Scientology? Scam? Cult? Religion? Joke?

[Pirate_Felix]

Religion makes one thing a helluva lot better in the world.

Charity

Muslims are supposed to give to charity by their religion, if you ask for a nights sleep at a muslim family every muslim has to give you a place to sleep for 3 days. After that you should move on.

Christians try to "enlighten" tramps and dropouts into the path of god and making their life better, if somebody tells me "i have found god in my life and now im off the heroine" im happy that people believe in god

 

IDK about Jews (._.)

And im quite sure all Buddhists respect all life on the earth

And if im not mistake so do the hindu's.

 

Scientology, doesnt do anything good for the people who dont believe, apart from sue them or something

 

Which is why i believe it isnt a religion.

 

It steals all your money and gives it to the rich people up high in the rankings->its a scam

 

Meetings and stuff that happens within the buildings is closed to everyone, opposed to Churches, Mosques, Synagogues.->A cult

 

And all the people who believe in it are damn funny->Joke.

[Will H]

The second Panorama programme shows us something: A religion, as in the ideas, beliefs, and concepts, are in no way the same thing as the 'official' organisation of that religion. I can believe in a benevolent all powerful God, but I don't have to go to a church, mosque, or other place of worship to do so. A lot of the people who have left the Church of Scientology in that program still believe in the set of beliefs, but disagree with the Church. They have actually made a distinction that most people, and dare I say it a significant number of the people on this thread, have failed to do.

 

Scientology is a religion by the definition of the word, BUT, the Church of Scientology is a scam and a cult. And if it's big enough to warrant such intense debate across the world, both are far from a joke.

[meb]

The South Park episode about this is brilliant.

[Skeptical]

I fail to understand the distinction between cult and religion.

 

Blind obedience to a code of dogmatic belief that has been presented to, supposedly, by a higher power or prophet... at which point they start asking for money.

[20Rice04]

I pride myself on not standing by while evil acts are committed. I will not tolerate discrimination against myself or others, or the abuse of any human being, if I can prevent it.

 

Religion is not just incorrect. If it was merely incorrect, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it: more of something along the lines of eye-rolling and exasperation. But it is evil.

 

 

You wont tolerate discrimination against yourself or others? Kind of ironic then that you just completely bashed the hell out of ALL Religions, and thereby ALL of their followers, by calling them Evil.

 

If you kill an innocent man with a sword in cold blood - the sword is not evil, but the killer is. For the same reason religion itself is not evil, most religions provide people with a decent set of moral standards by which to live their lives, what's evil about that? The thing is that mankind can pervert something which is good to their own ends and THAT is evil.

 

Morality is a human construct.

 

I also have a problem with this, because there've been situations were humans have been raised by animals, but they still have a set of morals, they KNOW what is 'right' and 'wrong'. That means it's hard wired into us, so it could be one of two things: either there is a 'god' (maybe it exists in the Thiestic sense, or maybe it's more of a 'New World' sense) or we've evolved it in order to further our chances of passing on our own genes (as Discussed in Richard Dawkins "Selfish Gene"). But I don't find the latter explanation satisfactory because humans are capable fo doing completely irrational things in the name of morality which could ultimately destroy any chances we have of apssing on our genes; it just doesn't seem right to me.

[fakeitormakeit2]

I fail to understand the distinction between cult and religion.

 

Blind obedience to a code of dogmatic belief that has been presented to, supposedly, by a higher power or prophet... at which point they start asking for money.

The dictionary is a wonderful tool, you know. If you're unfamiliar with how it works, it's organized alphabetically and the words on top show what alphabetical section the words on the page fall between. There are even electronic dictionaries in which you search your desired word and the definition comes up.

 

Let me help you with that:

The definition of 'religion': "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience."

The definition of 'cult': "a quasi-religious organization using devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents ."

 

The contrast is quite apparent. In necessity of the definition, a religion is not dogmatic or blind. Bear witness to the illuminating wonders of the all-knowing dictionary.

[Will H]

Morality is a human construct.

