Why do we associate the Confederate Flag with racism?

[Grim_]

The reason why the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued at first was because Lincoln needed a decisive victory in the war before he was willing to carry it forward.

 

To the best of my knowledge the emancipation proclamation was mostly issued to keep European powers out of the civil war(i.e. France and Britain) which they probably would have done to keep up their cotton supply...

 

EDIT: Please tell me if i am misinformed

[stonewall337]

Also, as the War Between the States was fought not over slavery, but over States rights and taxes among a few other things, the flag being viewed as a racial symbol is due to either a reinterpretation of history to make it more "socially acceptable" or a lack of knowledge of history.

 

 

 

Okay, we might as well keep going off topic and have a history discussion, but I'll try to make it relevant.

 

 

 

When you are talking about taxes, I'm guessing you are talking about tariffs, and if so then you are going too far back towards Andrew Jackson's presidency and the Nullification Crisis. There was a congressman (and I can't think of his name for the life of me at the moment) who introduced a bill with a ridiculously high tariff with no intentions of it becoming law. His motives were purely political, and it turned into a huge blunder.

 

 

 

The North favored higher tariffs while the South despised them. The South had an agricultural economy, and higher tariffs meant higher taxes on exports. That meant the South would have a harder time selling their goods (i.e. King Cotton) overseas. The North was an industrial economy, and higher tariffs worked for two reasons. One, if the South couldn't sell their goods overseas then that meant the North was their only customer and could buy raw materials at an even cheaper price. Two, higher tariffs also meant higher taxes on imported goods. Let's say I was a northern manufacturer, and I could sell item "X" for $100 and make a profit. France could make and identical "X" for the same price, but the tariff forced the price up to $150. Now I could sell "X" for $125, making even more of a profit while still being cheaper than foreign competition.

 

 

 

The congressman who sponsored the high tariff bill expected it to be voted down. That way he could campaign in the North, saying "See! Our party tried to do something for you, but they shot it down." At the same time he could campaign in the South and say, "See what they were trying to do to you! Our party saved you by voting down the bill." The only problem was, the bill actually passed. This led to a lot of anger, with South Carolina threatening to ignore the new tariff, or even secede. A showdown between Jackson and South Carolina ensued until a compromise was made to lower the tariff. The U.S. nearly entered Civil War at this time period, and if it had it would have had a lot to do with taxes, but war never happened.

 

 

 

***

 

 

 

The Civil War did have a lot to do with slavery in one fashion or another. The problem with how many people interpret the cause from both sides is that we're assuming it was a war of moral values, and that is false. Yes, it had to do with state rights, but it was about a state's right to own slaves.

 

 

 

I already talked about how the South was dependent on agriculture. On the wealthiest of plantations, it was slaves who worked the crop fields. Because slavery had grown to such an important staple of the South's economy, and for fear of slave revolts like the ones in Haiti, there was also a belief spread that it was a just life. Even the poorest of whites were still taught they were somehow superior to slaves, even if their living conditions represented little better. There was a belief that the slaves wouldn't work the fields for pay, and that they had to be forced. If slavery was abolished, southerners feared nobody would be left to work the plantations, or that other low-waged jobs would become scarce through competition.

 

 

 

The South also feared losing their voice in D.C.. As Americans were pushing West, every territory eligible to be admitted as a state came into fierce competition between slave states and free states. We saw this in the Missouri Compromise, and we saw this in the fight over Kansas. When Lincoln won the election, states began to secede. The Confederacy had already attacked Fort Sumter and started the Civil War before Lincoln had even taken office.

 

 

 

So the Civil War had everything to do with slavery to one degree or another, but it wasn't about morality. It was about economics and politics, but the line that divided both was slavery.

 

 

 

Has the view been reinterpreted since? Yes. The image of the gallant Union troops swooping in and saving the nation from the corruption of the South, and breaking the chains of slavery, because it was the noble and right thing to do etc., is a distorted image. The Republican party, for the remainder of the 19th century, were "waving the bloody shirt" to remind voters that it was the evil Southern Democrats who started a war that killed your husband, father, brother, or son. And the Republicans reminded African-Americans every election year that it was their party that had freed them. Yeah, the Civil War story became distorted over time, but that doesn't mean it wasn't over slavery. It had everything to do with slavery.

