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"Feminism"


Myweponsg00d

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OP has a good point. I like my women liberal, but feminism usually crosses the border to insanity. I don't want to be with an unfeminine girl. I want a nice home maker wife (someday). I understand women don't want to be opressed, but defying man(men) isn't the way to do it. Feminists also have a habit of degrading man(men) by acting more "manly" in comparison. I understand portions of the feminist mentality, but it's true - There's nothing wrong with being a nice housewife/care giver. I think they're just nuts because they don't want girls to think they have to be a homemaker. I'm not saying they have to be either, but most people are better off with the roles they naturally belong in.

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magekillr, I am sad that you feel the need to pointlessly flame my post. First of all, I am not asserting this view point to anyone, and I am not even claiming this to be MY viewpoint. In my class, we present arguments to eachother. Regardless of what our "presonal" opinion is, we devise ways of looking at things to give an interesting perspective on something that most people hadnt even considered before. You also seem to be missing the key questions in the orignal thread.

 

The key theme in the original thread is a logical confusion over what the word "Feminism" means. When we speak of "feminine" qualities, we are referring to the qualities that women have. So if you take the word "feminine" and then examine what is known as "feminism", are the two actually related? Or do the words intended to referr to entirely different things?

 

Let me try to rebuild the original thought in a shorter, more concise manner:

 

Let's say I start with the knowledge of the word "feminine". Feminine qualities are qualities of loving, caring, emotion, nuturing, etc. Now if you have only knowledge of this word, and no previous knowledge, imagine you are asked to define a word such as "feminism" or "feminist". Would you not say that the logical association to that word would give a response such as "Well, I assume that a feminist would be one who strongly supports feminine qualities."

 

The problem that I am trying to point out is that many radical feminists, indeed, act LIKE MEN. To me this is saying "Men are better than women, so I need to act like a man." Also, "feminism" seems to have little concern with upholding the qualities of "feminine" life. "Feminism" starts as a desire to obtain the things that typically were exclusively for men. To me, this says: "Women are great, men are no better than us, but for us to become better people, we need to have the things that men have."

 

Do you understand what this post is about now? It is simply an attempt to point out how confusing the concept of "feminism" is. I am not saying women are bad, I am not saying men are bad, I am just trying to generate discussion about this subject that doesn't quite make sense in a "boolian logic" point of view.

 

I don't think that feminists are fighting for women's strength, I think they are fighting to make there be no difference between a man and a woman. As a previous poster said, the term "feminism" should perhaps more accurately be called "equalism"

 

When it comes down to facts, men and women ARE different, on more than just their reproductive anatomy. They think differently and feel different emotions. So what is "right" for us to do? Is it wrong for us to look at a man and say "well, he is likely a rational person" or at a woman and say "she would probably be a better caregiver for that child than her husband."? Why should it be WRONG to say these things? Statistically speaking, most females have typical "feminine" qualities and most males have typical "masculine" qualities. So why is it wrong to make generalizations? Statistically speaking, if you pick a random man walking down the street, it is highly probable that he will exibit classic masculine qualities. Why? Because thats how statistics work!

 

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate. I think there is a problem because we are looking at this in the same way we look at racism. A black man and a white man being treated different is wrong because there is no significant statistical data that shows these two men would naturally behave differently from each other.

 

However, we try to apply the same thing to man vs woman, and I really do not think it is working. Mother nature makes our brains differently, and gives us different hormones. We behave, STATISTICALLY, way different from eachother.

 

But the main question I am asking is: what SHOULD be the right thing to do? Should society learn to celebrate the differences between men and women? Similar to the way that we are striving for homosexuality to be treated as a normal human condition?

 

Or, like our violent urges that come from nature, should we learn to OVERCOME our "instinctual" man vs woman behaviors, and erase the line between man and woman behavior?

 

I am not asserting either point, because I feel this problem is too difficult to pretend like I have the answer to it. I am merely trying to create discussion and ask people whether they think that society is viewing men and women in the "right way"

 

 

Correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong, but are you saying that the homemaker/caregiver stereotype is "lower" than the protector/breadwinner stereotype? Because if that's what you're saying, I think you missed the point of this guy's post...that women are told that their traditional role is inferior for whatever reason is [cabbage]. The traditional stereotype of women is just as important as the traditional male stereotype (someone has to take care of the kids, house etc. I'm not saying that women should do this, just that it isn't inferior to being the breadwinner).

