Tip.it Times 8 November 2009

[n_odie]

Tip.it Times is here! We were going to take this week off, but Ts_Stormrage graciously provided us with an article for your reading pleasure.

 

We are still trying to recover from last weeks zombie attack, little did we know stormage would be revived so quickly. :o

 

Take a look at this week's article here: Tip.it Times

[Diomedus]

First post? ok yes

 

I agree, free players are getting screwed, it's pretty hard to work your way up if you don't know what to do (i personally dont either, besides 76king or merch clans, i do not know how to get gross amounts of money)

 

i don't really want a new skill for a money sink, but maybe some high level shop items that you can't get another way?

 

Look at the dragon square shield, the right half costs 750k in a shop but the ge sells whole thing for like 300,000 ish

[dv_trainer]

Solid article, but did it have the strength to compete by itself?

[Diomedus]

i was wondering about that too, but then i saw the thing that they were going to take the week off.

[Troacctid]

I really see no reason to un-split rune and pure essence. What were the negative effects of the original split? It [cabbage]ed up the economy. That's it. And now the economy is perfectly stable once more--there is no shortage in supply or demand for either rune or pure essence. Runecrafters didn't lose money from it because rune prices changed to reflect the essence prices.

 

What would be accomplished by merging them again? Nothing, except to re-[cabbage]-up the economy. The only thing affected would be price. Rune essence would change in price. Runes would change in price. Goods related to magic, like air orbs and common alchables, would change in price. Why is that necessary? All of those things are already at stable equilibrium prices. Runecrafters and mages aren't necessarily going to gain or lose money because again, the prices of runes will adjust to the new levels of supply and demand.

 

And it's not as if runecrafting is dying out. It's still the game's top moneymaking skill. Nothing is broken here. Trying to "fix" the nonexistent problem would have no net positive effect anywhere. Any money gained by f2p essence miners is lost by f2p runecrafters; any money gained by p2p runecrafters is lost by p2p essence miners and mages.

 

Cons:

-[cabbage]s up the economy

 

Pros:

-None

[Dirkmetal]

Monty Python reference ftw?

 

I'm still waiting for the majority of Runecape to realize how easy it will be to circumvent the anti-76k thing. Their slow, give them time.

[Zachneap]

Imo, runecrafting as a whole needs an overhaul.

[PereGrin]

I am not sure I like the idea of joining f2p and p2p runecrafting again. But that seems to already be covered. Good article.

[Aneron]

Interesting, makes me happy that the 76king update was successful. Personally I would be willing to accept more stringent measures to make sure that people have to work to earn their keep.

 

I don't mind the current inflation though. Training skills is more expensive, and earning money is faster. So all the numbers are bigger, huge deal.

 

First post? ok yes

 

I agree, free players are getting screwed, it's pretty hard to work your way up if you don't know what to do (i personally dont either, besides 76king or merch clans, i do not know how to get gross amounts of money)

 

i don't really want a new skill for a money sink, but maybe some high level shop items that you can't get another way?

 

Look at the dragon square shield, the right half costs 750k in a shop but the ge sells whole thing for like 300,000 ish

 

Have you thought about that at all? There is barrows, runecrafting, god wars, dag kings, tormented demons, killing dragons, killing spiritual mages, killing abyssal demons, buying items from NPC stores cheaply and selling them on the GE, farming herbs, (all of these are over 500k/hr), mining pure ess...

 

Of course, none of these activities are F2P. However, I believe that the most expensive non-discontinued F2p item is the corrupt dragon battleaxe at 2.7m, which should be manageable for f2pers forced to kill cockroaches or whatever they do.

[Sir_Squab]

First post? ok yes

 

I agree, free players are getting screwed, it's pretty hard to work your way up if you don't know what to do (i personally dont either, besides 76king or merch clans, i do not know how to get gross amounts of money)

 

i don't really want a new skill for a money sink, but maybe some high level shop items that you can't get another way?