 

 

 

***

 

 

 

So does this mean the Confederate flag represents racism? Yes, but it has nothing to do with everything I just said up there. The Civil War era is just where the symbol came from. Southern states began flying the flag in the 1950s and 60s in defiance of the Civil Rights movement, and the push for desegregation. Since then the story has changed of why they fly/flew over state capitals and appeared on state flags.

 

 

 

Now listening to everyone else, I've changed my mind to some degree. I will concede some that it isn't always intended to represent hate. It depends on the situation. But I will say this: Even if you wave the flag with good intentions, it sends mixed signals about who you are.

 

 

 

I've lived in Alabama, Georgia, and North Carolina most of my life. I'm proud to be from the South, but I would think there are other, better symbols to represent your pride, patriotism, and heritage. To me, the flag means nothing more than separatism, segregation, and rebellion.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I guess that congressman's name was John Calhoun, but I'm not sure...that's from Wikipedia.

 

 

 

Wow, I guess I will have to go into my "historian mode"

 

 

 

Yes, tarrifs were what I intended to put. However, it was quite late at night and I couldn't think of the word. I will try to get back with the rest of my argument, however as I am busy at this time.

 

 

 

I also believe you were talking about Douglas and his compromise of 1850, which WAS purely political.

[Earth_Poet]

Wow, I guess I will have to go into my "historian mode"

 

 

 

Yes, tarrifs were what I intended to put. However, it was quite late at night and I couldn't think of the word. I will try to get back with the rest of my argument, however as I am busy at this time.

 

 

 

I also believe you were talking about Douglas and his compromise of 1850, which WAS purely political.

 

 

 

No, I'm talking about the Nullification Crisis in the 1830s, which I thought you were referring to because it was the only time that war almost broke out because of taxes. If not, then I'll wait for your explanations to clarify your position.

[magmaguard3]

There's really no need to associate it with racism anymore. As you said the flag is mostly used as a symbolism of southern pride, and I doubt most of the men wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag on it are racist and want slavery to be legal again.

[ember3579]

There's really no need to associate it with racism anymore. As you said the flag is mostly used as a symbolism of southern pride, and I doubt most of the men wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag on it are racist and want slavery to be legal again.

 

 

 

 

 

Almost every single noticeable use of it is by bastards such as the KKK. Just because the symbol didn't originally mean that, doesn't mean it won't mean that to everyone. Just look at the swastika. There's a LOT of cultures that use that, and most use it to symbolize something good. The Nazis used it, and now anybody whose ever heard of them associate it with those genocidal psychopaths. Just because it doesn't seem right doesn't mean it won't happen.

[Grim_]

There's really no need to associate it with racism anymore. As you said the flag is mostly used as a symbolism of southern pride, and I doubt most of the men wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag on it are racist and want slavery to be legal again.

 

Ever heard of the KKK?(these guys)

 

[Barihawk]

There's really no need to associate it with racism anymore. As you said the flag is mostly used as a symbolism of southern pride, and I doubt most of the men wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag on it are racist and want slavery to be legal again.

 

Ever heard of the KKK?(these guys)

 

 

 

 

Again, an organization which has a slightly stronger presence in the Northern United States than it does in the South. There is less public support for the Klan as well.

 

 

 

The reason why the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued at first was because Lincoln needed a decisive victory in the war before he was willing to carry it forward.

 

To the best of my knowledge the emancipation proclamation was mostly issued to keep European powers out of the civil war(i.e. France and Britain) which they probably would have done to keep up their cotton supply...

 

EDIT: Please tell me if i am misinformed

 

 

 

You are. Britain and France by this time had moved cotton production to their colonies in Africa and India and no longer needed the South. Lincoln issued the Proclamation (which freed zero slaves) merely to garner support among abolitionists and slaves in the South. Particularly the latter, he reasoned, would not be intelligent enough to see the flaw in the bill and then lead slave insurrections.

[Earth_Poet]

Again, an organization which has a slightly stronger presence in the Northern United States than it does in the South. There is less public support for the Klan as well.

 

 

 

Barihawk, this is very misleading. The KKK originated and flourished in the South after the Civil War. It was predominantly used by southern officials covertly as a terrorist organization to prevent African-Americans from voting. After Congress passed laws against the KKK in order to protect voting rights, the organization went largely underground.