 

Again, please correct me if I interpreted your post wrong.

 

Also please answer this guys post. I'm also interested in a clarification on what you meant.

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The type of feminism you just described sounds ridiculous.

 

Sure, everybody has a right to do anything, but saying that females suck just because of what they naturally do... -_-

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If woman want everything equal, then let's give them everything equal. Make them play 5 sets of tennis, let them be able to playl Rugby League with men and see if they still think they want to be equal. Make them labourers and haul bricks on a worksite for 9 hours a day.

All year in English our teacher would bang on about how females should be able to do everything and kept saying over and over again that 85% of corporate bosses are male. Maybe it's because they do a better job? It's nothing about sex but men just make better CEO's and are able to make better decisions.

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If woman want everything equal, then let's give them everything equal. Make them play 5 sets of tennis, let them be able to playl Rugby League with men and see if they still think they want to be equal. Make them labourers and haul bricks on a worksite for 9 hours a day.

 

Don't forget:

 

No ladies nights

No "ladies first" policy

No "don't hit girls" rule

No more Women Entertainment Television

Women should be expected to pay for their meal at dates

 

Somehow I have the feeling that a lot of women really don't want to be treated like men. If you truly want equality, then you should want equality for both genders instead of just picking and choosing to get rid of the things that negatively effect women and keeping all the things that benefit them.

 

It focuses on abortion because abortion is not about life or death, but about control over one's body; let's not kid ourselves here, because that's what this debate is really about. Men want to control what women do with their bodies.

 

This is exactly what makes feminism annoying. When people victimize themselves over absolutely nothing and point the finger angrily at men. You seem to be forgetting that there are plenty of pro-life women out there. Yes, I do think women should get the same pay for the same work, have the ability to vote, and so on, but making men into monsters is barely the way to do it.

 

I also think it's ridiculous to fight the establishment just for the sake of fighting the establishment. There ought to be a good reason for doing so. Like I said, I understand wanting equal rights and all, but some of the arguments feminists use are just pulled out of their behinds.... I mean purses. Yeah, I went there. Better go get your picket signs, there's a bigot on the loose. :roll:

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This is exactly what makes feminism annoying. When people victimize themselves over absolutely nothing and point the finger angrily at men.

 

This has truths to it beyond their stance on abortion.

 

A lot of women are angry at men for the fact that they have to shave and wear female cloths to attract a mate. They think its a problem with body image. Well, guess what, its not the men who are pressuring people to look like that. They are all competing with each other and trying to look better than the other ones. Also I think this argument sucks because it also happens with men. We compete over attracting females just as much as females compete over attracting men. We change our body image, and get this, we even adapt our personalities. I really don't think women have to deal with the social pressures of adapting our personalities to find a mate.

 

You might read this and think "No thats wrong! Guys should be themselves!" Well let me tell you that if every guy was being his true self he would walk around playing with his balls, farting, belching, hitting on every woman he sees, making dirty jokes...I understand that not all men are like this, but the majority of us are all comfortable with this type of behavior. Women don't like that kind of abraisiveness and we have to pretend we are a more gentle person to attract the average woman.

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If woman want everything equal, then let's give them everything equal. Make them play 5 sets of tennis, let them be able to playl Rugby League with men and see if they still think they want to be equal. Make them labourers and haul bricks on a worksite for 9 hours a day.

 

Don't forget:

 

No ladies nights

No "ladies first" policy

No "don't hit girls" rule

No more Women Entertainment Television

Women should be expected to pay for their meal at dates

 

Somehow I have the feeling that a lot of women really don't want to be treated like men. If you truly want equality, then you should want equality for both genders instead of just picking and choosing to get rid of the things that negatively effect women and keeping all the things that benefit them.

 

It focuses on abortion because abortion is not about life or death, but about control over one's body; let's not kid ourselves here, because that's what this debate is really about. Men want to control what women do with their bodies.

