17th November 2009 - Potions, Spells and Runes

[Mordendravid]

Having spent some time thinking about this, the RC update doesn't actually make a lot of sense in the context that Jagex announced it... "New magic update, therefore you'll need more runes, therefore we've made multiple runes more easily obtainable"

 

The new spells use Death and Blood runes (neither of which can be crafted in multiples at any RC level) and elemental runes. The only runes that the RC update affects therefore are the elemental runes; the source for elemental runes is generally: F2P runecrafters or monster drops, very few P2P runecrafters will craft elemental runes as the profit is better crafting 1 nat per ess, than 2 fires or even 3 waters.

 

The only runes that are crafted in multiples that are worth it are: Chaos (barely), cosmics, astrals and nats. None of which are relevant to the new mage update. All the RC update has done is take the gloss off of attaining lvl 82 and of course 91.

 

Had they made deaths and/or bloods craftable in multiples at say 95 and 99 RC then that would have been a much more relevant update, and indeed provide a further high level update to another skill (something that Jagex have stated they are focusing on).

[Jon Arcane]

I think ive found the curve they were talking about with the double runes.

 

If the rise in % is the same all the way between the levels for the double runes, you will have about 2,13% chance of getting double natures at 45 runecrafting.

At 50, you would have 12,78% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 60, you would have 34,08% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 70, you would have 55,38% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 80, you would have 76,68% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 90, you would have 97,98% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 91, you would have 100,11% chance of getting double nature runes. (Ignore the ,11. It was in my formula :P)

 

This is only if there is a set amount which increases by the same amount every level though.

If this were to continue, this would be how triple nats would look:

 

92 - 2,13% chance of triple nats.

93 - 4,26% chance of triple nats.

94 - 6,39% chance of triple nats.

95 - 8,52% chance of triple nats.

96 - 10,65% chance of triple nats.

97 - 12,78% chance of triple nats.

98 - 14,91% chance of triple nats.

99 - 17,04% chance of triple nats.

100 - 19,17% chance of triple nats.

 

Just to throw this in, I did a trip to the nature altar. I'm going to compare it to Astral crafting a bit later, hence why I dismissed the Spirit Graahk earlier:

 

I have 90 Runecrafting

I was holding 54 pure essence per inventory.

Crafting between 80 (lowest recorded) to 95 (highest recorded) of nature runes per run. With the majority of those trips being under 87 runes.

In 41 minutes of Nature Rune crafting I produced 2734 Nature Runes.

 

I have no idea if that's helpful for anyone, but it's there. Setting myself up now to do an Astral rune crafting trip, but i'll start it in the next hour.

 

Want to personally see for myself which one is currently better for me, or if I should just go back to the ZMI altar.

[Den]

I think ive found the curve they were talking about with the double runes.

 

If the rise in % is the same all the way between the levels for the double runes, you will have about 2,13% chance of getting double natures at 45 runecrafting.

At 50, you would have 12,78% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 60, you would have 34,08% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 70, you would have 55,38% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 80, you would have 76,68% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 90, you would have 97,98% chance of getting double nature runes.

At 91, you would have 100,11% chance of getting double nature runes. (Ignore the ,11. It was in my formula :P)

 

This is only if there is a set amount which increases by the same amount every level though.

If this were to continue, this would be how triple nats would look:

 

92 - 2,13% chance of triple nats.

93 - 4,26% chance of triple nats.

94 - 6,39% chance of triple nats.

95 - 8,52% chance of triple nats.

96 - 10,65% chance of triple nats.

97 - 12,78% chance of triple nats.

98 - 14,91% chance of triple nats.

99 - 17,04% chance of triple nats.

100 - 19,17% chance of triple nats.

 

You're assuming a linear cure by level.

I think this is totally wrong, it'd make more sense if it was an exponential curve by experience :)

 

Yeah, said I was using a linear curve in the post. ;) (I just didnt use the word linear.)

Best way to get the correct info is to test it, or see if the knowledge base has anything.

[Racheya]

Just for a few facts, at level 66, I got about 1.3 natures per essence over an average of about 5 runs.