 

 

 

There was a time when the clan was probably slightly stronger in the Midwest, around the time when a famous Klansman raped and murdered a woman, and was tried and convicted. But now, I'd like to know where you are getting your information.

 

 

 

The Klan is strongest in the South and in the Midwest.

 

 

 

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/default.asp

 

 

 

Even if there is a stronger presence in the North today (and I'd only imagine that happening if they are linking up with neo-nazi groups), the Klan has very deep southern roots, and is always associated with the South.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

The problem is one of appearences. The problem is the majority, but certainly not all, of people with Confederate flags tend to be rednecks with if not racist, certainly bigoted tendencies.

 

 

 

Also the flag represents slavery. Maybe not for real, but that's what people remember most about the civil war. Slaves.

 

 

 

That and people trying to convice us to respect the Confederate flag tend to be really annoying and beligerant. I've taken to calling them "flaggots."

[Barihawk]

Again, an organization which has a slightly stronger presence in the Northern United States than it does in the South. There is less public support for the Klan as well.

 

 

 

Barihawk, this is very misleading. The KKK originated and flourished in the South after the Civil War. It was predominantly used by southern officials covertly as a terrorist organization to prevent African-Americans from voting. After Congress passed laws against the KKK in order to protect voting rights, the organization went largely underground.

 

 

 

There was a time when the clan was probably slightly stronger in the Midwest, around the time when a famous Klansman raped and murdered a woman, and was tried and convicted. But now, I'd like to know where you are getting your information.

 

 

 

The Klan is strongest in the South and in the Midwest.

 

 

 

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/default.asp

 

 

 

Even if there is a stronger presence in the North today (and I'd only imagine that happening if they are linking up with neo-nazi groups), the Klan has very deep southern roots, and is always associated with the South.

 

 

 

The Klan has chapters in every state, and racism is a common American theme. Many Northern Presidents even supported the Klan off the record. This also being long ago.

 

 

 

The Klan is definitely more vocal in some areas of the South like in Alabama, but it's very hard to find and lacks support in many other metropolitan areas of the South. The KKK is most likely to be found in any rural region of any US state, and currently has more chapters in what used to be the Union, according to KKK's own website. Now, does that mean the North must be a den of racists? No, it just means that there happen to be more chapters up there, and that doesn't mean all that much. Alabama has the highest number of members, Illinois comes in at number 2, surprisingly.

 

 

 

White supremacy is absolutely not a southern theme. The KKK is actually looked down on by most society here, today. Many officials will outright refuse to issue permits for the KKK to march. Some cities in Texas have even made hoods illegal.

 

 

 

But associating the South with racism is a completely misleading point in itself. Racism exists everywhere, no matter which side of the Mason-Dixon line. And whether it's skinheads or idiots in bedsheets, it's still wrong. However, people take it for granted. A simple flag does not cause nor perpetuate these feelings. It's what people believe that matters.

[Earth_Poet]

But associating the South with racism is a completely misleading point in itself. Racism exists everywhere, no matter which side of the Mason-Dixon line. And whether it's skinheads or idiots in bedsheets, it's still wrong. However, people take it for granted. A simple flag does not cause nor perpetuate these feelings. It's what people believe that matters.

 

 

 

It's a symbol that represents beliefs. There are plenty of symbols that represent beliefs: the peace sign, the swastika, the olive branch, the black panther, etc. The flag didn't start out as a representation of hate, but it evolved to incorporate it. You're right. Racism doesn't stop at the Mason-Dixon line, and neither does the flag. The Civil Rights movement didn't just take place in the South either, but that's where the center of it was, and along with the movement came a resurgence in the Confederate flag we see flying today, and there was no great mystery as to why southern states started flying the flag during this time period. It's this very reason why I say the flag represents racism and intolerance.

 

 

 

The KKK has grown into a national organization, but it was born out of the Confederacy's loss in the Civil War. There's a monument of Nathan Forrest sitting in my home town, about a mile from my house today, honoring him as a Confederate soldier. I guess it's only a coincidence that he's also looked at as a father of the KKK. And I bet if anybody even suggested at tearing it down, it would stir up a hornet's nest just like it did to remove the "Stars and Bars" from our state flag, which was put there in the 1950s to protest the Civil Rights movement by the way.

[das]

I fly both the american flag and confederate flag - am I racist?