 

I also have a problem with this, because there've been situations were humans have been raised by animals, but they still have a set of morals, they KNOW what is 'right' and 'wrong'. That means it's hard wired into us, so it could be one of two things: either there is a 'god' (maybe it exists in the Thiestic sense, or maybe it's more of a 'New World' sense) or we've evolved it in order to further our chances of passing on our own genes (as Discussed in Richard Dawkins "Selfish Gene"). But I don't find the latter explanation satisfactory because humans are capable fo doing completely irrational things in the name of morality which could ultimately destroy any chances we have of apssing on our genes; it just doesn't seem right to me.

 

Your statement is very ambiguous. When you say 'they know what is 'right' or 'wrong'', do you mean that they have their own ideas on what is 'right' or 'wrong' or that they agree with your own ideas of 'right and 'wrong'?

 

 

If it's the first, yes, humans are hard wired to do that. We primarily rely on morality as a social construct, the result of the thoughts and discussions of the ancestors of those who teach us. However, if left without any input, a human will use his/her own experiences as a base to form his/her own morals, in which case it is simply a human construct. For example, a common, but not universal one is the principle of cooperation for mutual benefit, and anyone would work that one out by discovering the bad consequences of not cooperating with others. Our genes tell us to observe, remember, generalise, and act, the tools for making a moral system, but they don't tell us what we come up with, otherwise we'd all have the same concept of morality. It's still a human construct.

 

If it's the second one, I don't believe you. It's not plausible to think that two humans that have never met and do not have any common experiences will have the exact same concepts of morality. In fact, I have reservations that such a thing is possible even if you HAVE met or have common experiences. Nobody *knows* (as in the universal non-subjective know) 'right' and 'wrong'.

[ember3579]

.... Just for the sake of argument, HOW specifically is all religion evil? Discount the fringe lunatics of each group (WBC, KKK, Al Qaeda, Taliban, etc.) and give it to me. From my (albeit jaded, but obviously you're not much better) viewpoint, religion in and of itself is a good thing. It sets down a moral code, it can bring people together (racial diversity of Christians is an example), and it tends to help keep people in high spirits. Knowing that there's a purpose to what they're doing rather than greed/self-satisfaction is very motivating for a lot of people. Also, please don't attack me or other people for our beliefs. While other religious folk (misguided, usually by misinterpretation of their religion or just plain ignorance) are certainly not innocent of this, we try to not go out of our way to personally attack the other side. Please extend the same courtesy, if you want any sort of real debate on this topic.

[20Rice04]

Morality is a human construct.

 

I also have a problem with this, because there've been situations were humans have been raised by animals, but they still have a set of morals, they KNOW what is 'right' and 'wrong'. That means it's hard wired into us, so it could be one of two things: either there is a 'god' (maybe it exists in the Thiestic sense, or maybe it's more of a 'New World' sense) or we've evolved it in order to further our chances of passing on our own genes (as Discussed in Richard Dawkins "Selfish Gene"). But I don't find the latter explanation satisfactory because humans are capable fo doing completely irrational things in the name of morality which could ultimately destroy any chances we have of apssing on our genes; it just doesn't seem right to me.

 

Your statement is very ambiguous. When you say 'they know what is 'right' or 'wrong'', do you mean that they have their own ideas on what is 'right' or 'wrong' or that they agree with your own ideas of 'right and 'wrong'?

 

 

If it's the first, yes, humans are hard wired to do that. We primarily rely on morality as a social construct, the result of the thoughts and discussions of the ancestors of those who teach us. However, if left without any input, a human will use his/her own experiences as a base to form his/her own morals, in which case it is simply a human construct. For example, a common, but not universal one is the principle of cooperation for mutual benefit, and anyone would work that one out by discovering the bad consequences of not cooperating with others. Our genes tell us to observe, remember, generalise, and act, the tools for making a moral system, but they don't tell us what we come up with, otherwise we'd all have the same concept of morality. It's still a human construct.

 

If it's the second one, I don't believe you. It's not plausible to think that two humans that have never met and do not have any common experiences will have the exact same concepts of morality. In fact, I have reservations that such a thing is possible even if you HAVE met or have common experiences. Nobody *knows* (as in the universal non-subjective know) 'right' and 'wrong'.

 

I meant that all Humans seem to have hard wired into them a certain morale code. For exaample: no individual human of a stable mental health will ever glorify murder, unless this thought is placed within them by another human being. Even when murder benefits us no one with any sense about them would take that path because they know it is wrong. Obviously people with different experiences are going to have different opinions on the fine points, but essentially "The Ten Commandments" can be found in every single society:

 

we know stealing is wrong

murder is wrong

adultery is wrong

 

the only time that we ever go against our moral code is when our very live's are risked by not doing so.

