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Crushing and stabbing weapons almost useless (round 2)


quelmotz

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This is round 2 of the thread "Crushing and stabbing weps never used", which died a few months or so ago. I've revamped the thread and solutions to make it clearer and make sure the solutions are more specific and practical.

 

Problem

The issue I want to raise here is the fact that slashing weapons reign supreme in melee combat. I am NOT saying crushing/stabbing weapons do not have their own minor uses, such as killing waterfiends, etc, but I'm saying that in 95+% of the cases, it's better if you take slashing weapons. This clearly shows how weak crushing/stabbing weapons are. So what I'm going to suggest is a solution to the problem, to make crushing/stabbing weapons balanced with slashing weapons.

 

Solution

The solution I suggest has two parts:

1. Directly improving crushing/stabbing weapons.

2. Indirectly improving crushing/stabbing weapons by significantly widening the difference between the defensive stats of chainmail vs. stab and slash/crush, and plate armor vs. crush and slash/stab.

 

I'll only suggest improvements to the various weapons that exist from bronze-rune (or dragon if applicable). I will not suggest improvements to other crushing/stabbing weapons attained from quests (especially member quests, since I don't know about them at all).

 

Please also take note before I go into the individual weapons themselves, that I am not taking special attacks into account. Firstly, I am not a member and thus I am not able to comment on the efficiency of special attacks, and secondly special attacks often give a boost in power such that the difference between the weapon types are barely applicable, e.g. dragon dagger's special, which is very powerful as far as I know. Thirdly, it is impossible to judge whether a weapon needs nerfing/improving solely based on its special. For example the dragon scimitar has a rather weak special attack, but scimitars are one of the most efficient and common weapons in RuneScape.

 

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Dagger: Right now it is by far inferior to scimitars or even longswords, as one of the weakest if not THE weakest weapon in the game. I also find it absurd that you attack as fast with a tiny, light dagger as compared to a heavier scimitar.

Either increase the dagger's speed to 7 (hits every 1.8 seconds) and improve some of its offensive stats, or increase its speed to 8 (hits every 1.2 seconds) and perhaps lower its strength slightly.

 

Mace: A very weak weapon, regardless of whether you use its crush/stab attack. Leave its speed as it is, and drastically increase its prayer bonus (perhaps double?) or give it more strength and a bit more prayer bonus (maybe 1.5 times). I'd prefer the second though - it hits ridiculously weakly as of now.

 

Shortsword: Although it can be classified as a "slashing" weapon, it's still quite weak, so what I think is a suitable update is to make it a stronger but slower version of the dagger. Leave it's speed at 6, but increase its stab and decrease its slash, such that it is a quicker, but weaker version of the longsword.

 

Longsword: I'll just suggest slight improvements to its slash accuracy and strength to make it more balanced with the scimitar.

 

Warhammer: Lower its accuracy but GREATLY boost its strength bonus. A warhammer isn't an accurate weapon due to its rather slow speed, but when it does hit...let's just say you don't want to be wearing the armor a warhammer is pounding on.

 

Battleaxe: Maybe boost its accuracy slightly to balance it with the scimitar.

 

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Helmets: Boost the rune medium helm to be equal to the rune full helm, EXCEPT that it is stronger in crush than the rune full helm, but weaker in stab (I mean there's a huge hole in the face unlike the tiny gaps in the rune full helm, so opponents can stab you easier, right?).

 

Shields: Make the square shield equilavent to the kite shield, except that it is weak against crush whereas the kite is weak against stab.

 

Body: Boost the chainmail to equal power with the platemail, except it is weaker against stab but stronger against crush, whereas the plate is weaker against crush but stronger against stab. Both have equal defense against slash.

 

Legs: Nothing to change, they're as strong as each other.

 

** Take note that when I say weaker/stronger I mean SIGNIFICANTLY weaker/stronger. So if someone is wearing rune med helm, kite shield, chainmail and any legs, he'll take an average of at least 2-3 damage more vs. a stabbing weapon compared to the person wearing rune full helm, platebody, square shield and any legs.

 

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If you have any comments, constructive criticisms, please feel free to post. Don't flame or spam please. As you can see I put in at least 1 hour or so to make this thread. At least spend 2-3 minutes writing a reply.

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I'd say its pretty balanced, pretty much every monster in-game is weak to a specific type of attack and only about 1/3 are slash.

 

Yes on most is a minor difference, but its still a difference. I mean slash does fine on dragons, but stab does better.

 

Also msot player armours are weakest to crush.

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I'd say its pretty balanced, pretty much every monster in-game is weak to a specific type of attack and only about 1/3 are slash.

 

Yes on most is a minor difference, but its still a difference. I mean slash does fine on dragons, but stab does better.

 

Also msot player armours are weakest to crush.

If that were true then everyone would be using warhammers in pking, which clearly isn't the case right now.

 

And about your statement on monsters, not quite. People still use slash weapons on pretty much any monster apart from waterfiends, metal dragons, etc.

