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Eeeeediot

Tip.It Times: Jagex interfering?

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The Tip.It Times article quoted below has recently been posted to the main Tip.It website. Please take a few moments to read the article. Feel free to discuss it or post your opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex interfering?

 

 

 

The Editor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This week saw the unusual occurrence of Jagex directly requesting some fan sites to delay releasing a quest guide for the much hyped ME2 quest (MourningÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s Ends Part II). At the time of this article being published, two major fan sites have...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Click here to read the rest of this article.

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Ok... don't normally need to do this... but for this one, I think it could be needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PLEASE keep the discussion on this thread reasonable and curse-free :)


One-time #13 smither.

All-time #1 noob.

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Well, they could always make quest guides illegal. They don't always do this do they? If they did, then that would be bad, but since they worked hard on trying to really stump people, I thinks it's okay.


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I agree wholeheartedly. What is Jagex to say to a totally non-related website? They do not have control. I feel the pain of all those who worked so hard on the guide.

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However, you need to think: Jagex worked hard to make this quest challenging, and they don't want little "guide-noobs" doing it in a day...


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However, you need to think: Jagex worked hard to make this quest challenging, and they don't want little "guide-noobs" doing it in a day...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meh, I guess, but what's it to JaGex :P It's not like they'll make any more money off of it.


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I think we should let Jagex tell us what to do with our quest guides because they made the game and the quest that were get guided on!!

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Jagex does need to get involved with player organizations such as Fan sites and clans. They've even said they were going to be doing that, including the fan site thing (but they've been saying that for ages I believe).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do agree with the Tip.it Times on this one because it's always good to see websites get recognized for what they've been doing. Jagex should release information more directly to their communities. Clans aught to be recognized as being super powerful, Player made companies should be able to do some form of in-game advertising, there is so much that Jagex could do to improve it's customer relationships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really believe that Jagex needs to higher on some new hands, more web designers or customer support people. If they needed to raise their members price I say go ahead. I'd just play in monthly intervals only then. Go for a month and then off for a month, just so that during the next month I'd have plenty to do for that thirty days.

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This really is just plain sad and pathetic. At least send an E-mail requesting to hold off at least a week.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see their reasoning for not allowing 3rd party programs to be used in the game, but at least give recognition to the fan sites. If it wasn't for fansites, jagex would not be as big. No where on their site do they have quest help, skill tips, armor types/ac/price, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They need to pick up the ball and do something with it here.


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Well Eeeeediot, I see your point of view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many MMO game companies have stopped making these kinds of puzzle quests altogether, because they cost a lot of human resources to do well, and only a very small percentage of the playerbase is interested in actually solving them without a spoiler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, it is Jagex's intellectual property. I suppose they could go "hog wild" and try to ban all external fan sites that relate to their content, if they feel that their own site provides all the information that they wish to have available to their playerbase. I.E., in a worse case scenario, they could contact all the fansites' ISPs, and order them to remove material that references their copyrighted property. I'm not saying that this would be a smart move for Jagex, but then again, not all companies do smart things all the time. So I guess it could be worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Still, Tip.it has been here for ages, and is probably the most respected fansite, especially for users that have been around for 4+ years. I'm surprised (and saddened) that you guys don't already have high level regular contact with Jagex's top people (i.e. the Gowers, or their top underlings). If you don't by now, then I guess that doesn't bode well for the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were you, I'd be equally worried about the fact that any player who recommends Tip.it to another player, while within Runescape, is liable to be banned for advertizing other web sites. The fact that Tip.it and Jagex have never even negotiated such basic cooperative reciprocity (after so many years) is a sign of either way too little communication, or a fan site working hard based on a game company that tolerates them, but doesn't really want them around.

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Well my stance on the argument is that Jagex is in the wrong. I feel Jagex is in the wrong for the following reasons I have outlined below, reasons that have been touched on in the tip.it times and which I am sure most of you have contemplated further::

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Jagex has no right to ask websites not endorsed by them to refrain from posting anything, including quest guides. Sure, if the fansite was an official fansite, it would be a little more reasonable, but this is not the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. The quest in question is for members, ie. People who have paid Jagex in return for their services. Jagex have the right to seek compensation for their services (membership fees), but they do not have the right to tell customers how to use that service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, if you have a meal at a restaurant, the restaurant has the right to charge you for the meal, but not the right to tell you how to eat it. Likewise, Jagex have charged members for the availability and use of members quests, but they should not be able to tell members how to complete them. If somebody wants to use a guide to complete a quest, the only parties that can prevent them from or charge them for doing so are the authors of the guides and/or the sites that host them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is simply no reasonable way that Jagex can make using guides against the terms and conditions of memberships, because they will have a heck of a time getting sites not to post them, and subsequently members to stop reading them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With that might I offer my comendations on a great article this week, I'm sure we'll see more posts here than usual this time...

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Jagex asked the Tip.It crew to refrain from posting the guide. They did not threaten them to keep the information secret. Tip.It was the entity that decided to respect the request.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex obviously designed this quest to be difficult and fun. What the heck is fun about following a guide word by word?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In effect, using a guide is similar to cheating in this aspect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I have used guides before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think they could have at least contacted Tip.It through proper channels.