[Zepheras]

You should be able to mine better ores at better levels, but mine them faster than before. Or fish better fish at higher levels, but get the fish faster at higher levels.

 

Oh right, we already have that.

[king_muumuu]

The change in runecrafting is going by the right logic - in 44 you already gain the ability to make nature runes - 91 just make it producing more. so instead of the improving getting at once, over 5m xp later, you get it by steps till 91 - in a going up graph. if you fit to it the "wrong slayer case" then you get runecrafting natures before 44.

 

Yes, you and metoo1000 are right. What I meant to say with my Slayer post is how it would be if the game was LOGICAL (I like this word alot if you may have noticed), but it is not. Considering real life, let's say you're a novice hunter and begin hunting elks. Those things are huge and slow, so they're an easy target and you hit them very often with your rifle. Now, try to hunt ducks that are flying above. You will be extremely terrible at hitting them, but that does NOT mean you will NEVER hit them. You will just be very inneficient and waste alot of bullets for each duck hunted, but you are still able to hunt them... As you practice on elks more, your aiming improves, and when you decide to hunt ducks again you could possibly hit them all the time.

This is how RS would work if it were logical, but it is not, you cannot hunt red chinchompas AT ALL until you hit the level, not hunt them very poorly like would happen if RS was like real life. In the context of RS, your idea of being able to slay the monsters better if you're above their required level, or get better drops, is really good.

[Everyonedies]

Should I be able to mine rune at lower levels as well? What about fishing sharks and cutting magic trees? Why can't I attempt to cook a shark at 70 Cooking or weild an abyssal whip at 65 attack? Runescape doesn't work like that.

Your thinking about it wrong... Think about it like this(and for the most part it holds true) At the level when you can first start doing something its like your just barely able to do it.. ie cooking foods, agility obsticals,theiving, wood cutting, fishing,farming(if not paying the farmer to watch). It doesnt hold true for processing skills like crafting, smithing, fletching,summoning, slayer. But for these skills think about it more like when you have proved yourself worthy to be enlightened about new items to make the kowledge is given to you.(the game doesnt make it feel this way but you can think about it in this way)

[Kersei]

 

 

There is absolutely NO reason that there will be more people crafting Astrals.

The only reasonable thing that will happen will be that some of the higher level crafters, previously doing astrals, will be moving onto natures. Only talking about the 88-89-90 crafters (depending on nature's probability ofcourse).

So the only change in amount of astrals daily crafted will be a decrease, meaning that price will go up when demand stays the same, which, at the moment, probably will...

 

Actually there is, if nats fall lower than astrals, then people will craft more astrals.

 

No, no and no.

 

Currently, everyone interested in making money from Rc that is between 82 and 91 rc, will make astrals.

So, why would there be more people making astrals at once?

 

You, my friend, are making no point with how you see it :)

 

Why, because if nats drop low enough, then more people will craft astrals.

[Awkward Talking Fish]

Your thinking about it wrong... Think about it like this(and for the most part it holds true) At the level when you can first start doing something its like your just barely able to do it.. ie cooking foods, agility obsticals,theiving, wood cutting, fishing,farming(if not paying the farmer to watch). It doesnt hold true for processing skills like crafting, smithing, fletching,summoning, slayer. But for these skills think about it more like when you have proved yourself worthy to be enlightened about new items to make the kowledge is given to you.(the game doesnt make it feel this way but you can think about it in this way)

But you stop at 100% x2 runes at 91. If you were to compare it to fishing you get better chance until 99 at cooking sharks, but in runecrafting you stop at 91. Shouldn't 91 get ability to craft 3x?

[Racheya]

But you stop at 100% x2 runes at 91. If you were to compare it to fishing you get better chance until 99 at cooking sharks, but in runecrafting you stop at 91. Shouldn't 91 get ability to craft 3x?

The thing with that, imo, is that with the extra people doing 2x, do we really need even more Natures coming into the game?

 

I can definitely see the reason and logic behind 3x Natures, but on an economic level it wouldn't be wise.