 

I agree that the weapons and armor should have more balance. It's ridiculous to see the F2P world with rune scimitars and full rune armor all the time. They're literally clones of each other! <_<

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I'd say its pretty balanced, pretty much every monster in-game is weak to a specific type of attack and only about 1/3 are slash.

 

Yes on most is a minor difference, but its still a difference. I mean slash does fine on dragons, but stab does better.

 

Also msot player armours are weakest to crush.

If that were true then everyone would be using warhammers in pking, which clearly isn't the case right now.

 

And about your statement on monsters, not quite. People still use slash weapons on pretty much any monster apart from waterfiends, metal dragons, etc.

 

I agree that the weapons and armor should have more balance. It's ridiculous to see the F2P world with rune scimitars and full rune armor all the time. They're literally clones of each other! <_<

 

 

It's a fact all monsters have different weaknesses. Just because people PICK to always use slash as things like whips are fast and don't do badly against the, doesn't mean if you look closley other attack types don;t do better. I often play around with attack style on guthans spear as it has stab slash and crush until I land on the one tht is hitting best.

 

And no everyone wouldnt use warhammers, because there are far stronger weapons with better speed; also people use godswords and veracs and they generally do crush damgae - hence their great power against players

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The problem isn't that crush and stab don't have uses -- they do. The problem is that most of the "high profile" weapons are either slash only, or are superior on slash.

 

When using Dharoks, I've found that the crush setting works better than slash on a *lot* of monsters.

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The problem isn't that crush and stab don't have uses -- they do. The problem is that most of the "high profile" weapons are either slash only, or are superior on slash.

 

When using Dharoks, I've found that the crush setting works better than slash on a *lot* of monsters.

That's true. A good idea is to make the crush weapons equal to slash weapons. Take Rune scimitar and warhammer for example, scimitar has +6 speed bar and warhammer +4. If you gave warhammer +2 more making it +6 speed bar then it might be actually useful in F2P.

 

I like crush weapons, so i hope in future they consider them as high profile weapons.

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Daggers aren't weak. They have poison.

 

Most people only use dragon dagger P++ for the SPECIAL ATTACK, not the dagger's "normal" attack itself. Yeah sure you can claim its a use but still slash overpower just about everything else.

 

It's a fact all monsters have different weaknesses. Just because people PICK to always use slash as things like whips are fast and don't do badly against the, doesn't mean if you look closley other attack types don;t do better. I often play around with attack style on guthans spear as it has stab slash and crush until I land on the one tht is hitting best.

 

And no everyone wouldnt use warhammers, because there are far stronger weapons with better speed; also people use godswords and veracs and they generally do crush damgae - hence their great power against players

 

Godswords do crush? Please - +132 slash vs +80 crush. Who in his/her right mind would use godswords to crush, other than on some stuff like waterfiends? Most armors have almost negligible differences in defense vs. crush and slash.

 

If other types of weapons do better, everyone would be using them, unless they cost ridiculously high or something. Word gets around RS fast.

 

 

The problem isn't that crush and stab don't have uses -- they do. The problem is that most of the "high profile" weapons are either slash only, or are superior on slash.

 

When using Dharoks, I've found that the crush setting works better than slash on a *lot* of monsters.

 

I clearly stated that crush and stab weapons DO HAVE USES, but slashing weapons are much more useful, and probably have a few times the uses compared to the two of them added together.

 

Define "a lot". Maybe it was just coincidence on some, or maybe personal gut feeling made your opinion biased? I highly doubt 75% or so of monsters can be killed more efficiently using crush/stab compared to slash. On the contrary, it's the opposite IMO.

 

That's true. A good idea is to make the crush weapons equal to slash weapons. Take Rune scimitar and warhammer for example, scimitar has +6 speed bar and warhammer +4. If you gave warhammer +2 more making it +6 speed bar then it might be actually useful in F2P.

 

I like crush weapons, so i hope in future they consider them as high profile weapons.

 

NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

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NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

 

You're talking about logicality in Runescape? Lol...

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NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

 

You're talking about logicality in Runescape? Lol...

 

Just because RS isn't logical presently isn't an excuse to aggravate the illogicality.

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The problem is NOT with crush and stab weapons.

 

The problem is with players who pick to always use slash attacks on whips etc as they are faster.

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The problem is NOT with crush and stab weapons.

 

The problem is with players who pick to always use slash attacks on whips etc as they are faster.

I wouldn't consider players picking weapons with higher DPS a problem, although I think I know what you mean.

 

However, I wouldn't change weapon types either. However I would either modify current monsters to make certain attack style difference much more noticeable or start making weapons that are up there with GS/whip but use crush or stab. Anchor was a step in the right direction, except that it pretty much sucks DPS wise. I don't see any harm in raising the crush bonus on godswords and Dharoks, either.

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The problem is NOT with crush and stab weapons.

 

The problem is with players who pick to always use slash attacks on whips etc as they are faster.

I wouldn't consider players picking weapons with higher DPS a problem, although I think I know what you mean.

 

However, I wouldn't change weapon types either. However I would either modify current monsters to make certain attack style difference much more noticeable or start making weapons that are up there with GS/whip but use crush or stab. Anchor was a step in the right direction, except that it pretty much sucks DPS wise. I don't see any harm in raising the crush bonus on godswords and Dharoks, either.