[Saru Inc]

The truth is impartial. Morality is a human construct.

And I'm saying I'm indifferent to the truth of this topic. Morality doesn't factor in to not wanting to form an opinion without facts.

 

Also, pretty sure you are human.

 

Yes. I'm not quite clear on what your point is. And yes, morality is factored into every decision that a human being makes. It''s a symptom of our humanity: we can temper it with logic, it can be coloured by our experiences, but in the end we will all develop a sense of morality.

 

He's not debating that. Stop trying to sound educated lol. And ra-ra-read what he's actually saying ;)

 

I fail to understand the distinction between cult and religion.

 

Blind obedience to a code of dogmatic belief that has been presented to, supposedly, by a higher power or prophet... at which point they start asking for money.

 

So your failure of comprehension should affect all of the definitions of those who can understand the difference?

[obfuscator]

He did say he admired his lack of stupidity... :unsure:

[Flodder450]

Religion makes one thing a helluva lot better in the world.

Charity

Muslims are supposed to give to charity by their religion, if you ask for a nights sleep at a muslim family every muslim has to give you a place to sleep for 3 days. After that you should move on.

Christians try to "enlighten" tramps and dropouts into the path of god and making their life better, if somebody tells me "i have found god in my life and now im off the heroine" im happy that people believe in god

 

IDK about Jews (._.)

And im quite sure all Buddhists respect all life on the earth

And if im not mistake so do the hindu's.

 

Scientology, doesnt do anything good for the people who dont believe, apart from sue them or something

 

Which is why i believe it isnt a religion.

 

It steals all your money and gives it to the rich people up high in the rankings->its a scam

 

Meetings and stuff that happens within the buildings is closed to everyone, opposed to Churches, Mosques, Synagogues.->A cult

 

And all the people who believe in it are damn funny->Joke.

My thoughts exactly

 

i was raised Christian,and we were always told that we always could fall back on Jesus or God for our problems and such

[Danqazmlp]

What people are forgetting is that Scientology itself is not a cult. It is a belief system (albeit it looks far-fetched to an outsider) just like Christianity and Islam.

 

The problem is the Church of Scientology. The church is the cult. I would compare the church to other religious extremist groups around the world.

[sees_all1]

What people are forgetting is that Scientology itself is not a cult. It is a belief system (albeit it looks far-fetched to an outsider) just like Christianity and Islam.

 

The problem is the Church of Scientology. The church is the cult. I would compare the church to other religious extremist groups around the world.

 

Is that to say there are other sects of scientology? Usually cults are minorities, but if the majority of scientology is a cult, then I'd say scientology is a cult.

[Racheya]

What people are forgetting is that Scientology itself is not a cult. It is a belief system (albeit it looks far-fetched to an outsider) just like Christianity and Islam.

 

The problem is the Church of Scientology. The church is the cult. I would compare the church to other religious extremist groups around the world.

 

Is that to say there are other sects of scientology? Usually cults are minorities, but if the majority of scientology is a cult, then I'd say scientology is a cult.

There are groups, such as the Free Zone, which practice Scientology outside of the Church/cult. However these are obviously shunned by the Church organisation.

[Will H]

What people are forgetting is that Scientology itself is not a cult. It is a belief system (albeit it looks far-fetched to an outsider) just like Christianity and Islam.

 

The problem is the Church of Scientology. The church is the cult. I would compare the church to other religious extremist groups around the world.

 

Is that to say there are other sects of scientology? Usually cults are minorities, but if the majority of scientology is a cult, then I'd say scientology is a cult.

 

You know perfectly well that it doesn't work like that. Mainstream Scientology, that being the one endorsed by the CoS, is a cult. Offshoot groups want to disassociate themselves from the CoS because it is a cult, they explicitly want to get away from that. You can't just label them as cults when they honestly want to get away from that culture and just practice their beliefs in a free environment, it's just unfair.

[Danqazmlp]

The church have the power because of the small size of the religion. Imagine the power the Vatican would have over Catholics if only those inside and a few hundred outside practised the religion.

 

The Church is nothing short of a bully society.