Tip.it Times: 9 August 2009

[Mirror]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

 

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

 

 

Enjoy the articles!

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Also if you notice any kind of grammar/spelling mistakes, please PM me instead of posting on here. Thanks!

[Aeon_]

I enjoyed the 2nd article, the first I found out about some bugs I didn't know existed.

 

 

 

I already know the DYK, but it is helpful anyway. :)

[Flodder450]

good read

[wwezach]

Most of the bugs in the 1st article I didn't even know about so it was cool to read that. The second article was very interesting and a great read. The DYK was helpful if I ever get them as a task in the future. :thumbsup:

[Lielac]

They were both good, but I liked the second one more. (Considering that I do have 99s in mind... but nothing buyable... much. Agility + Fishing ftw! maybe cooking too if I don't sell the fishies...)

 

 

 

I would like another article on bugs, mostly for my own perverse curiosity :D

[BloodShard]

good reads \ :thumbsup: =D>

[Armadyllo]

Two nice articles.

 

 

 

Bugs happen in software. Most software just crashes, or outputs gibberish, or suffers buffer overflows that let malicious people compromise the security of your computer. You see this sort of thing all the time (and you have to keep installing updates to your operating system to fix 'em).

 

 

 

RuneScape, being a game, can have bugs that look far more impressive. The secateurs that could one-hit everything (Fairy Tale Pt 1), the ability to PK via magic in the Abyss when it first appeared, getting permanently bent over from the Duel Arena, etc. These make fascinating screenshots. I have a small archive myself, showing the Half a House that appeared in Ardougne, the time males in CW had no heads, about 7 Hans walking round Lumbridge Castle, the time Harry's Fishing Shop got subsidence, etc. Okay, so I'm a bug freak.

 

 

 

Why do we care about bugs?

 

 

 

1. We expect high quality software. Some of us are paying to use it, so we have reasonable expectations that it'll work.

 

Unfortunately, while that's a fine principle, Jagex is faced with a constant clamour for more cool stuff. They tried releasing weeks of game improvements, featuring loads of fixes, and after a while the RSOF started filling up with rants about how these updates weren't good enough. Jagex has largely gone quiet about game improvements over the last couple of months (although the patch notes show just how many bugs they fix anyway).

 

 

 

2. We can lose stuff to bugs, and naughty people can benefit unfairly from them.

 

Nothing much needs be said about that.

 

 

 

3. We can point the finger at Jagex for not having a perfect QA team or perfect developers. Blame is very popular in the media.

 

 

 

I'd love to see RuneScape as a bug-free game. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever likely to see better unless Jagex completely reworks how they produce updates. And if they do that, we might have to bite the bullet and accept that updates may take longer, so we won't get as much cool stuff. While many people would be happy with this arrangement, Jagex is also expected to cater to the vocal members who may not be so patient.

[Bluey]

Well, the reason that raw materials in Runescape cost more than finished products is that RS is not a normal economy.

 

 

 

In a normal economy, people buy raw materials, use their skill to turn those into finished products, and sell those products for a profit; the profit is determined by the fact that it takes skill (and time and money to train that skill) to turn these items into finished goods.

 

 

 

In RS however, the most valuable commodity is not money (GP), but experience (XP).

 

The reason people turn raw materials into finished products in RS is not to turn a profit (generally), but because of the XP gain involved (everyone wants to reach 99).

 

Raw materials have a lot of "potential XP" stored in them. Finished products have little or no potential XP, therefore they are cheaper.

 

 

 

In short, the reason that RS economy sells finished products cheaper than its raw materials is that finished products are "used up", the all valuable XP has been drained out.

 

And that's why you cannot hope to make much money in RS skilling; selling off finished products isn't "showing off your skill, hard work and time", it's "dumping the unneeded remains after you used up their XP".

 

 

 

The reason it becomes more obvious after the introduction of the GE is that before, these products had a difficult time getting to market, too much of a hassle for skillers and not always easily findable by buyers; now, the market is ubiquitous, easy to use and world-transcending. This doesn't "ruin" the economy, it rebalances the economy like connecting lakes with water that is at different levels in each lake; once the connection is made the waterlevel will balance out across all lakes.

 

 

 

 

 

Note: You may find this surprising, but this came as a bit of a shock to some (early) developers at first, precisely because they forgot -or did not see- that XP is the valuable item here, not GP. It goes to show how unpredicable a market can be, and how easy it is to overlook some factors which turn out to be important. Never stare yourself blind on the fact that a market converts items to money and back, there may always be another -more valuable- factor at work. Money is just a convenient exchange mechanism, not always the only one.

