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Zierro

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I agree with what Ouchy said, not fining would mean the government is basically sanctioning it and would make the country liable.

Not really. Alcohol is allowed, but the gov't isn't liable for any shenanigans we get in when we're drunk. Honestly, it's probably only a law because there's the opportunity for it to produce revenue for local/state gov'ts.

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I always put my seatbelt on out of habit, unless I'm driving, I always forget when I drive.

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I belive in wereing one. In fact, rule in my car is that I dont movet untill everyone has a seatbelt on. Sure It might be uncomfortable but get over it, it can save your life.


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Until just recently in the state of South Carolina you as the driver could get a ticket if anyone in the car was not wearing a seatbelt. Now they will ticket each person individually for not wearing it. They can pull you over and ticket your friend in the passenger seat for not wearing it.

 

Its a good law, i like it. If you want to risk your life cool, but i don't so i'll wear mine.


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It's a matter of whether you think that intelligent people should be punished for simple mistakes.

 

Personally, I think that they should have a test before your driver's license, before you become a legal adult, and before you can drink. I'm not sure how the test would work, but if you can prove you're responsible, you don't get tagged with all the stupid annoying laws that are "for your own good." If you prove irresponsible, you get the annoying laws.


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Personally, I think that they should have a test before your driver's license, before you become a legal adult, and before you can drink. I'm not sure how the test would work, but if you can prove you're responsible, you don't get tagged with all the stupid annoying laws that are "for your own good." If you prove irresponsible, you get the annoying laws.

Ugh, I'm getting tired of this "intellectual" elitism of TIF. Is anybody else annoyed?

 

And to stay on-topic, just because you're "intelligent" doesn't mean an ACCIDENT will never happen to you. You must also realize that it's not so much YOU lost control, but THEY lost control and crashed into YOU. Humans aren't "intelligent" enough to move things with their minds unfortunately.


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For example, if your car is submerged in water or on fire, you need to escape the car ASAP. Sometimes wearing a seat belt will just get in the way. Not only that, but defective seat belts can cause major injuries even in normal accidents.

 

1.) People don't plan for themselves to be wearing seatbelts and then, hey oh' look, you're underwater. What I'm saying is, that its useless to make assumptions about whether seatbelts are helpful in a situation, because the purpose of the seatbelt is to avoid these unpredictable accidents.

 

2.) Defective seatbelts ? DEFECTIVE SEATBELTS "CAN CAUSE MAJOR INJURIES EVEN IN NORMAL ACCIDENTS" ???

 

- C'mon, Zierro, even you know how ridiculous this sounds.

 

EDIT: I find most of the arguments people have against wearing seatbelts, is that they restrict your escape in a crash etc...

 

A human body flying through a windscreen at 60 km/hr target for bitumen is as good as, whatever you people say.

 

Here in Australia, it's mandatory for all people inside the car.

 

On your American part, I also see that it is a type of primitve rebellion.

 

Waaaah, our government cant tell us what to do. Every citizen is independant. Why do we have to rely on someone else telling about our own safety.

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Working as a police officer i've witnessed a lot of bad scenes. The worst one i've seen, thats burned into my mind is coming up to an accident scene on the interstate involving a semi truck, a pickup truck pulling a horse trailer, and a SUV. The SUV hit the horse trailer from behind causing it to push the truck pulling it into the back of a semi truck. Pulling up on scene on the passenger side of the vehicles, all i can see in this pickup truck is an arm hanging down, coming out from between a crushed windshield and dashboard, the upper half of her body is crushed on the dashboard by the windshield, she's not even sitting in the seat anymore. The seatbelt was dangling freely, untouched, unbuckled. That woman could of been spared that fate just by putting that belt on.

 

The belt saves lives, theres no questions about that. And you as a cautious driver can always buy a seat belt knife or window hammer at Wal-Mart for a couple of bucks. If you are that paranoid. Attach it with some velcro or a clip on the dash somewhere or beside your seat. Some knives already have them on there.

 

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1.) People don't plan for themselves to be wearing seatbelts and then, hey oh' look, you're underwater. What I'm saying is, that its useless to make assumptions about whether seatbelts are helpful in a situation, because the purpose of the seatbelt is to avoid these unpredictable accidents.

 

2.) Defective seatbelts ? DEFECTIVE SEATBELTS "CAN CAUSE MAJOR INJURIES EVEN IN NORMAL ACCIDENTS" ???