 

Look at the dragon square shield, the right half costs 750k in a shop but the ge sells whole thing for like 300,000 ish

 

That's because legends quest was released decades ago (ok, not quite, but still) and since then, there are now enough dragon squares in the economy to match the demand for them. Plus, there are much better shields like the dragon fire shield, blessed spirit shield, and the other spirit shields and 3rd age if you can get your hands on it.

 

Monty Python reference ftw?

 

I'm still waiting for the majority of Runecape to realize how easy it will be to circumvent the anti-76k thing. Their slow, give them time.

 

Do YOU know how easy it will be to circumvent the anti-76k thing? I doubt it. How hard it will be is a factor of how complicated the measures are. This is made even more difficult because Jagex didn't tell us what their measures ARE. Which, at least in this case, is a good thing.

 

Article itself...

 

I do agree. 76k'ing is gone (even if people find a way around it, with 76k'ing clans and such, it won't come back to full strength) but we still have the inflation problem. What we need is for Jagex to realize the problem; I'm not sure they've realized it yet.

[magib1]

The first question that popped into my mind when the whole pvp/effects on the economy issue came to light is why doesn't Jagex just make it so that the drop you receive from whoever you kill can be no greater than the amount of risked wealth they are carrying? That's how it was in the old wildy and doing it would still keep the autoers/real world traders out of business because drops could still be of lesser value than the amount carried.

 

If you still wanted an incentive to be available then why not make it so that the only people that you can get drops that are greater than their total risked wealth from are targets in bounty worlds? And if this was done you could speed up the rate at which bounties are acquired...

 

Anyways I like the follow-up article but like others I don't really see the point in consolidating the essence again...

[aspeeder]

The first question that popped into my mind when the whole pvp/effects on the economy issue came to light is why doesn't Jagex just make it so that the drop you receive from whoever you kill can be no greater than the amount of risked wealth they are carrying? That's how it was in the old wildy and doing it would still keep the autoers/real world traders out of business because drops could still be of lesser value than the amount carried.

 

If you still wanted an incentive to be available then why not make it so that the only people that you can get drops that are greater than their total risked wealth from are targets in bounty worlds? And if this was done you could speed up the rate at which bounties are acquired...

 

Anyways I like the follow-up article but like others I don't really see the point in consolidating the essence again...

Maybe as a bit of an incentive only allow the drops to be 110% of what the victim was carrying, that would would only mean 7.6k profit max for 76king, and it could easily be worth less than that most of the time. I think that JaGeX needs to make the drops reasonable and non-damaging, but still fairly random in nature.

[VedicScripts]

I can't agree with you.

 

PvP was basically stripped down, re-built from the ground-up, stripped down again, re-built again, then got added with a new addition.

 

While I am in support of the anti-76k measures taken, I cannot agree with any further action.

 

Originally the problem was 76kers and now it's the loot system as a whole.

 

I can't help but feel a spark of jealousy from all of you who can't actually PK and want their game to be stripped down again.

[greecl]

:wink: :rolleyes: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: wow stormage, your writing is just amazing! it was entertaining, informative, and managed to address a problem without blasting jagex for screwing everything up. and personally, jagex did something great by fixing the 76k system. the next step, i would think, is to nix the statuettes and stuff you get from pvp, or to introduce a new skill like summoning. i want to say that jagex said they were a month or two ago, right?

 

anyway, absolutely great article!!!!!!! =D>

[Ts_Stormrage]

You're going to want to read this post, it explains a lot...

 

I can't agree with you.

 

PvP was basically stripped down, re-built from the ground-up, stripped down again, re-built again, then got added with a new addition.

 

While I am in support of the anti-76k measures taken, I cannot agree with any further action.

 

Originally the problem was 76kers and now it's the loot system as a whole.

 

I can't help but feel a spark of jealousy from all of you who can't actually PK and want their game to be stripped down again.

 

I have actually ranted about the statues in an article the very same week that PVP drops were changed to statues... I still believe that you should not get pure cash (which it really is) from PVP. And if you look back at my article of the 18th of october, particularly Proposal 1, you will see that under my proposed system, rewards would yield the same amount of GP for the PVP-ers, without actually adding GP to the economy...

 

People seem to not completely grasp the whole concept, and I think I am partly to blame. But you should not view the proposals seperately, but as a whole... And while Proposal 1 pretty much stops the massive influx of GP in the economy, prices are hitting their maximum caps, meaning that inflation is getting as far out of control as Jagex allowed for the GE... Soon, Swordfish will be sold on the streets for far more then the GE's 500gp

 

 

As for my proposal to overturn the Rune Essence update, I'll detail it in steps what would happen if all the additional ideas were implemented...

First, the announcement is made that for every Pure Essence, you'll soon have 3 Rune Essence in your bank (which is their rough price comparisson), and every GOP token will from then on get you 3 Rune Essence on both F2P and P2P, all this will happen in 2 weeks time...

Then people will buy them up until Pure Essence is worth more then 3 times the worth of Rune Essence...

Once the update happens, and Chaos Runes are now craftable in F2P, and there is no more Pure Essence anywhere in the game (not dropped or mined), a lot of people on F2P will start to mine Rune Essence or play the GOP game as a main money maker, because it is faster then cutting yews or mining gold ore...

 

Why do we do this?

First and foremost; It would be nice to see Jagex undo a mistake of theirs with completely undoing an update without harming anyone... It would show that they can admit when they are wrong, and that they can (un)do something without ruining the game even further...

Second reason is that, in the original article, I explained how making RuneCrafting cheaper, makes pretty much everything cheaper. Because cheaper Nature Runes makes for cheaper Alching... Do not forget that Alching is the main driving force behind a skill-based and XP-based economy like RuneScape always has been, which makes the PVP money maker seem less atractive...

Third, Rune Essence will, once this proposed update to the Essence as well as having our personal Shops stocked back up to pre-infinite-stock levels has happened, largely be mined on F2P. This means that P2P (where 90% of all money and value is) is going to funnel a LOT of cash into F2P, basicly spreading some of that wealth potentially from ~1 million to ~12 million (this fights inflation too, because F2P buys more things from stores then P2P does)...

 

Is Chaos crafting not fast enough to be a profitable way to level RuneCrafting on F2P? Make the Quest "What Lies Below..." F2P too, they can even keep the Beacon Ring afterwards, so mages have something too...

 

 

All this while, as thoroughly explained, noone gets harmed in the process...

 

 

Some relevant links;

What Lies Below - Questguide

The Times article on which this one is a follow-up, contains the original proposals

Bost articles and replies on the Official Forums of RuneScape itself

[Zachneap]

But if alching is made into a good money maker won't that keep all that gp in the economy?

[sees_all1]

My biggest problem with your article is this right here:

We're still heading towards an economy with over-inflated prices kept aloft by the billions of GP earned in PVP worlds. And this ultimately ruins the game for newcomers.

TS, [sarcasm]I believe every GP should be worth one million GP, that way people won't be poor anymore.[/sarcasm]

But in all seriousness, that's what inflation is.

 

I suggest you read up on monetary neutrality.

I hope you can understand why it doesn't matter if a shrimp costs 20, 50, or 500 gp (or whatever the item low levels need), so long as it reflects the current price level.

 

I believe the problem with PVP is not, and was never in 76king, it was the definition of risk and EP.

 

If you want to see my suggestion for "fixing" this, it can be found here.

If you want to discuss the runescape economy, please contribute to this thread

I'll probably be posting more stuff on it within the next couple of days.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Your argument would stand if certain prices werent bound by their alch value or by their price caps... And seeing that these items are certainly popular, they make a huge difference... Moreover, we live in an economy with continuous inflation that gets further and further out of control, meaning that coins themselves become the proverbial hot potato, which increases demand for items even further...

 

We're not talking about inflation anymore, we're talking about hyper-inflation... And it takes place at a speed that newcomers to the game cannot keep up with... I have already illustrated this to you by comparing inflation on high level items compared to consumables that everyone can get...

 

Also, once more explained; you can earn roughly 5 million on average on PVP worlds in 2 hours... Consider a common skilling money maker, like alching yew longbows, you need 6500 of them, all built entirely from scratch right down to your own flax picked, logs cut, and essence mined... This is completely out of sync with one another...

 

For the nitpickers out there, I am not suggesting that we should make PVP a money maker that is as fast as alching, I am highlighting here how fast PVP brings money into the game compared to alching...

Hence Proposal 1; PVP would still earn large amounts of money, without bringing extra GP into the economy...

[sees_all1]

Your argument would stand if certain prices werent bound by their alch value or by their price caps... And seeing that these items are certainly popular, they make a huge difference... Moreover, we live in an economy with continuous inflation that gets further and further out of control, meaning that coins themselves become the proverbial hot potato, which increases demand for items even further...

TS, items that are bound by alching have a price floor. Inflation means that prices go up, so a price floor does not affect items with inflation in any way.

Second of all, could it be possible that instead of inflation, its an increase in demand on items with price caps?

For instance, swordfish have a price cap of 500 each. Strength potions have a price cape of 1820 each. Could these items be these prices simply because more people want to PK, and not because the value of gp has gone down?

 

We're not talking about inflation anymore, we're talking about hyper-inflation... And it takes place at a speed that newcomers to the game cannot keep up with... I have already illustrated this to you by comparing inflation on high level items compared to consumables that everyone can get...

Are you saying that inflation affects different items in different ways? If so, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Inflation is defined as an increase in the money supply, the GP's price goes down while everything else's price goes up. If its not uniform, its not pure inflation.

 

Also, once more explained; you can earn roughly 5 million on average on PVP worlds in 2 hours... Consider a common skilling money maker, like alching yew longbows, you need 6500 of them, all built entirely from scratch right down to your own flax picked, logs cut, and essence mined... This is completely out of sync with one another...

Then the problem isn't inflation, its PVP worlds.

 

Also, I know of very few players who use skilling as their primary money making method. Skillers use skilling as their primary money making method. That's a choice they made long ago, and wear it with pride. Being able to say, "I have never purchase XP, ever". Its the same thing you'll get from any high level pure F2P - "I have never purchased membership, all my XP was earned the hard way." That's fine, but don't get into a hissy fit when others find easier methods earning money or XP, when you refuse to change.

 

TS, you must recognize that with every update, supplies and demands change for different items. This includes new methods for making money to surface, and old methods to become less popular.

The more you write, the more I'm beginning to think that the only players change negatively affects are those too stubborn or stupid to change their ways.

 

TS, learn macroeconomics.

You may not want to hear it, but unless you know exactly how many GPs are in game, and exactly the value of ALL the items in game, its impossible to know and track inflation for sure.

There are different ways to track it though, including putting together baskets of items, tracking the price, and then calculating the deflator.

All you've done is say "There is hyper-inflation". Quit making bull claims about an economy you know nothing about.

[Sir_Squab]

If you ask me, you don't need advanced economic studies to realize that PVP generates a lot of GP to put in the economy. And on general principle, mass inflation does nothing but make some people poor.

[Ts_Stormrage]

TS, items that are bound by alching have a price floor. Inflation means that prices go up, so a price floor does not affect items with inflation in any way.

Idiot, you know damn well that I meant that, items that are bound by alch values (such as yew longbows) will not rise much further then their alch value + value of a nature rune... This does not only go for such items but also all of their raw materials...

 

Second of all, could it be possible that instead of inflation, its an increase in demand on items with price caps?

For instance, swordfish have a price cap of 500 each. Strength potions have a price cape of 1820 each. Could these items be these prices simply because more people want to PK, and not because the value of gp has gone down?

Thank you for highlighting the problem...

 

The whole time I have been going on about how PVP is too good of a GP spawn... More and more people flock to this, which indeed makes some of the items you mentioned rise in price... My issue is not only with the massive amounts of GP created, but also that PVP is the only way to go, which in turn hurts the grand variety that RuneScape once used to be...

 

 

Are you saying that inflation affects different items in different ways? If so, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Inflation is defined as an increase in the money supply, the GP's price goes down while everything else's price goes up. If its not uniform, its not pure inflation.

 

I have a firm grasp of what I am talking about thank you... I have explained why inflation affects certain items in certain ways (price caps, alch values, shop prices, popularity, etc), and you use this as an argument to point out to me how I havent a clue of what I am talking about? please, I hope the rest of your post provides soemthing of an intellectual challenge based on actual facts rather then trying to poke holes in semantics...

 

Then the problem isn't inflation, its PVP worlds.

 

Isnt that what I have been saying? My god have you even read ANYTHING at all of the recent articles? Inflation, yes, its a huge problem, but the CAUSE is the pure GP drops on PVP worlds...

 

Also, I know of very few players who use skilling as their primary money making method. Skillers use skilling as their primary money making method. That's a choice they made long ago, and wear it with pride. Being able to say, "I have never purchase XP, ever". Its the same thing you'll get from any high level pure F2P - "I have never purchased membership, all my XP was earned the hard way." That's fine, but don't get into a hissy fit when others find easier methods earning money or XP, when you refuse to change.

 

The fact that you dont know them doesnt mean anything, more over, the number of skillers drops every day as PVP worlds are more of an attractive money maker... For soem reason though you see it black and white, as there are skillers who are all DIY, and people who skill because they know it is a reliable way of moneymaking (at least it used to be)... You say people shouldnt throw a fit when they refuse to change, but this comes back once again that the balace in this game is lost... PVP worlds are a FAR too easy a way of making money compared to everything else...

 

TS, you must recognize that with every update, supplies and demands change for different items. This includes new methods for making money to surface, and old methods to become less popular.

The more you write, the more I'm beginning to think that the only players change negatively affects are those too stubborn or stupid to change their ways.

 

Obviously you do not know me nor comprehend the vast impact that the changes made in mid-June have had... I dont mind PVP being a money maker... I mind it being a VASTLY SUPERIOR money maker compared to the previous ones (GWD, Slayer, etc)

 

TS, learn macroeconomics.

You may not want to hear it, but unless you know exactly how many GPs are in game, and exactly the value of ALL the items in game, its impossible to know and track inflation for sure.

There are different ways to track it though, including putting together baskets of items, tracking the price, and then calculating the deflator.

All you've done is say "There is hyper-inflation". Quit making bull claims about an economy you know nothing about.

 

Fortunately, RuneScape wiki is doign this FOR me... And they have proven me right so far... 40% increase on average, in vastly popular AND consumable items, hal fof which are bound (as previously explained) by the alch values of the items themselves or the finished product...

 

So far, you havent come up with any cold hard facts to prove me wrong, while I have been proven right time and again... This says I know more about RuneScape's economy then you, which means my claims (which arent claims, but are really just conslusions of a sum of facts) are not bull...

Your entire post is, though...

 

Now mr ignores_all,back your claim that I know nothing about what is happening up by proving me wrong... Either that or get the [bleep] off of this thread...

[sees_all1]

I agree that the PVP system is broken, but not because of the drop tables, but because of the definition of earned potential.

I agree that there should not be price caps or floors of any item on the GE, because it prevents liquidity, and free trade from happening.

 

But I believe its unreasonable to think that the reason PVP needs to be fixed is simply to stop inflation. I also believe that people who think inflation is inherently bad do not understand economics enough to realize that it doesn't matter what money is valued. I also believe that trying to attribute prices of "certain" items solely to inflation is ridiculous.

 

I would say that a market equilibrium of all items will not happen over night, or even in a month. Prices right now are readjusting because of market forces, and not purely because of inflation.

 

 

I'd also appreciate it if you would stop attacking me personally for disagreeing with you. I haven't ignored any of what you've written, which is why I'm sticking you on several key points.

Before you try to belittle me I want you to tell me, in your own words, what you think inflation is.

 

I'm sorry TS, but I'm not going anywhere.

 

If you ask me, you don't need advanced economic studies to realize that PVP generates a lot of GP to put in the economy. And on general principle, mass inflation does nothing but make some people poor.

That isn't what I'm arguing about.

Also, if the majority of your wealth is in GP, then yes, inflation makes you "poor" in the sense that you have less purchasing power. Otherwise, it doesn't make a difference.

[TheIceMagics]

As usual, my commendations to TS Stormrage for an article I know was written the night before but definitely doesn't fall below the usual standards of "near-perfect". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Titanic may have actually avoided the iceberg had she simply turned rather than put the engines in reverse, as putting them in reverse hampered her turning ability. At least, I heard that somewhere. However, at the end of the day I'm nit-picking over what was as usual a very thought-provoking piece. I make it TS Stormrage 2 - 0 Jagex? Only time will tell...

[Ts_Stormrage]

In my humble opinion;

 

Inflation, in RuneScape, is prices continuously going up, without some sort of stability being reached in the foreseeable future, all due to there being more GP created then destroyed, on average, per player over any length of time...

 

The massive influx of GP (which the statues on PVP worlds are largely responsible for) causes prices of everything to be driven up far more rapidly then any other supply-demand effect would have...

The reasons why some items are not rising as fast as others is something I have detailed already...

 

You said its a bad idea to fix PVP just to fight inflation... Since when is it a bad idea to undo a mistake? Check the price graphs of some random items, especially around mid-June... PVP drops not the cause of inflation? I beg to differ, and I have proposed a solution that would not harm the earnings on PVP but still cuts off the massive influx of GP... Proposal 1 of my article that was posted on the 18th of last month...

 

Market equilibriums happen very fast these days in RuneScape, even with the 5% limit... Just check any update made to the game that has affected prices of an item, and how fast the prices stabilized, but check them before the 15th of June...

 

You're right that if you do not have GP but convert it all into items, you do not lose Purchasing Power... Sad thing is, you cannot use items buy other items from the GE... In your world we might as well get rid of GP and the GE...

 

Thanks there, mr Ice, but lets save the Titanic debate for mIRC :) But you're half right about the current score... Remember that I warned about the whole situation we're currently in a week after the statues update... So it's really 3-0... Good for Jagex is that they can, by implementing Porposal 1, make it game set and match for them :)

[decebal]

Hey TS... quick little thing: F2P Runecrafting IS profitable, and changing it to Pure Essense WILL screw everything over.

 

Just put it this way: besides rune ore, merching and pvping (including 76king/ 26king), the best 3 F2P money makerr are:

 

Gold Ore (as a lvl 75 miner, I found out at the Crafting Guild it's 75k/hour)

Addy Ore at Hob mine (Not sure about this one... but if you try another spot like Crandor, it goes down to 60k/hour)

 

And....

 

Air crafting using GOP.

 

If you play through a 50/50 game, then use the rune essence you get from the games on airs or waters, and the points on air tele tabs and rune essence, then craft airs by teleing to Air Altar, then teling to Fally, you can make you around the same as gold ore.

 

But, with no pure ess, rune ess will spike up significantly, making you to lose a huge chunk of your profit. Also Rune ess requires NO SKILL to mine, so you'd have an extremely overpowered F2P money maker.