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Howlin0001

Abortion what do you think of it?

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This is mainly directed at Zierro, but anyone can reply to it.

 

 

 

I understand that you do advocate pro-choice, but that it is your opinion that you believe they should have the baby. The reasoning you gave was that they are responsible for it because they knew in advance (whether protection was used or not) that this was a possible outcome. Stop me if I've interpreted wrongly.

 

 

 

However, I'm going to take it to an extreme example. Say a couple has been together for many years and over the course of their relationship have had say 10 children (whether protection was used or not when any were conceived isn't relevant). However they realise that they cannot afford to have another baby nor do they wish to even if they could afford it. Obviously by this time in a relationship sex is an integral part so simply them never having sex again isn't an option.

 

 

 

They become incredibly paranoid about not having a baby so they go to an extreme in preventive measures (abstinence isn't really an option of course). They use multiple contraceptives to prevent pregnancy including condoms, spermicide, diaphragm, vasectomy, tubal ligation, IUS, IUD, coitus interruptus (withdrawl), NFP, morning-after pill as well as any other forms on contraceptives that can be used without interfering with the others.

 

 

 

After all this effort and against all odds, they manage to conceive another child. Now if I interpreted your opinion correctly (and I believe I have), then it would mean you think they should have the baby because even though protection was used they knew it was a possibility and are therefore responsible for it. So in this instance, do you agree with the opinion that they should have the baby for the reason stated? (Yes I know you are for the pro-choice, but I am asking for you opinion of what they should do.


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Well I disagree with that. We call a corpse a dead person, so why can't we just call Terry a vegative person?

 

 

 

These really are murky waters though. :lol: I don't know exactly how I'd define a person either.

 

 

 

Well, if a corpse is a person and so is someone who is completely brain dead, then being a person is not what matters. The existence of a 'self' is the issue that matters.

 

 

 

yes, people believe that only when the aby is truly born is it considered alive. Otherwise, it has little to no personality, it simply develops until it is ready. I still stand by my agument that abortion is wrong. It's not the fact that it is simply a "developing being, and has no individuality, etc etc etc" its that it WILL be an individual sometime down the track. Having the power over whether your child exists or not should never be given. In some rare circumstances fine (like severe complications during birth, etc etc) but for someone to have sex, get pregnant and say "no, I'm not going to let this child exist" should never happen.

 

 

 

I also beleive that if you are having sex, even when you are wearing protection, you are conceeding that you are ready for a child. Don't want to get pregnant? Don't have sex. "But I'm 20 and want to have sex". No excuses. You shouldn'be having random sex with guys anyway, who are likely to get you pregnant and ditch you first chance they get.

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Should miscarriages be illegal?

 

 

 

And as an aside to the rest of this post: I have flirted with being pro-life in the past.

 

There's a huge difference between miscarriages and abortion, a miscarriage isn't purposeful. You don't miscarry on purpose. Abortion is when you purposely kill the fetus.

 

 

 

I figured that would be your response, and now allow my retort:

 

 

 

You can be convicted of killing a baby for negligence if you leave it in the car and it dies from heat exhaustion, correct? Well, some miscarriages are the result of smoking, drinking alcohol and taking drugs. In that sense, it wouldn't be purposeful killing, but you would have killed it due to negligence.

 

 

 

Second, no, not all abortions are the purposeful killing of the child, especially not during the third trimester as the child can already be dead (which is what IDX is used for in some of the cases).

 

 

 

So let me ask you again: should miscarriages be illegal?

 

They shouldn't be illegal because negligence might not always be the cause. Lots of people have miscarriages when they're perfectly healthy, and they're careful during the pregnancy. In any case it shouldn't be illegal, unless you smoked and drank a lot, and it was obviously in a purposeful attempt to miscarry. Even still, it's only just a fetus, not an actual human being yet.

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I understand that you do advocate pro-choice, but that it is your opinion that you believe they should have the baby. The reasoning you gave was that they are responsible for it because they knew in advance (whether protection was used or not) that this was a possible outcome. Stop me if I've interpreted wrongly.

 

 

 

No no. My opinion is that choosing abortion should be legal and they don't have to have the baby. However, when people say that wearing a condom but still getting pregnant isn't considered "getting knocked up" or "causing the pregnancy", then I think that's just a dishonest way of deflecting the blame off yourself. And also, I don't think abortion is morally right, but it can be the lesser of the two evils which is why I say it should be legally okay.

 

 

 

I think it's fine if they don't have the baby, but when they pretend like they're not the ones responsible for causing the conception, then that's wrong. This is what I was arguing against:

 

 

 

And what about the ones that are accidents? Like the male/female use protection but still gets pregnant? What about then? I don't think it would be fair to call that getting knocked up.