 

People have died from seat belts. It isn't as rare as you think. Getting out of a submerged or burning car is hard enough as it is. Forcing you to wear a seat belt causes you to be in more danger in those situations. Besides, I've heard of those occurrences way more than I've ever heard of a human projectile killing other people.

 

- C'mon, Zierro, even you know how ridiculous this sounds.

 

It's funny how you complained about when I debate on OT, but now it almost seems like you're following me around just to argue with me.

 

And what's "even you" supposed to mean?

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Seatbelts obviously make crashes less damaging to people then if they don't wear it. I think it's so if a person crashes into someone else and does alot of damage to them just because they wern't wearing a seatbelt, the driver of the car that crashed into the person that wasn't wearing their seatbelt has more unnessicary reponsiblity to take for the damages.

 

If that make sense.

 

You have to wear your seatbelt here in NZ in a car (over 15 its your responsiblity, under 15 its the drivers), I don't really see why you wouldn't unless it was a very short journey.

 

I remember when I went to Thailand, and the taxi from Bangkok airport, it had seatbelts but no click thingy, and we spent ages looking for it and the taxi driver was just laughing, heh.


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1.) People don't plan for themselves to be wearing seatbelts and then, hey oh' look, you're underwater. What I'm saying is, that its useless to make assumptions about whether seatbelts are helpful in a situation, because the purpose of the seatbelt is to avoid these unpredictable accidents.

 

2.) Defective seatbelts ? DEFECTIVE SEATBELTS "CAN CAUSE MAJOR INJURIES EVEN IN NORMAL ACCIDENTS" ???

 

People have died from seat belts. It isn't as rare as you think. Getting out of a submerged or burning car is hard enough as it is. Forcing you to wear a seat belt causes you to be in more danger in those situations. Besides, I've heard of those occurrences way more than I've ever heard of a human projectile killing other people.

 

Yes, but on road accidents are far more common than these burning car, and underwater scenarios you have in mind. It might be a fairly common occurence, but my point is you can never be fully prepared for it. So, take it like this.

 

Once you get in the car you have two choices. To wear your seatbelt and risk crashing and burning and frying to a crisp because you couldn't escape or not wear your seatbelt and get vaulted at high speeds at tarmac [even for back seat passengers, the headrest is lethal].

 

But, I would rather take the "risk" of wearing my seatbelt to avoid serious injury in the event of a much more common type of accident than actually risk my saftey not wearing my seatbelt in he event of a lesser common accident.

You also forget, that the type of accident is highly dependant on weather conditions, the actual vehicle, the road, and the outside environment, and not only on the driver.

 

For example, I would opt to wear my seatbelt if I was riding shotgun in a Toyota Camry and travelling a medium speed within the suburbs. Of course this changes if I'm in a 4WD on some country road.

 

- C'mon, Zierro, even you know how ridiculous this sounds.

 

It's funny how you complained about when I debate on OT, but now it almost seems like you're following me around just to argue with me.

 

lolwut ?

 

And what's "even you" supposed to mean?

 

I don't know, sounded like a good idea at the time.

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People have died from seat belts. It isn't as rare as you think. Getting out of a submerged or burning car is hard enough as it is. Forcing you to wear a seat belt causes you to be in more danger in those situations. Besides, I've heard of those occurrences way more than I've ever heard of a human projectile killing other people.

 

I did a little bit of research on this and found two quite satisfactory answers.

 

While wearing a seatbelt does cause some further restriction (though not much, it's not difficult to get one off), it also increases your chances of being conscious in these situations. I'd rather face a very slight delay in taking my seatbelt off than be out cold and unable to do anything.

 

Secondly, people being ejected from cars is apparantly the biggest cause of death in road accidents. Of course the person ejected will rarely ever hit another person, but it does cause further complications on roads and for emergency services.


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However, not wearing a seatbelt causes serious injury. Serious injury = expensive rehabilitation = more tax dollars spent. It's really just being proactive.

 

(I realize not all countries have universal hc)


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On the whole they're a good safety measure and everyone should wear them. I have no problem with fines for offenders because wearing a seatbelt is such a minor thing and its not an inconvenience.

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Where I live, seatbelts have been mandatory for as long as I can remember. There are heavy fines, and I don't think anybody ever questions the use of wearing it, except for a few highly intelligent and brave youngsters here and there who wind up making the weekend headlines. I realize that the US isn't exactly an active social welfare and health care state, but I understand the governments of those states' reasoning to make seatbelts mandatory if they're going to pay the better part of the repair works on your sorry behind because you felt it was your liberal right not to wear a seatbelt.