 

This is exactly what makes feminism annoying. When people victimize themselves over absolutely nothing and point the finger angrily at men. You seem to be forgetting that there are plenty of pro-life women out there. Yes, I do think women should get the same pay for the same work, have the ability to vote, and so on, but making men into monsters is barely the way to do it.

 

I also think it's ridiculous to fight the establishment just for the sake of fighting the establishment. There ought to be a good reason for doing so. Like I said, I understand wanting equal rights and all, but some of the arguments feminists use are just pulled out of their behinds.... I mean purses. Yeah, I went there. Better go get your picket signs, there's a bigot on the loose. :roll:

This is one of the most disgusting posts I've read. :angry:

 

Women aren't making men into monsters, because some men already are. Some men think it's their right to rape and abuse their wife, or force her into having children. Are you saying that it's wrong for women to want to bring this to a stop? This isn't JUST FOR THE SAKE of anything, it's for equality. Of course some of the radical feminists will try and make men to seem worse than they are, but you're basically saying that women are just making a big fuss over nothing and they should just STFU and do what men say.

 

My dad goes to work. So does my mum. My mum works longer hours than my dad AND spends hours when she gets home tidying up and cleaning while he's lay on the couch. Women are often stuck with careers, housework and childcare these days, it's unfair. Sure the laws are better than they used to be, but a lot of the social issues still need to be tackled.

 

I'm no good at this whole debating thing, but some of the posts on this thread are really getting on my nerves tbh <_<

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If woman want everything equal, then let's give them everything equal. Make them play 5 sets of tennis, let them be able to playl Rugby League with men and see if they still think they want to be equal. Make them labourers and haul bricks on a worksite for 9 hours a day.

 

Don't forget:

 

No ladies nights

No "ladies first" policy

No "don't hit girls" rule

No more Women Entertainment Television

Women should be expected to pay for their meal at dates

 

Somehow I have the feeling that a lot of women really don't want to be treated like men. If you truly want equality, then you should want equality for both genders instead of just picking and choosing to get rid of the things that negatively effect women and keeping all the things that benefit them.

 

It focuses on abortion because abortion is not about life or death, but about control over one's body; let's not kid ourselves here, because that's what this debate is really about. Men want to control what women do with their bodies.

 

This is exactly what makes feminism annoying. When people victimize themselves over absolutely nothing and point the finger angrily at men. You seem to be forgetting that there are plenty of pro-life women out there. Yes, I do think women should get the same pay for the same work, have the ability to vote, and so on, but making men into monsters is barely the way to do it.

 

I also think it's ridiculous to fight the establishment just for the sake of fighting the establishment. There ought to be a good reason for doing so. Like I said, I understand wanting equal rights and all, but some of the arguments feminists use are just pulled out of their behinds.... I mean purses. Yeah, I went there. Better go get your picket signs, there's a bigot on the loose. :roll:

This is one of the most disgusting posts I've read. :angry:

 

Women aren't making men into monsters, because some men already are. Some men think it's their right to rape and abuse their wife, or force her into having children. Are you saying that it's wrong for women to want to bring this to a stop? This isn't JUST FOR THE SAKE of anything, it's for equality. Of course some of the radical feminists will try and make men to seem worse than they are, but you're basically saying that women are just making a big fuss over nothing and they should just STFU and do what men say.

 

I think you've completely misconstrued Zierro's post. That's alright though, it's to be expected from a woman. (Couldn't resist).

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This thread reminds me of a quote i saw on a tshirt once. "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people". Made me giggle. I support people who are feminist in terms of bringing women to equal standards of me. What I don't like is when feminists try to prove SUPERIORITY to men. Its just stupid. I totally support bringing women to equal playing fields as men if they want it that way, but I'm not going to bow down to Nancy Grace and her crackpot companions by saying women deserve to be held higher than men.

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There are women who think that women are better than men. It's pointless to deny that, because it's true, and most people have met someone like that. However, not all feminists are like that. Some do believe in true equality, including in the things Zierro pointed out.

 

No ladies nights I think this is unnecessary, guys have guys nights, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean here.

No "ladies first" policy I've never insisted on this for myself. Some people hold doors, but I do the same for people going through doors before/after me, so I'm not sure whether it's ladies first or common decency to another person, whatever their gender.

No "don't hit girls" rule Well, I think a "don't hit others" rule would be preferable, just like we all learned in nursery school. But I agree, the "guys hitting girls is abusive; girls hitting guys is funny" double standard has to go. I'm assuming that's your objection.

No more Women Entertainment Television If that's the same as the Lifetime channel, then please God yes. If it's not, then I don't know what you're talking about, so I can't comment.

Women should be expected to pay for their meal at datesI already do this, and so do most of my girlfriends. So... Yeah.

 

@ myweaponsg00d, my problem with the way women dress to "attract a man" (and I agree, that isn't completely the fault of men, women have encouraged it too) is that it tends to lead to victim blaming. A woman dresses in attractive clothes and gets raped? Well, obviously she was trying to get a guy to notice her and she must have wanted it. Saying no was just her playing hard to get. Or maybe she was "being a tease" and "leading him on" and so she deserved it, which is complete [cabbage]. on the other hand, male rape also needs to be treated with more seriousness. While female on male rape is rarer than male on female, it does happen and is even more underreported than "normal" rape... because women are considered weaker and most men who are raped by a woman feel that their masculinity has been destroyed because as a man, they should be able to overpower a mere woman.

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No ladies nights

 

I think this is unnecessary, guys have guys nights, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean here.

 

By that I meant the bars and clubs that serve females alcohol free of charge.

 

Of course some of the radical feminists will try and make men to seem worse than they are, but you're basically saying that women are just making a big fuss over nothing and they should just STFU and do what men say.

 

I'm not saying all feminists are like that. Just that the ones who are like that are annoying as hell.

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No ladies nights

 

I think this is unnecessary, guys have guys nights, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean here.

 

By that I meant the bars and clubs that serve females alcohol free of charge.

Ah, alright. I don't go out to bars that often. I had never heard about that. :P I agree on ending that too, then.

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blue = sad

hoo = who

loo = 100

vo = broken ice cream cone = sad children = sad babies = dead babies

 

bluehooloovo = sadwho100deadbabies = Who is sad about 100 dead babies?

 

I've cracked the code!

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What you have to recognize about feminists is that the majority don't really want equality for men and women. They want all the benefits to being a man with none of the negative repercussions.

 

Equality I can live with, this ridiculous push to give women all sorts of preferential treatment I can't.

 

@ myweaponsg00d, my problem with the way women dress to "attract a man" (and I agree, that isn't completely the fault of men, women have encouraged it too) is that it tends to lead to victim blaming. A woman dresses in attractive clothes and gets raped? Well, obviously she was trying to get a guy to notice her and she must have wanted it. Saying no was just her playing hard to get. Or maybe she was "being a tease" and "leading him on" and so she deserved it, which is complete [cabbage]. on the other hand, male rape also needs to be treated with more seriousness. While female on male rape is rarer than male on female, it does happen and is even more underreported than "normal" rape... because women are considered weaker and most men who are raped by a woman feel that their masculinity has been destroyed because as a man, they should be able to overpower a mere woman.

 

The issue here is simple: Women don't, simply don't understand what being a man is like And they never will.

 

I don't agree that since a woman dresses in "provocative clothing" she is "asking for it" but women don't understand the effect flirting and dressing provocatively has on men.

 

Example - this happened to me over the summer (well not to me but you'll get what I mean).

 

I was on a camping trip - and this guy raped a girl (the girl was lesbian and not interested). However, both were very drunk. She spent the entire evening rubbing his head and flirting with him, and making sexual related jokes. And to cap it off, he didn't have a sleeping bag so suggested he share the sleeping bag with her. He tried to have sex with her, she resisted, etc etc.

 

As much as it is up to men to control their urges, sexual urges in men are something not easily controlled. It's a driving force that is always constant in every man in a way it isn't in any woman. It takes an insane amount of self control to be able to deny yourself in a situation like that and to be honest, in todays society, with advertising telling you to "just do it", to take what you want just because you want it, it isn't surprising that many men end up with serious shortcomings in the self control section.

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