[king_muumuu]

But for these skills think about it more like when you have proved yourself worthy to be enlightened about new items to make the kowledge is given to you.(the game doesnt make it feel this way but you can think about it in this way)

 

Yes, but it's this sudden enlightenment that I find ridiculous. It would have been alot more gloryfying if each skill had a specific master, and once you got to a certain level, you would go to this master and, analyzing how much prowess you now have with the skill, find you worthy of teaching you new techniques so you can improve even further. Of course, this would present a huge bother of having to go to this master often for each skill, but it would have made the 'learning new things' process all that more believable.

[Peronix]

But you stop at 100% x2 runes at 91. If you were to compare it to fishing you get better chance until 99 at cooking sharks, but in runecrafting you stop at 91. Shouldn't 91 get ability to craft 3x?

The thing with that, imo, is that with the extra people doing 2x, do we really need even more Natures coming into the game?

 

I can definitely see the reason and logic behind 3x Natures, but on an economic level it wouldn't be wise.

 

Why not? They're already lowering the price of nats by letting people below 91 runecrafting have a chance of doubling some of their runes. Why not compensate for that fact by giving people who are even HIGHER than 91 more?

 

I mean, c'mon. I have more than double the experience of a 91 runecrafter, do I not deserve some kind of a bonus for that?

[Racheya]

Why not? They're already lowering the price of nats by letting people below 91 runecrafting have a chance of doubling some of their runes. Why not compensate for that fact by giving people who are even HIGHER than 91 more?

 

I mean, c'mon. I have more than double the experience of a 91 runecrafter, do I not deserve some kind of a bonus for that?

Because it would make Nature prices plummet even more than they're going to, which would make the wonderful gold mine of 91 rather less so (though this depends on how far they'll fall)

[Peronix]

Because it would make Nature prices plummet even more than they're going to, which would make the wonderful gold mine of 91 rather less so (though this depends on how far they'll fall)

Oh please. According to the theoretical level for triple nats, 99 RC would give barely a 10% chance of giving triple nats. So you're saying someone who has 84 RC should keep his ability to get 50% more nats, while completely ignoring people who have worked even harder. And besides that, I bet you there's a LOT, LOT more people in the 84-90 range benefiting than 91-99 RCers that would benefit from triples.

[sees_all1]

I'm guessing that its experience and not levels that matter.

If this is the case, the road to double nature runes means that on average you'll craft 1.5x nature runes per ess.

 

If it was levels that matter, on average you'll craft 1.8x nature runes per ess from 44 to 91 runecrafting.

 

 

The point that will most clearly make the distinction between the two is around level 68. If on average at level 68 you craft 1.5x nature runes per ess, levels matter. If instead you craft 1.1x nature runes per ess, experience matters.

 

If its something completely different, I'm stumped.

[Kersei]

I'm guessing that its experience and not levels that matter.

If this is the case, the road to double nature runes means that on average you'll craft 1.5x nature runes per ess.

 

If it was levels that matter, on average you'll craft 1.8x nature runes per ess from 44 to 91 runecrafting.

 

 

The point that will most clearly make the distinction between the two is around level 68. If on average at level 68 you craft 1.5x nature runes per ess, levels matter. If instead you craft 1.1x nature runes per ess, experience matters.

 

If its something completely different, I'm stumped.

 

It's neither, I craft about 1.5x at 89, my friend crafts about 1.2x at 60, and some random guy crafted about 1.4x at 73.

[kingbrooks]

Stocked up on 1k super strengths, please go up :pray:

 

If it is just minigames that are effected then I doubt enough people will buy to make a acceptable enough rise, but hey theres no reason for them to go down :grin:

 

 

And this update looks fantastic! Jagex are starting to think of some reallu innovative ideas: no more *sigh another X number of nats this load* idea (does it affect nats?)

 

I also love the mage change, I can pot up and use barrage for more than 3 seconds <3

 

Oh and also the turning off junk on accumulator looks pro, great update imo Jagex.

[sees_all1]

I'm guessing that its experience and not levels that matter.