 

This is why "free" stuff on the internet can work at times, because sometimes the value of something is expressed in other things than money, such as getting the attention and time from people, both of which are finite commodities.

[decebal]

Pretty good tip.it times right there. Enjoyed the first one quite a bit, mostly because it was like a bigger DYK .

 

 

 

As for the second one, I enjoyed it slightly more just because it shows how useless material skills (skills that convert raw materials) are these days. If Jagex wants to do something else that's a bit more "controversial", they should try rigging the prices so that it makes it worth it to train secondary skills (for example, makes it so that raw sharks are like 1k, and cooked sharks are 1.1k, or so)

[lionesshunt]

I enjoyed the first article by Master Smither, it's definitely my favorite of all the articles from the past few weeks. I do hope there is a follow up on the subject sometime soon.

[Bluey]

As for the second one, I enjoyed it slightly more just because it shows how useless material skills (skills that convert raw materials) are these days. If Jagex wants to do something else that's a bit more "controversial", they should try rigging the prices so that it makes it worth it to train secondary skills (for example, makes it so that raw sharks are like 1k, and cooked sharks are 1.1k, or so)

 

 

 

This is exactly what I meant. You cannot "rig" the price because the real value of the item is not really determined in GP, but in XP. If you want to make it more valuable, it must hold more XP.

[decebal]

As for the second one, I enjoyed it slightly more just because it shows how useless material skills (skills that convert raw materials) are these days. If Jagex wants to do something else that's a bit more "controversial", they should try rigging the prices so that it makes it worth it to train secondary skills (for example, makes it so that raw sharks are like 1k, and cooked sharks are 1.1k, or so)

 

 

 

This is exactly what I meant. You cannot "rig" the price because the real value of the item is not really determined in GP, but in XP. If you want to make it more valuable, it must hold more XP.

 

Your posted your post when I was writing mine, so I just ignored it, but now I've read through it and...

 

 

 

I see your point. You are saying that the finished items will need more xp, or what?

 

 

 

Sorry, I just woke up and I am still a bit tired :-#

[Bluey]

As for the second one, I enjoyed it slightly more just because it shows how useless material skills (skills that convert raw materials) are these days. If Jagex wants to do something else that's a bit more "controversial", they should try rigging the prices so that it makes it worth it to train secondary skills (for example, makes it so that raw sharks are like 1k, and cooked sharks are 1.1k, or so)

 

 

 

This is exactly what I meant. You cannot "rig" the price because the real value of the item is not really determined in GP, but in XP. If you want to make it more valuable, it must hold more XP.

 

Your posted your post when I was writing mine, so I just ignored it, but now I've read through it and...

 

 

 

I see your point. You are saying that the finished items will need more xp, or what?

 

 

 

Sorry, I just woke up and I am still a bit tired :-#

 

 

 

Heh, sorry :-)

 

Basically, yes, but that will never be possible, because the more XP you can make from the finished item, the more you can make from the raw material (since they lead to the finished item).

 

Forcing the market will only result in solutions like junk trading.

 

 

 

In a normal ecomomy, the further you go along the line of raw->finished, the more valuable the item (because the more time and skill and use of equipment etc)

 

In the RS economy, the further along the line raw->finished, the less valuable, because less XP remains "hidden" in the item.

 

 

 

Some finished items will be very valuable in other ways, for example sharks that can be used to regain health, but that just means raw sharks will be even more expensive, because they have both the "health" potential AND the XP potential.

[greecl]

hi, all.

 

 

 

[nstats][/nstats]great articles. very interesting, although im sorry to see that siege line of story go. good informational tip about scarabs, too.

 

 

 

yay first page! :thumbsup:

[Kolgan]

exactly why I hated those 99 capes from the very start :wall:

[NotoriousPSC]

Two nice articles.

 

 

 

Bugs happen in software. Most software just crashes, or outputs gibberish, or suffers buffer overflows that let malicious people compromise the security of your computer. You see this sort of thing all the time (and you have to keep installing updates to your operating system to fix 'em).