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I agree with Jagex, in that they have worked hard to make a hard quest and would like people to do it on thier own, but the fact that they wouldnt even email Tip.it but p[refered to pm them in game, is not right.


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1. Jagex has no right to ask websites not endorsed by them to refrain from posting anything, including quest guides. Sure, if the fansite was an official fansite, it would be a little more reasonable, but this is not the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, yes they can. The fan sites base their operation on the copyrighted intellectual property of Jagex, i.e. the rules, mechanics, and layout of Jagex's Runescape product. That being said, it is another question entirely to what extent these requests are enforceable, and how wise (or unwise) it would be for Jagex to pursue this course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. The quest in question is for members, ie. People who have paid Jagex in return for their services. Jagex have the right to seek compensation for their services (membership fees), but they do not have the right to tell customers how to use that service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, if you have a meal at a restaurant, the restaurant has the right to charge you for the meal, but not the right to tell you how to eat it. Likewise, Jagex have charged members for the availability and use of members quests, but they should not be able to tell members how to complete them. If somebody wants to use a guide to complete a quest, the only parties that can prevent them from or charge them for doing so are the authors of the guides and/or the sites that host them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, Jagex does have the right to tell even paying members how to use their service. They can try to restrict the way members complete a quest, if they feel it is in the game's (or general playerbase's) greater good. Heck, they can tell you how to do it, simply because they feel like it. There are no "bills of rights" for players, and consumer protection vs. EULAs and TOS is thus far a very murky area. That being said, it would be unwise for any company to embark on a path that risks angering their paying customers, obviously.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And restaurants can and do restrict how you may dress, where you may sit, and even enforce basic rules of civil conduct and table manners.

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i agree that jagex has no right in telling fan sites to hold up on a realese of a quest guide.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the one to elk that posted this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

elk

 

 

 

Bear Fur

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 27 Jan 2005

 

 

 

Posts: 457

 

 

 

Location: Wouldn't YOU like to know..........?Level:96\100

 

 

 

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:20 pm Post subject:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, you need to think: Jagex worked hard to make this quest challenging, and they don't want little "guide-noobs" doing it in a day...

 

 

 

_________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am a girl.

 

 

 

No, i will not be your girlfriend. Ever.

 

 

 

Rsn:Tsukasa//x12

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

how do u know andrew, did u just edit a picture and do that, becuse don't British ppl say briefs not boxers


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F2p ftw, been at it for 5+ years now, and still needing bank space

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To the guy above me, "breifs" are tighty-whiteys, even us American people know that, and "boxers" are the kind of underpants that are like shorts, but different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, onward to the article!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I beleive that Jagex has every right to ask the fansites not to post the guide. It's perfectly acceptable, I've played games where they ban the use of all gudes for all quests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The manner that they used to ask the fansites not to post it is unacceptable. You'd think they could be a little more professional, maybe e-mail some people who run the fansites, but no. They have to contact them in game. This is totally unprofessional. I mean, they're a professional company. Maybe they thought this was the best way, but...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know. All I know is I'm a little ticked off about this, why Jagex can't get their act together and be a little more professional about things.

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I think this is a legitimate request from Jagex, all they asked you to was "refrain" from posting guides, so maybe after a while you can make one, I don't see how this simple request can get you so ticked off. I personally kill myself by taking all the fun out of quests and look at your guides, but I can't help myself.

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I do think the request is somewhat out of line for JAGeX, but they are perfectly allowed to request whatever they what of whomever they wish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tip.it is also at liberty to honor or deny that request. I'm sure they have their reasons for honoring the request, and from the reasons I've heard on the forums I don't have a problem with them doing so. There is something to be said for respect amongst peers, although I feel tip.it has shown much more respect to JAGeX in this matter than vice verse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fundamental problem with JAGeX's complaint on "guide noobs" is that any problem with a single unique solution is going to be "guidable." That is, any puzzle that can be solved in exactly the same way by many people is liable to have a guide written about it. This is why people hate puzzle boxes so much because even if you know the goal, there's not really a guide for getting there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion: JAGeX needs to implement more puzzles that can be randomized for each player, like the slide puzzles. Things like "Lights out", "Rubik's Cube", and many other similar puzzles could easily be implemented and bypass the guiding problem.

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coudlnt disagree more

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

being one of the first to write a guide on the forums i did so reluctantly

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the complexity of this quest was shier genious... they probably had to fix and refix it over the last 4 weeks constantly which is why it was so delayed... asking for a weeks delay isnt that bad of a request... yes jagexs out of game comunity support does leave a lot to be desired

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but the ovious scope of work that went into the quest..... im wishing i never even wrote a guide for it. its realy one of them things people should atempt them selfs. im not a big fan of quests guides. over the last 4-5 years i have atempted to to every quest as it came out to prevent the naggin temptation to look at one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to relese a guide immidiatly would shatter there hard work. as i said i was sorly tempted to edit out my huridly scribbled guide on the quest fourms... and as quest guides were against the rules im suprised it was even alowed to stay there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and unreasonable request? no