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Ahh so I didn't get it quite right, my mistake. Even still, I'd like to think the example I provided is still relevant to this, thought not as much now I'll admit. However, I do understand what your point is. Some people try to use any excuse available to try and shift the blame from themselves.

 

 

 

Anyway, that was really the only point I was going to bring up and for the record I am pro-choice.


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They shouldn't be illegal because negligence might not always be the cause. Lots of people have miscarriages when they're perfectly healthy, and they're careful during the pregnancy. In any case it shouldn't be illegal, unless you smoked and drank a lot, and it was obviously in a purposeful attempt to miscarry. Even still, it's only just a fetus, not an actual human being yet.

 

 

 

Exactly, they shouldn't be illegal because you can't legislate for that. My point is that even if you believe a zygote is a human being who is self aware--you would be wrong, but if you believed that--zygotes are killed many times. It's simply illogical to put a zygote on the same level as a physical born human being, if not for the self-aware reasoning, but for logical reasoning.

 

 

 

And about the last sentence: exactly. So, why do you have a problem if a woman is having an abortion?

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Despite being a right-wing Republican I do believe an abortion should be allowed in certain situations. Especially those of rape, where clearly nobody is going to benefit from that. Everything else like "the mother should have a choice to abort, it's her baby" and "what if it was an accident?" and even "what if I'm just not ready?" all comes down to finding that magical point in time where it is no longer a fetus, but a real baby. That of course is a matter of opinion at the moment (due to the "is it alive??" debates), so it'll probably never be an exact determined point in time.

 

 

 

But if it was an exact point, I believe that once it becomes a baby you should not be allowed to abort, and by that time (around 5 to 6 months) you should damn well know if you're pregnant or not. If you don't know you're pregnant until 6 months after the fact... something's wrong with you... :shame:

 

 

 

And of course it's a mutual decision of the parents, meaning the father has input, but if it's different from what the wife says it gets ignored... after all... the baby isn't coming out of HIS vagina now is it? :roll:


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I view abortion not by what it is, but why you are doing it.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because of a victim of rape is fine by me. I don't think anyone wants to be a single mother of a rapist's child.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because someone had a little too much fun is wrong imo. You don't learn anything that way.


There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side.

 

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I view abortion not by what it is, but why you are doing it.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because of a victim of rape is fine by me. I don't think anyone wants to be a single mother of a rapist's child.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because someone had a little too much fun is wrong imo. You don't learn anything that way.

 

 

 

What I find sad is that you don't think people should have abortions because you feel for the "wasted life" (baby) but because you want them to be punished. Having to go through an abortion is "punishment" enough. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, it's not like an abortion is a happy thing, and it's not like you'll walk out with a smile on your face either.

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I view abortion not by what it is, but why you are doing it.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because of a victim of rape is fine by me. I don't think anyone wants to be a single mother of a rapist's child.

 

 

 

An abortion that was made because someone had a little too much fun is wrong imo. You don't learn anything that way.

 

This would be the best logic if the punishment wasn't a living person. If a [bleep]ed-ball came out of you, it'll be fitting. But we can't also punish an innocent child into poor living conditions and such.


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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I'm pretty much against it, not for a religious or life reason, but for something else. Why have sex in the first place, if you can't take responsibility for a kid if it happens? If you didn't want a kid, then don't dance... Kinda the reason for sex anyway.... :shame:

 

 

 

If you got raped... then you have a reason for one then. Otherwise... :shame:

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I'm pretty much against it, not for a religious or life reason, but for something else. Why have sex in the first place, if you can't take responsibility for a kid if it happens? If you didn't want a kid, then don't dance... Kinda the reason for sex anyway.... :shame:

 

 

 

If you got raped... then you have a reason for one then. Otherwise... :shame:

 

Because sex is one of the most awesome things on the planet.

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It's usually the same old arguments on this topic, but I thought of a new idea the other day.

 

You guys are so insistent that this human life is sacred, but raising this child is effectively killing tens of thousands.

 

Say it takes $250,000 to $300,000 to raise a child. You could instead use this money to not only donate 30,000 bed nets to families that live in high risk malaria areas, but to help provide education for their kids.

 

30,000 families that can potentially be saved, and you want somebody to condemn them to death for a kid they don't even want.

 

You could also use this money to sponsor a child. You could raise over 30 kids with the same money that you would need to raise 1.

 

What makes this being that isn't even human yet more important than all these other families and children? They have memories and times together, they take care of each other, play in the yard with each other. This unborn fetus has nothing, it has no memories, nobody has memories of it and it's not even human yet.

 

What makes the fetus's life more important?

 

Sure the person having the abortion probably won't donate the extra money, but they also aren't on their high horse spewing [cabbage] about trying to stop deaths.