 

 

 

RuneScape, being a game, can have bugs that look far more impressive. The secateurs that could one-hit everything (Fairy Tale Pt 1), the ability to PK via magic in the Abyss when it first appeared, getting permanently bent over from the Duel Arena, etc. These make fascinating screenshots. I have a small archive myself, showing the Half a House that appeared in Ardougne, the time males in CW had no heads, about 7 Hans walking round Lumbridge Castle, the time Harry's Fishing Shop got subsidence, etc. Okay, so I'm a bug freak.

 

 

 

Why do we care about bugs?

 

 

 

1. We expect high quality software. Some of us are paying to use it, so we have reasonable expectations that it'll work.

 

Unfortunately, while that's a fine principle, Jagex is faced with a constant clamour for more cool stuff. They tried releasing weeks of game improvements, featuring loads of fixes, and after a while the RSOF started filling up with rants about how these updates weren't good enough. Jagex has largely gone quiet about game improvements over the last couple of months (although the patch notes show just how many bugs they fix anyway).

 

 

 

2. We can lose stuff to bugs, and naughty people can benefit unfairly from them.

 

Nothing much needs be said about that.

 

 

 

3. We can point the finger at Jagex for not having a perfect QA team or perfect developers. Blame is very popular in the media.

 

 

 

I'd love to see RuneScape as a bug-free game. Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever likely to see better unless Jagex completely reworks how they produce updates. And if they do that, we might have to bite the bullet and accept that updates may take longer, so we won't get as much cool stuff. While many people would be happy with this arrangement, Jagex is also expected to cater to the vocal members who may not be so patient.

 

 

 

 

 

Could we see those pictures?

[NotoriousPSC]

Also I would be interested in hearing about more glitches.

[doogsidoof]

i really liked master smithers article this week, i think follow up articles would be enjoyable to read. keep it up :thumbsup:

[stonewall337]

TBH, the first one had too many grammar mistakes to be taken seriously, in my opinion. I also disagree with his basic premise. To each his own opinion though, but not his own facts.

 

 

 

Well, the reason that raw materials in Runescape cost more than finished products is that RS is not a normal economy.

 

 

 

In a normal economy, people buy raw materials, use their skill to turn those into finished products, and sell those products for a profit; the profit is determined by the fact that it takes skill (and time and money to train that skill) to turn these items into finished goods.

 

 

 

In RS however, the most valuable commodity is not money (GP), but experience (XP).

 

The reason people turn raw materials into finished products in RS is not to turn a profit (generally), but because of the XP gain involved (everyone wants to reach 99).

 

Raw materials have a lot of "potential XP" stored in them. Finished products have little or no potential XP, therefore they are cheaper.

 

 

 

In short, the reason that RS economy sells finished products cheaper than its raw materials is that finished products are "used up", the all valuable XP has been drained out.

 

And that's why you cannot hope to make much money in RS skilling; selling off finished products isn't "showing off your skill, hard work and time", it's "dumping the unneeded remains after you used up their XP".

 

 

 

The reason it becomes more obvious after the introduction of the GE is that before, these products had a difficult time getting to market, too much of a hassle for skillers and not always easily findable by buyers; now, the market is ubiquitous, easy to use and world-transcending. This doesn't "ruin" the economy, it rebalances the economy like connecting lakes with water that is at different levels in each lake; once the connection is made the waterlevel will balance out across all lakes.

 

 

 

 

 

Note: You may find this surprising, but this came as a bit of a shock to some (early) developers at first, precisely because they forgot -or did not see- that XP is the valuable item here, not GP. It goes to show how unpredicable a market can be, and how easy it is to overlook some factors which turn out to be important. Never stare yourself blind on the fact that a market converts items to money and back, there may always be another -more valuable- factor at work. Money is just a convenient exchange mechanism, not always the only one.

 

This is why "free" stuff on the internet can work at times, because sometimes the value of something is expressed in other things than money, such as getting the attention and time from people, both of which are finite commodities.

 

 

 

Wow, you should write a Tip.It times. You are an excellent author, and you got your message across very clearly. I agree 100% with you. That is why it is perfectly fine for raw sharks to be worth more than cooked. (They also are used to make bunyip pouches, so they have even more demand than for cooking.)

[Armadyllo]

Could we see those pictures?

 

 

 

They're kinda stuck in my office, since I was playing RS from there when I took them. Sorry.