 

 

 

un profetional? not realy. in bug buisniss it pays to have a quite word in the right ears

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

however do they neglect there comunity from a outgame basis? defenatly

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Thanks for following up the discussion, blackrazor. I do agree that fansites do make use of copyrighted intellectual property to increase their traffic and hence their income, but not to the point that it infringes on the copyright itself. A quest guide offers solutions to a quest within the rules, mechanics and layout of runescape, but not by directly altering the rules and mechanics. That is why things like hacks, cracks, trainers etc can lead you to being banned, but using guides cannot; these things do alter Jagex's copyrighted runescape product. Guides do not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for my opinions on Jagex restricting the way we finish quests, I do agree that they can directly influence the way a quest is complete, within their runescape product. But unless they seek legal action to have all websites remove quest related guides (however futile such action may be), they have no way to stop members using guides to complete members quests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that I may not have been specific enough with my restaurant example; sure they can enforce your conduct and dress (just as Jagex can forcibly censor cursing and swearing), but if you ordered a chinese dish I'm sure they would not tell you to eat with chopsticks and not a fork or spoon if you wanted to. Maybe if it was at a boutique establishment that charged much higher rates you could expect certain restrictions, but at $5-20 per month depending on your location and subscription method, I don't see runescape membership falling into that category. Personally, I don't see Jagex wanting to conduct runescape in such a manner either. But then again, who knows these days??

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i cant wait until they finaly gain the ability to dynamicaly generate chalanges for quests withing certain bounderies. that do not fall under strick catogries such as 10 different posibilitys that can be maped and recored but limitless posibilitys. the people who put time effort (and 30 prayer pots) into compleating that quest deserve the reward... how ever lame it happened to be (20k agil and a death talli >_< GITS)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a guide is no better than a cheat. u woudlnt expect ur lvls to be put to 99 withough working on them, so why should u expect quest bonuses whithough working on the quest

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and as i stated before. as this wasnt a demand it was a request. a quite word in the rite ears in game. the impersonal approach was imo a good idea. better than sending a letter making it sound official and mroe like they were demanding tip.it didnt host a guide...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and as i said before.... its a week. big deal

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I agree. Either Jagex announces it specifically in their posted rules or they let the customers, who pay, do what they want. Jagex is being annoying with their grey rules and silent requests. Everyone is confused on the various issues which sometimes even Jagex as a team can't come to a single position on, so fansites and players have to guess what is right or wrong.


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I'd just like to point out one thing to the editor...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...They can significantly improve their own official forums by improving its layout, functionality and usability. A search feature would be invaluable...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They have one, there is a link on the top right on the forum index page (and only there).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do admit, its an awful search feature... you MUST chose which forum to search, and the search feature is only accessable from the main index, as i just said... but atleast its something. The fact that all posts are deleted once they break page 50 also compounds the matter... if u are looking for an old post its likely to be gone. :x


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Well I know you must have found out by now, that Jagex is planning a "official site" list to add to there site.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(A DIRECT quote from runescape.com)

 

 

 

"Is it possible to get a link on RuneScape.com?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not at the moment. However we are looking into a system which will allow us to give the best fan sites an "official fan site" classification. Sites that gain this classification will be allowed to show an official graphic as well as having a link to their site from RuneScape.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We do not have a date yet as to when this will be happening, so please DO NOT email us in regards to one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What we can tell you now is that when we do go ahead with this system Jagex will handpick "official" fan sites and we will contact you if we would like your site to receive an official acceptance. Please do not contact us regarding becoming an "official" fan site. Just concentrate on making your fan site high in quality and you will be doing your best to become accepted."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what many MMO's have, and now are having with there relese. I beleive that Jagex should turn its control over, yes as it is right now Jagex has near complete control over the comunities and fan sites (as they ban those who say the site... even if you ask!!!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is VERY absurd! Jagex should never try to ban all sites and adresses! (heh, they do say you can tell others your aim, mim, or yim, ingame :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They beleive this will (supposedly) reduse the risk of being hacked out of a password. They give no help at all (eh, they could say, "ZoneAlarm, Norton, ect... will help protect and remove you spy wares and viruses"

 

 

 

but no, they are ignorant to there own rules and regulations that are now bordering beuracratic...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact is however quite different, as many players have no where to turn, no "###.#####.### is safe", they must turn to anyone, a high lev or low, for advise on where to go for a clan, a fan site, or guides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thing that may hold them back is making official info that they do not wish to be official (such as runehq's price guide... some think that this is the REAL prices of rs, and forget those who sell, and those who buy, determine the prices...) making info such as this "official" would make there numbers carry even more wieght, thusly making them in control of a large contigency of the "RS echenomy".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex HAS to see that this is not a daunting task, they do know the sites, this is easily evendent! Also they know what they want, and what they don't... but Jagex Ltd. has never been one to let there control (in any way) stray far from the creater. (Lol, they even have there many workers developers ect. work in there city... where they connect to the internet, to develop or do coustomer support... online)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not trying to bash RS, they have done much good, but in one of the greatest aspects of MMO's (the community...) they are failing miserably.

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