[magmaguard3]

There's really no need to associate it with racism anymore. As you said the flag is mostly used as a symbolism of southern pride, and I doubt most of the men wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag on it are racist and want slavery to be legal again.

 

 

 

 

 

Almost every single noticeable use of it is by bastards such as the KKK. Just because the symbol didn't originally mean that, doesn't mean it won't mean that to everyone. Just look at the swastika. There's a LOT of cultures that use that, and most use it to symbolize something good. The Nazis used it, and now anybody whose ever heard of them associate it with those genocidal psychopaths. Just because it doesn't seem right doesn't mean it won't happen.

 

 

 

 

 

The KKK's impact with the confederate flag is way smaller than the Nazis and their use of the swastika. I mean, sure the KKK used the confederate flag, but did they make it what it is today like the Nazis did with the swastika? When you see a swastika I assume you immediately think "Nazis" but when you see the confederate flag I'm sure you don't think KKK. But I'm just assuming so don't get me wrong here. :

[Lenticular_J]

The KKK has grown into a national organization, but it was born out of the Confederacy's loss in the Civil War.

 

Originally it was hatred of the North, thanks to Sherman and Grant's total war policies resulting in the utter destruction of much of the South. I wouldn't exactly call it a loss, considering the North began destroying everything they could in an effort to end the war of attrition (which, funnily enough, would have caused the Confederacy's loss before too long anyways. Even in the beginning of the war, Rebs would be forced to pick shots carefully due to having only a few balls and a tiny bit of powder).

 

 

 

All the same, the KKK rapidly fell into the ridiculous group of [wagon] it is today. Well, more along the lines of the Reconstruction-era KKK.

[Barihawk]

Anyone wanting a history of the KKK from the Klan's perspective should watch the first movie, ever. Birth of a Nation. Shown in the White House dozens of times to Presidents who enjoyed it's racist views. It does, however, show how the South viewed the North in the aftermath of the Civil War, which is understandable.

[Earth_Poet]

Anyone wanting a history of the KKK from the Klan's perspective should watch the first movie, ever. Birth of a Nation. Shown in the White House dozens of times to Presidents who enjoyed it's racist views. It does, however, show how the South viewed the North in the aftermath of the Civil War, which is understandable.

 

 

 

It was more about how the KKK saw themselves. Protecting the sanctity of the white woman, driving carpetbaggers out of the South, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound...

 

 

 

It's true though, after President Wilson viewed and endorsed the film it grew in popularity, along with the KKK. There's a rumor that President Harding took his oath to the KKK on the White House lawn the day of his inauguration.

 

 

 

I fly both the american flag and confederate flag - am I racist?

 

 

 

No, you're just a troublemaker, Das. :P

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I still annoyed at people who don't know the difference between racism and bigotry.

 

 

 

Racism is really the blief of genetic superiority of one race over another and often the subsequent belief in the superior race holding control over the alleged inferior race. While bigotry is simply the resentment/dislike/hatred of someone because of their race.

[Earth_Poet]

I still annoyed at people who don't know the difference between racism and bigotry.

 

 

 

Racism is really the blief of genetic superiority of one race over another and often the subsequent belief in the superior race holding control over the alleged inferior race. While bigotry is simply the resentment/dislike/hatred of someone because of their race.

 

 

 

When we talk about racism, we are also including racial discrimination and racial prejudices. It's common knowledge, so there's really no need to split hairs here. Bigotry is not towards race specifically. Bigotry is more of an irrational intolerance of anybody who has a different opinion/belief/ideology from yours. There's racial bigotry, religious bigotry, political bigotry, etc.

 

 

 

"All Indians are nothing but drunks."

 

"All black people are lazy."

 

 

 

^ Those would be bigoted statements, but they'd also be racially prejudiced comments.

 

 

 

"Democrats are homosexual crybabies who are envious of success."

 

"Republicans are fear mongering xenophobes who practice social darwinism."

 

 

 

^ Those are bigoted statements, too, but have nothing to do with race.

 

 

 

If I open a restaurant and hang a sign outside that says, "No Coloreds Allowed", then that's racial discrimination i.e. racism.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

That's the popular redefinition of racism. As a person with a degree in English, and a terrible typer, I still prefer using the words as they are exactly defined. I don't use the word racism whtn I mean bigotry or prejudice or vice-versa.