[MonkeyChee]

I enjoyed both articles, particularly the first as I hadn't heard of these particular bugs, so it was quite interesting to read about them :

[Earth_Poet]

I enjoyed reading the first article. I was unaware of all of these bugs except for the bandages in Duel Arena glitch. I think a famous highroller staker got banned for doing this if I remember correctly. Another thing I enjoyed about the article was that it didn't pit an argument to blame/defend Jagex on the issue of bugs, which is what happens most of the time when bugs are mentioned. It simply presented it as interesting history of Runescape. Yes, please write more about this subject.

 

 

 

TBH, the first one had too many grammar mistakes to be taken seriously, in my opinion. I also disagree with his basic premise. To each his own opinion though, but not his own facts.

 

 

 

I'm thinking you might've been referring to the second article, but if you indeed are referring to the first could you PM me about the mistakes?

 

 

 

If you are referring to the second article, then I agree. There was an edited copy ready, but I think it accidentally got overlooked.

 

 

 

I didn't like the second article as much. As stated earlier, the Runescape economy works differently than real life economies. The value of most products is represented in their xp value, and this is why raw materials are higher than finished products. Yes, early on when few people have mastered the levels to make certain items, there is some profit to be found in making the items because there is greater demand for the finished product then there is people who can supply them. Look how Bluerose dominated early on with 99 Smithing. I made all profit on my way to 99 Fletching.

 

 

 

Today, we have plenty of skillers willing to make these finished goods at discount prices. Additionally, many of these products are less in demand (such as rune weapons and armor) then they were earlier on. This leads to cheaper finished products. The raw materials can still retain their value, as the true value is in the xp, but the finished goods are a byproduct.

 

 

 

Therefore, you can't really complain that you can't make money through skills, simply by buying the raw materials and making finished goods. Everybody experiences this same scenario. Even your friend who learned a "painful reality" was contributing to the same problem by putting a glut of cooked sharks on the market through powertraining! You can profit from your skills if you decide to gather your own resources, but most of us want to reach our goals before the end of time. There's a cost vs time equation most skillers must factor in. The more money you are willing to spend, then the less time it will take to level up. How much will it cost me? How long will it take? How much can I unload my finished goods for?

 

 

 

The game changes constantly. You have to learn to keep up somehow, or learn how to supplement your income through other means.

[Returnofmic]

I really liked the topic that was addressed in the first article, but I didn't like the article as such. :-#

 

 

 

*Very long quote as seen on page 1*

 

 

 

Well said. Very well said.

[ProZac_Rehab]

Reading the second article, I started wondering about some things. Saying the macro's and RWT'ers had a big role in the economy is absolutely right.

 

I don't know if this is a possibility, but what if Jagex would create some sort of artificial input of widely used things that used to be a source for RWT'ers. I'm thinking of essence (both normal and pure), yew logs,raw lobsters and other fishies. Inputting an amount of these into the grand exchange would get prices down, but at the same time, there would be an outflow of cash, causing inflation to slow down/stop/revert. This as a measure to counteract the major input of cash from the new pking system.

 

A bad side I can see about this is pure skillers not being able to sell their raw materials at the prices they're at now.

 

 

 

I would like other ppls opinion about this as well, to see if i'm completely off.

 

 

 

 

 

First article was cool to read, because i haven't been playing long enough to have known all these bugs.

 

Also the DYK is interesting,bc the scabarites are usually a task i skip.

 

 

 

~Prozac~

[Master_Smither]

I enjoyed reading the first article. I was unaware of all of these bugs except for the bandages in Duel Arena glitch. I think a famous highroller staker got banned for doing this if I remember correctly. Another thing I enjoyed about the article was that it didn't pit an argument to blame/defend Jagex on the issue of bugs, which is what happens most of the time when bugs are mentioned. It simply presented it as interesting history of Runescape. Yes, please write more about this subject.

 

 

 

TBH, the first one had too many grammar mistakes to be taken seriously, in my opinion. I also disagree with his basic premise. To each his own opinion though, but not his own facts.

 

 

 

I'm thinking you might've been referring to the second article, but if you indeed are referring to the first could you PM me about the mistakes?

 

 

 

If you are referring to the second article, then I agree. There was an edited copy ready, but I think it accidentally got overlooked.

 

 

 

 

The famous staker was "Tainted Ones" if you were wondering. I was going to post the same thing you posted about him meaning the 2nd article.

 

 

 

The 2nd article was decent and I agree with the basic concept of it.

 

 

 

I'll be sure to follow up with another bug article, but next time it won't be all bugs most of you won't know about.