 

This is obviously the age old debate between liberal, passive governing and social, active governing. Quite frankly, I don't think it's bad that the government intervenes in this case. How many of the people who crash and are severely hurt because they didn't wear a seatbelt, consciously "chose" not to wear the belt because they felt it was their right as a free citizen? Most of them feel rather stupid actually, if they're lucky enough to have survived.

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Its fairly simple, they save lives, nothing more nothing less. Want to live in the majority of accidents? then wear a seatbelt.


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I know appeal to experience is a fallacy of sorts, but I'd definitely recommend wearing it whenever you remember to. Got into a crash only going about 30-40km/h at age 19, and it hurt like hell because my left knee hit the panel. With seatbelt = no damage at all, but I was ignorant.

 

If you get into a crash at 60km/h+ speeds, it's almost certain you will be killed by the impact without a seatbelt. The only thing that can save you in that situation is good luck or a working airbag (older cars may not have them at all or like in my case, it did not pop out at all)

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I know appeal to experience is a fallacy of sorts, but I'd definitely recommend wearing it whenever you remember to. Got into a crash only going about 30-40km/h at age 19, and it hurt like hell because my left knee hit the panel. With seatbelt = no damage at all, but I was ignorant.

 

If you get into a crash at 60km/h+ speeds, it's almost certain you will be killed by the impact without a seatbelt. The only thing that can save you in that situation is good luck or a working airbag (older cars may not have them at all or like in my case, it did not pop out at all)

No, you hit the airbag to early and it blows up while you are hitting it instead of being cushoned, there therefore no belt + airbag = broken neck and ruined face.


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Ofcourse seatbelts should be compulsory, the whole "need to escape if you are in water" argument is completely stupid, it takes what 5 seconds to press the button to undo it? and situations like that are very rare. Whereas rear ended shunts, side collisions and head on collisions are much much more common, i.e. situations where with no seatbelt there is NOTHING to stop you being flung around the car into other passengers/ through the window if you have no belt on. I remember seeing something about how in a crash the people in the back had no belts on and their bodies ended up being sucked under the front seats, absolutely horrific.

 

dont even bring in the whole "freedom" argument - what about other passengers, other road users, your family and the poor person who has to scrape your body from the inside of the windscreen because you were too [bleep]ing lazy to put a belt on?

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However, not wearing a seatbelt causes serious injury. Serious injury = expensive rehabilitation = more tax dollars spent. It's really just being proactive.

 

(I realize not all countries have universal hc)

Even in countries without universal healthcare like the US, doesn't the state usually answer emergency calls like car accidents and the like?


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However, not wearing a seatbelt causes serious injury. Serious injury = expensive rehabilitation = more tax dollars spent. It's really just being proactive.

 

(I realize not all countries have universal hc)

Even in countries without universal healthcare like the US, doesn't the state usually answer emergency calls like car accidents and the like?

Yep, and it's their emergency services who have to indentify the dead bodies of ignorant [bleep]s who end up going through their windscreen when they could've spent a couple of seconds putting a belt on and ended up escaping with minor injuries.

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Btw, that "good link" looks like a pathetic conspiracy theory/libertarian nutcase website, I can't believe anyone takes it seriously.

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Btw, that "good link" looks like a pathetic conspiracy theory/libertarian nutcase website, I can't believe anyone takes it seriously.

 

What good link? :huh:


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Btw, that "good link" looks like a pathetic conspiracy theory/libertarian nutcase website, I can't believe anyone takes it seriously.

 

What good link? :huh:

The one Zierro posted in the OP.

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Btw, that "good link" looks like a pathetic conspiracy theory/libertarian nutcase website, I can't believe anyone takes it seriously.

 

You're obviously missing some pretty vital points then. The government has business in some aspects of society, but personal safety - which is their intentions for making seat belts and helmets mandatory - is the business of the individual. That's like making it illegal to eat to many hamburgers.

 

I pity a person who cannot see the beauty of exercising their own rights and freedoms. I'm not saying that people shouldn't wear seat belts. Hell, I even wear mine. I just think it's ridiculous to force it upon someone. It's your body and your property. And in the case of human projectiles, that is a rare exception, much like what you made of my arguments about being trapped in a car. Personally I've never seen or heard about someone killing another person because they didn't wear a seat belt, so I highly doubt it's a common occurrence.

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