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Or, on a PVP world, no one loses anything and no one gains anything. We just kill each other for fun, experience, and bragging rights. Go make money another way.



Problem solved again. :mrgreen:




There are already two things that do that. Clan Wars FFA and the Duel Arena.




Whatever. Don't care. I just want people to stop complaining and be able to afford stuff on the GE.


Well fix pvp,and the complains will stop. Deal? ;)




Can't fix PVP. It's like a the Jagex Yugo. You can keep it running, but just barely, and everyone will hate it and complain. Better to throw them both in the junkyard.
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