 

True true.

 

But DPS and Kills vary alot.

 

eg dragons:

 

Whipping them u get high dps on average

But stabbing them you do get faster kills usually

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I find crush weapons pretty useful, in PVP anyway. Rune is weakest to crush, and if anyone uses Statwarhammer, it can destory in most situations.

As for stab, its only real use is against dragon to be honest.

 

I've never found stab/slah/crush to be any better than the next...

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NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

 

You're talking about logicality in Runescape? Lol...

 

Just because RS isn't logical presently isn't an excuse to aggravate the illogicality.

How is it illogical that a Warhammer can have same speed as a Scimitar?

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NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

 

You're talking about logicality in Runescape? Lol...

 

Just because RS isn't logical presently isn't an excuse to aggravate the illogicality.

How is it illogical that a Warhammer can have same speed as a Scimitar?

So apparently you have not heard about the laws of inertia and mass, balance means nothing to you and everything is light as a feather.

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NO!! That'll make RuneScape ridiculously illogical. How the heck could somebody hit with a warhammer as fast as a scimitar or dagger? And furthermore warhammers have better stats except the stats are made less useful due to its slow speed.

 

You're talking about logicality in Runescape? Lol...

 

Just because RS isn't logical presently isn't an excuse to aggravate the illogicality.

How is it illogical that a Warhammer can have same speed as a Scimitar?

So apparently you have not heard about the laws of inertia and mass, balance means nothing to you and everything is light as a feather.

 

@SirHemen: Holy crap, I've heard of ignorant laymen but you completely beat the lot. I mean it doesn't take a scientific genius to figure out it takes more effort to swing a warhammer than a scimitar and therefore the scimitar would hit faster because the warhammer is heavier...

 

View PostPhilip_kolar, on 22 November 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

View PostPaw_Claw, on 22 November 2009 - 07:41 PM, said:

The problem is NOT with crush and stab weapons.

 

The problem is with players who pick to always use slash attacks on whips etc as they are faster.

 

I wouldn't consider players picking weapons with higher DPS a problem, although I think I know what you mean.

 

However, I wouldn't change weapon types either. However I would either modify current monsters to make certain attack style difference much more noticeable or start making weapons that are up there with GS/whip but use crush or stab. Anchor was a step in the right direction, except that it pretty much sucks DPS wise. I don't see any harm in raising the crush bonus on godswords and Dharoks, either.

 

 

True true.

 

But DPS and Kills vary alot.

 

eg dragons:

 

Whipping them u get high dps on average

But stabbing them you do get faster kills usually

 

DPS = damage per second = accuracy-defense x average damage (which includes speed). Since defense (and sometimes your accuracy too) of the opponent varies, DPS is not a constant value, and therefore whips have poorer DPS vs. dragons for example, but they have far better DPS vs other monsters.

 

Slashing weapons will almost always reign supreme. There's no need to argue about "players not using crushing/stabbing weapons" - if they were better in XXX case, a significant number of players would use it in that XXX case.

 

And I have yet to see you produce evidence supporting your claims that warhammers do more damage per second vs plated opponents in PvP. I do understand that warhammers will do more damage PER HIT, which could lead to the illusion that they do more damage per second, which I believe is not true.

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I'd say its pretty balanced, pretty much every monster in-game is weak to a specific type of attack and only about 1/3 are slash.

 

Yes on most is a minor difference, but its still a difference. I mean slash does fine on dragons, but stab does better.

 

Also msot player armours are weakest to crush.

 

 

+1 what I was going to say.

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I would change the state of some of the higher weapon stats. IE Boost the Godsword crush attack a little more. For example. the difference from slash->crush is the same difference (or worse) than the difference from slash->crush def on a player.

 

And I would change some NPCs def styled stats more. It is true, that you only have dragons, waterfiends, aquanites, corp beast, etc. Theres a few unknowns out there that are weak to stab as well, IE walasalkis. I know there's a few more but I can't think of them atm. Yes for the most part slash prevails. Partly due to the fact most weapons are catered towards slash and partly because most NPCs actually are weaker to slash.

 

Let's not forget also the mechanics of the game itself puts slash in a better position. The best stab/crushing weapons are 2h, similar str, same speed as whip. Yet whip is one-handed, and its slash can be boosted with a defender.

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Armor weaknesses need to be much further enhanced, that is for sure.

 

F2P example...

 

Full rune + scim vs. Full rune + Warhammer.

 

Scimitar wins, because the hitting differences are not pronounced enough to warrant the slower speed.

 

Speaking of inertia and mass, a warhammer should have a huge str bonus in comparison to a scimitar. The accuracy is perhaps fine; they must have been easy to dodge/block. But when they do hit, they should hit quite hard.

 

The armor is not weak enough in Crush. It's plated armor! A scimitar should practically slide off it. A warhammer would cave it in! :P

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Thanks for all the support/constructive criticism.

 

I'm going to change the warhammer's suggested update to a slight decrease in accuracy (it shouldn't be any more accurate than a scimitar), but boost its power greatly.

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