If this is the case, the road to double nature runes means that on average you'll craft 1.5x nature runes per ess.

 

If it was levels that matter, on average you'll craft 1.8x nature runes per ess from 44 to 91 runecrafting.

 

 

The point that will most clearly make the distinction between the two is around level 68. If on average at level 68 you craft 1.5x nature runes per ess, levels matter. If instead you craft 1.1x nature runes per ess, experience matters.

 

If its something completely different, I'm stumped.

 

It's neither, I craft about 1.5x at 89, my friend crafts about 1.2x at 60, and some random guy crafted about 1.4x at 73.

 

How much data did you collect?

If I flip a coin 20 times, on average it should land 10x heads, 10x tails. However, it is not uncommon or even unlikely to get 11x, 12x, or even 13x heads. What you need is a very large sample, and crafting one load isn't going to do it.

 

If you craft 1000 essence at level 68 runecrafting, 95% of the time you will get between 1470 nats and 1530 nats, if its level based.

 

If it isn't, and its experience based, then if you craft 1000 essence at level 68, 95% of the time you will get between 1081 nats and 1119 nats.

 

 

 

I doubt any of you have taken enough data for it to be statistically significant.

[brunokiller]

So does the nature rune update pave the way for soul runecrafting?

[bedman]

Would it be considered uncouth if I belted out the Hallelujah Chorus right now?

I mean, this update is something I've wanted for a while. New mage spells so that it's more equal to other combat types, an extra bonus with mage pots, and to top it all off, the ability to make my own runes at a higher rate. This is amazing....

 

Time to train my herblore to where I can make mage pots. They're gonna go through the roof, and potato cacti with them. So this kinda sucks for lowish level summoners with a bunch of blue charms.

 

And also, pure ess shouldn't rise too much. I mean, you can get 150 free just by stopping by Wizard What'shisface in Ardougne with the Ardy Cape 3.

Everything you say doesnt make sense.

 

1) These spells cost more and hit less than any god spell with charge, which only needs lvl 80 magic. So mage is NOT more equal to other combat types.

2 You can't craft your deaths and bloods at a faster rate. It doesn't make sense for Jagex to add new spells requiring deaths and bloods, and then just making nats easier to craft. Someone suggest to introduce double deaths at 95 rc and double bloods at 99. Now that would be a good high lvl update and much better than what we have now. They could even add this together with what they added now, since a lot of high lvl double nat crafters would move onto double deaths, evening the increased supply by the "noob nat crafters" out.

3)Mage pots might have gotten an extra bonus, extreme mage got extremely nerfed.

4)Why should you train herblore for mage pots, which you can buy far cheaper on the GE. I'm training herblore right now too, but doing it so you can make your own mage pots is a bit of a silly reason tbh.

5)150 pure ess which most people dont even bother to collect, yes this will keep the ess price down...

[Maximusa]

OK...

 

Not very good for 91+ Rcers.. I dont think its a good update as it has taken one of the most difficult yet rewarding goals in the game away. I feel lucky I was able to feel the satisfaction of achieving double nats actually as everyone from levels 90 below probably wont. With all the monster drops supplying people with millions of gold skilling for money isnt as good as it used to be. Nearly all skills cost money to train efficiently so ruining one of the few decent skilling methods of making money isnt really that great. Yet again people are shafted to kill stuff or use slower methods.

 

However I think its more fair to allow 91+ and other runes to gain a chance of crafting more.

 

The new high level spell stuff is pretty cool but I dont really use it myself.

 

The best part of the update is the big bones into food. :thumbsup:

[Jon Arcane]

Making Astrals is more profitable for me than making Natures, haha,what a waste of my time gunning for 91.

[Mazhar]

woot extremes in safe minigames and ava's in cw.. other stuff is meh though

[Wouter828]

I don't see any setbacks here, seems like a good update to me :D

[Neos_Matrix]

Ooooo, gotta love those new "surge" spells. Cool icon for them as well.

 

But Fire Surge with pot and magic damage staff, gonna hurt very badly... :thumbup: