Jump to content
Due to the significant updates that have taken place, you now need to login with your display name or e-mail address, NOT your login name. ×
Due to posts that are 5+ years old being rebuilt, some of the older BBCodes may not have converted properly but still be in the post. Most posts are unaffected but some using what was our custom BBCode (like [spoiler]) will be a bit broken. ×
Sign in to follow this  
rocc0

Labor Laws

Recommended Posts

Labor laws: that includes child labor, sweat shops, minimum wage, etc. Let's hear some opinions! Yay, nay, or what?


TANSTAAFL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pfft, tha stuff is old and boring, and I think most people agree on them. How about something different: Maximum wage laws. Should there be absolute salary caps, a limit to how much money a person can earn?


whalenuke.png

Command the Murderous Chalices! Drink ye harpooners! drink and swear, ye men that man the deathful whaleboat's bow- Death to Moby Dick!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

angel2w.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pfft, tha stuff is old and boring, and I think most people agree on them. How about something different: Maximum wage laws. Should there be absolute salary caps, a limit to how much money a person can earn?

Nope, no maximum cap.

 

The banking scandal is one thing, but just because of this there shouldn't be a cap on what you can earn. And this cap, to make effective, would have to be all over the world then. Since otherwise, rich people will move to country x and country y will loose enormous tax sums.

Capping bonuses and parachutes i agree on, but i don't agree on capping wages. A persons should be able to earn what he/she is able to earn without being restricted.


J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff movies

Je trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vie

Je ne me reconnais plus dans les gens

Je suis juste un cas désespérant

Et comme personne ne viendra me réclamer

Je terminerai comme un objet retrouvé

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun fact: employer based health insurance came about in the United States because of maximum wage laws during WW2.


q8tsigindy500fan.jpg

indy500fanan9.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the private sector there should be no pay caps but there definately should be in the public sector. Obviously, it would vary from job to job and would have to be tied to potential private sector pay in a similar position. The exception to the rule being that there should be a cap in place in private business when the government is a major stakeholder (ie. in the financial institutions that have been rescued by the public purse).


wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun fact: employer based health insurance came about in the United States because of maximum wage laws during WW2.

 

Which were needed in dealing with funding the war (not that I think having insurance based on your employment status is a good thing).

 

Anyway, I'm not much for regulation in certain areas. Obviously there should be labor laws for children and especially laws for the environment, but I think Denmark has the best model concerning these sorts of things (and really the way a government should be run as well):

 

Have little regulation concerning wages, trade, businesses. However, have a highly unionized economy with very high taxes, funding a very generous social safety net/welfare state.

 

This is good for businesses allowing them to grow and prosper, this is good for employees who have unions to counter corporate power, and this is good for the poor and unfortunate to get back on their feet again. This is also the model that Chile has been following, and it's been very successful in my opinion (CLICK). However, you have to get the conservatives of your respective country to accept the welfare state and the taxes needed to fund it. In the US, this isn't going to happen, so we have to rely on inefficient regulations that aren't enforced properly as they're usually left up to the states; this is bad for job and business growth. Meanwhile our rich and poor are separating at an alarming rate, causing a huge squeeze on the middle class.

 

So to recap: Good model--> Denmark.......Bad model--> United States

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living in a welfare state (Sweden), i don't like it one bit.

I think i would almost be ok with it, if the system worked, but it doesnt. Only Denmark has higher taxes than we, but people from my country continue to go there to live/ or work. Especially doctors in the southern part of my country, a big number has moved to Denmark. Why? Because they have better working conditions; Less hours, earning more, working with new equipment etc etc.

Everything in my country is on the save. Schools, roads, elder-care, military, hospitals etc. But it's pretty easy to save money (stop taking in 100k people a year).

And another bad thing with this type of economy is the welfare checks, it really is too easy in this country to get welfare. Even tho the "blues (they've become light-red)" have been running the country for the past 3 years, getting welfare is far too easy. And it keeps people at home rather than to go out and look for work.

 

I do not like the welfare state. At least like it's now. How do you encourage companies to stay in this country when the company taxes are thru the roof? A crapload of companies has during 00-10 moved to either Asia or Eastern Europe to save money. And one major flaw is the law "LAS", effectively it goes like this: I own a company, i have someone who has worked at the company for 5 years and someone who has worked for 1 year. I need to save money by firing one of the two, but by law (the mentioned one) i am required to sack the person who has been here for the shortest amount of time.

This is a major hinder for companies in my country.

However, this law, does not exist in Denmark to my knowledge.


J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff movies

Je trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vie

Je ne me reconnais plus dans les gens

Je suis juste un cas désespérant

Et comme personne ne viendra me réclamer

Je terminerai comme un objet retrouvé

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Against any sort of law that protects society from the ravishes of evil...

People wouldn't stand for bankers if there was no regulation at all...that or they would have to be honest.

 

On the original topic though...I think that it is fine for children to work. Its one of those things that we look down our noses at because 'a child should be having fun not working' and then we find out that our interefering has damned millions of people to poverty because without children earning some people can't get by.

More than this some children can't get away from their families...so really it just controls children even more.

 

Just let people live the way they chose.

 

On Social Spending in general..Its a good thing, the Government is there to look after the people, not to fight wars and thats about all. Taxes should be at a moderate level to provide a basic level of help for everyone in the country...unless they are completely useless(As many British people seem to be) in which case they should be exported in exchange for some immigrants(I live in Britain) so that other countries get the useless layabouts and we get hardworking immigrants....Seems fair to me.

Course the easiest way to save money is to get rid of all the middle management paper pushers and actually start producing something...but I doubt people will go for that.


Well I knew you wouldn't agree. I know how you hate facing facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Child Labor: I have no problem with child labor. As long as it is restricted to a certain amount of hours and limited in its degree of manual input there should be no reason why a willing child can't be productive.

 

As for foreign sweat shops and such I find them horrible. Putting aside morals (as we often do), it's horrible for the economy. I suggest the implementing of US standards to foreign sweat shops owned by US companies and unannounced visits by standard inspectors. No one will want to keep their industry out of the US if they have to pay the same maintenance and wages not to mention gas to transport goods here. It will be a refreshment of American labor and strengthen the economy.

 

As for "diversification" of the work place, I scoff. Jobs should be distributed based on merit and ability, and on no preconceived notion based on what race, gender, etc the person is. This also includes giving people a job because they are that gender or race.

 

And as for a salary cap, that is a rather inconsistent law with our "capitalist" society. What you make you deserve when you employ because you obviously went through the sweat to get there. The morality of the CEO should decided whether or not they should give themselves 500x the wage of one of their basic employees.

 

Oh and unemployment is bad too. It doesn't give any incentive to go work when you could be making a decent amount not doing anything.


kaisershami.png

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for foreign sweat shops and such I find them horrible. Putting aside morals (as we often do), it's horrible for the economy. I suggest the implementing of US standards to foreign sweat shops owned by US companies and unannounced visits by standard inspectors. No one will want to keep their industry out of the US if they have to pay the same maintenance and wages not to mention gas to transport goods here. It will be a refreshment of American labor and strengthen the economy.

 

Oh and unemployment is bad too. It doesn't give any incentive to go work when you could be making a decent amount not doing anything.

Sweat shops allow companies to cheaply purchase items, allowing them to sell their product for less. This means that more people can afford it, thus increasing the amount they can earn. This gives the employees a higher pay, giving work a bigger appeal.

 

The main point of unemployment is for people who are unable to find employment. It also serves to try and keep those too lazy to work from being on the streets, where they are more likely to cause problems or get into organised crime.


Steam | PM me for BBM PIN

 

Nine naked men is a technological achievement. Quote of 2013.

 

PCGamingWiki - Let's fix PC gaming!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for foreign sweat shops and such I find them horrible. Putting aside morals (as we often do), it's horrible for the economy. I suggest the implementing of US standards to foreign sweat shops owned by US companies and unannounced visits by standard inspectors. No one will want to keep their industry out of the US if they have to pay the same maintenance and wages not to mention gas to transport goods here. It will be a refreshment of American labor and strengthen the economy.

 

Oh and unemployment is bad too. It doesn't give any incentive to go work when you could be making a decent amount not doing anything.

Sweat shops allow companies to cheaply purchase items, allowing them to sell their product for less. This means that more people can afford it, thus increasing the amount they can earn. This gives the employees a higher pay, giving work a bigger appeal.

 

The main point of unemployment is for people who are unable to find employment. It also serves to try and keep those too lazy to work from being on the streets, where they are more likely to cause problems or get into organised crime.

 

Swaetshops also allow companies to employ young children on a slave wage and it allows companies to actively ignore safety measures. To say that their competative in terms of price doesn't excuse or absolve the companies of any moral cost. You could argue that murder acts as an effective tool of population control but I couldn't see that working in court. Also companies who run sweatshops don't put their extra profits back into sweatshop workers, that idea is ridiculous - the idea of the sweatshop is to keep prices at an absolute minimum not to pay their workers fairly. If that wasn't the case it would not be a sweatshop.

 

For too long Western companies have operated in poor countries to get around the law as they know they can take advantage of poor governance and exploit the immensely poor to do whatever they want and it is quite shameful in a lot of cases. That being said, I think a whole lot of people don't want to know much of what goes on to get them their cheap pair of shoes because then they don't need to face up to it. If many of the things that went on in sweatshops (and in western companies operating in the third world general) happened closer to home, people would be appaled.

 

Edit - Just on your crime point, a lot of people turn to crime as an alternative to having to work 'regular' bad jobs (ie. bad jobs by our standards). If many people's only choice was to work in a sweatshop or go towards crime, I would suggest that more people would turn to crime.


wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course if we were all nationalistic we wouldn't buy goods from outside our country, meaning that the slave markets would collapse...The problems come from interfering with other countries...stop doing that and life is better for you, life is better for them and life is better for everyone else.

 

But its cheap and we feel morally obligated for force people to live like us(As Westerners) because, as everyone knows we are infinitely superior, but we can't say that so we just say that they are culturally inferior and try to improve them by destroying their culture and way of life.

Then we call it multi-culturalism, label anyone who doesn't want to give money to starving children in Africa a Racist, and say 'Actually I don't think other countries mind that much...' and ignore the arguments on how terrible Europe is and how it is destroying our (British) Culture.

 

Course you try to go the other way and adopt the middle eastern tradition(in the spirit of multi-culturalism)and refuse women the right to speak in your (male) presence and suddenly its not ok to be multi-cultualist because it interferes with our culture(Which is Anti-Sexist).

 

Any way you look at it we are all hypocrites, simple because it is easier to be a hypocrite than to see the world for what it really is...and of course because we all secretly believe(or want to believe) that we are superior to everyone else.


Well I knew you wouldn't agree. I know how you hate facing facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheer up achimage_a. I'm like to discriminate too, and I'm okay with it!


SoLawny.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for foreign sweat shops and such I find them horrible. Putting aside morals (as we often do), it's horrible for the economy. I suggest the implementing of US standards to foreign sweat shops owned by US companies and unannounced visits by standard inspectors. No one will want to keep their industry out of the US if they have to pay the same maintenance and wages not to mention gas to transport goods here. It will be a refreshment of American labor and strengthen the economy.

 

Oh and unemployment is bad too. It doesn't give any incentive to go work when you could be making a decent amount not doing anything.

Sweat shops allow companies to cheaply purchase items, allowing them to sell their product for less. This means that more people can afford it, thus increasing the amount they can earn. This gives the employees a higher pay, giving work a bigger appeal.

 

The main point of unemployment is for people who are unable to find employment. It also serves to try and keep those too lazy to work from being on the streets, where they are more likely to cause problems or get into organised crime.

But that's the thing, nothing guarantees the employers would pay it's employees more. Some sort of intervention, through national law or unions, must take place to secure that shift.


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

siggy3s.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course if we were all nationalistic we wouldn't buy goods from outside our country, meaning that the slave markets would collapse...The problems come from interfering with other countries...stop doing that and life is better for you, life is better for them and life is better for everyone else.

 

It's nothing to do with being nationalistic, I have no problem with buying foreign goods. My problem is companies based in the west which we freely allow to use immoral practices abroad because they can take advantage of poor and weak legislation in those nations. I'm not saying that we should interfere with other nations rather we should regulate western businesses that work abroad better. I'm not totally naive, I understand that it's expediant for companies to pay lower wages abroad but there has to be some regulation. That was my point.

 

If we went down the nationalistic route and only bought our own national produce, our nation would be a much more bland place in many respects. In fact if you want to go back a bit, the British were a really early driving force in the whole process of globalsiation with their use of goods from the nations of the Empire.


wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What with being a trading empire, yes I know. =P

 

Well this is the thing isn't it...In order to protect others we have to in-act business practicies which cripple our industry...after all if it wasn't for the low prices then buying stuff from china and such is far more expensive...Thus, unless the world does it as one, no single nation could do it without sacrificing their place in the world.

 

Also how would you do it? Put a tariff on goods entering from a country which does not meet our work ethics standards? That would just provoke a bout of protectionism and cripple the economy far more.

Or if you regulated it the law would have to be something like 'You may not buy XYZ from ABC' which can be constrewn of racist, would require constant updating and would place intolerable strains on import/export, since effectively things could change while something was in transit and thus be impounded and then shipped back...which would cost even more money.

 

I also don't have a problem with buying foreign goods, its more that if people were to be buying British Goods then the money stays inside Britain, rather than being sent round the world. Not only that more British people would be employed(or at least people living in Britain...we both, I suspect, know that we Brits only do work when we have to and thus most of our labour would be immigrant), which would improve the standard of living, the standard of education and probably the standard of life also.

 

None of that is terribly important to me, but other people see it as such. My perspective is more that 'If you are trading with another country it is inevitable that things you do in your country will effect things that happen in theirs. Therefore counts as interferance and should be prevented, if possible and minimised, if trade is necessary.


Well I knew you wouldn't agree. I know how you hate facing facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Have little regulation concerning wages, trade, businesses. However, have a highly unionized economy with very high taxes, funding a very generous social safety net/welfare state. This is good for businesses allowing them to grow and prosper, this is good for employees who have unions to counter corporate power, and this is good for the poor and unfortunate to get back on their feet again. This is also the model that Chile has been following, and it's been very successful in my opinion (CLICK). However, you have to get the conservatives of your respective country to accept the welfare state and the taxes needed to fund it. In the US, this isn't going to happen, so we have to rely on inefficient regulations that aren't enforced properly as they're usually left up to the states; this is bad for job and business growth. Meanwhile our rich and poor are separating at an alarming rate, causing a huge squeeze on the middle class.

 

So to recap: Good model--> Denmark.......Bad model--> United States

 

These are three fundamental things that work well together to destroy an economy. Labor unions in their current forms are essentially legal organized crime - getting a forced monopoly on a good, in this case labor, and then leveraging control over that good to screw over customers AKA the businesses. As a result, unions build their system of seniority and benefit not upon merit but upon union membership and seniority ( much like many oppressive governments that base work upon party membership). This ultimately creates a culture of mediocrity that is bad for business and ultimatley the employees themselves. The problem with high taxes should come as common sense, and welfare essentially discourages work, which obviously hurts everyone (including the small minority that actually needs welfare).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the children in some countries couldn't work they would starve. and yes sweatshops can be bad but compared to what? prostitution? Farming in the hot sun with less pay? Yes it can be bad but it's the best they have. Look at 1st world countries years ago, we had child labor but the countries economy had grown.

 

Now.. I think minimum wage should be abolished, in a free market prices and wages would be set by the market, not laws. if you make a business have to pay more for labor then they have to raise the price of the products causing inflation.


JfvHV.png

798M9.png

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

My new site. [bETA]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

America relies on sweatshops to survive. Pity. I'd like to say the world would be a better place without them and such crappy labour laws, but honestly, it's what makes the world go 'round. If anything, we need less friendly labour laws.


Quote

 

Quote

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion using sweatshop labor is a good idea. Keeping jobs in the US would just deny people in third-world counties employment and let them starve to death, not to mention hurt the companies who would be forced to pay more to create the goods. Obviously the current situation isn't ideal but you can't call it abusive if the sweatshop workers choose to work there.


Ah, this reminds me about the noob on the Runescape forums who was upset with the quest "Cold War" because apparently his grandparents died in the war. :wall:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.