 

How much money have you spend on indulgences this week? Lunch? Alcohol? A new tshirt? Say it was $20. You just killed condemned 2 families - you only want to limit the deaths as long as it's convenient. The 3rd world is so far away, so you can pretend it doesn't exist and that you're still a better person because you think unwanted children should be born to unprepared parents.

 

I'm guessing that if you decide to have a kid, you'll also have your own instead of adopting one from people who didn't have an abortion. Most will anyway. Let the kid live in an orphanage without parents, as long as it's alive you can still feel good about yourself.

 

The 'it's a life' hypocrisy is sickening.

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I support abortion.


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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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I read somewhere that abortion is linked to keeping crime rates low because it means less of the people who would grow up to be criminals are being born. However, I'm not certain about that. Anyway I'm in full support of abortion since I don't see a pre-birth organism as being sentient. To me it's the equivalent of killing a plant, only with much more stress.


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I don't think it should be used as a form of contraception, but if someone doesn't feel they can cope with a child, I think that it may be better to have an abortion, than maybe abandon the child etc.

But overall I don't think it's very right.

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I think it's quite a sad thing, abortion. It's not nice for anybody involved. But I'll tell you that it's more of a sad thing to let that child live and be born to a mother that didn't want it. Is it really fair to force a woman to keep a child she can't pay for, doesn't want and really just doesn't have the determination needed to raise well?

 

I think it's the lesser of two evils. 'Killing' a foetus is bad, but you're effectively just bringing more poverty, sadness and decay into the world by letting the foetus grow up.

 

Of course this argument only applies to working class families, when it comes to the middle class it's even more of a difficult discussion. If they can support the child, but want to abort it anyway, I think it becomes more of an issue.


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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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My views on Abortion is:

 

1: Why did they have the child if they were not willing to raise it then its their fault they shouldn't punish the child.

2: Instead of aborting the child it should be giving to a foster home and the people,etc. who had it taxed to give it a good home.

3: If they have to abortingthe child than they should be taxed highly for it rather than waste other people's money on it.


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I find it ironic that the only people supporting abortion are people who weren't aborted...

...

I'll go get one of my mates then. He was aborted.


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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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I find it ironic that the only people supporting abortion are people who weren't aborted...

I find it even more ironic people who are anti-death are alive. :roll:


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Why don't religious people allow abortion? Wouldn't the baby go straight to Heaven since it hasn't sinned?


TANSTAAFL

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I think it's quite a sad thing, abortion. It's not nice for anybody involved. But I'll tell you that it's more of a sad thing to let that child live and be born to a mother that didn't want it. Is it really fair to force a woman to keep a child she can't pay for, doesn't want and really just doesn't have the determination needed to raise well?

 

I agree with this point. I am pro-choice for this reason.

 

I find it ironic that the only people supporting abortion are people who weren't aborted...

 

#-o


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I'm against it.

 

I'm an adopted child. I have a mom and a dad who are well off financially, and actually care for me and about me, unlike the two people who acted irresponsibly and had to put me up for adoption. My adoptive parents told me that my birth mother was 17, and my birth father was 19, when they had me. I'm so [bleep]ing thankful that they didn't think they could take care of me -- because there's no way in hell they'd have been able to give as much love and care to me as my adoptive parents have. I'm also happy that my birth mother didn't choose the first of the three routes and abort me (the other two routes being giving me up for adoption and keeping me.)

 

Anyways, that all goes to say that if you aren't responsible (or even if you are, and something doesn't work or you're a rape victim or something), abortion isn't the only option. There are always people who can't have children but are willing to adopt, and you can find them pretty easily, without taking away someone's chance at life.


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I sure-as-hell know that we shouldn't be having to pay our tax money for other people's abortions.


The sour dough of the epitmous pie hungers for another's sweet lips to be dulled into a state of most irreverant humbleness

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I'm against it.

 

I'm an adopted child. I have a mom and a dad who are well off financially, and actually care for me and about me, unlike the two people who acted irresponsibly and had to put me up for adoption. My adoptive parents told me that my birth mother was 17, and my birth father was 19, when they had me. I'm so [bleep]ing thankful that they didn't think they could take care of me -- because there's no way in hell they'd have been able to give as much love and care to me as my adoptive parents have. I'm also happy that my birth mother didn't choose the first of the three routes and abort me (the other two routes being giving me up for adoption and keeping me.)

 

Anyways, that all goes to say that if you aren't responsible (or even if you are, and something doesn't work or you're a rape victim or something), abortion isn't the only option. There are always people who can't have children but are willing to adopt, and you can find them pretty easily, without taking away someone's chance at life.

That's a depressing way to look at it. Don't you think that if your fetus had been aborted your mind would've just gone to another fetus or something like that not so depressing?


TANSTAAFL

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