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Panzerlord

Religous Extremism

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Not to be racist or stereotypical, but what group is best known for religous extremism? Probably Muslims because of events such as 9/11 and that thing with the cartoon with Muhammad. These religous extremists seek to create a society where religion is the answer to everything pretty much, and (in their case) the Koran is the law, discrimination against women and all. But I didn't really start this thread to talk about Islamic religous extremists.

What about Amerca?

The First Amendment in the Constitution discusses freedom of religion and worship among other things...and yet...why is gay marriage such a big issue? Mainly becase the bible says it's bad. I'm Jewish. I shouldn't be bound by a law based off of a bible passage, and if I were gay this would greatly infringe upon my abilty to pursue happiness. And after all, aren't we all supposed to be entitled to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?". Well, apparently not when the bible decides your way of pursuing happiness is bad.

A wise man once said, "our freedom ends where others' freedom begins.". I do not see how things like gay marriage infringe upon others' freedom, but I do see how freedom of worship for certain Christians restricts others' freedom, and that's when I begin thinking.

It may not be on a very large scale at all, nothing Taliban-esque, but are we as Americans really hipocrits when it comes to things such as religious extremism?

Please discuss.


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To an extent it is hypocritical but the issue is still brought up because America was creating on christian values and in the name of God. Basically, a lot of people still believe that the founding fathers' wishes should still be upheld while many think that isn't the case.


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Hypocrites are the people who do not believe they are hypocrites. The people who do not believe that are hypocrites are probably the hypocrites.


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To an extent it is hypocritical but the issue is still brought up because America was creating on christian values and in the name of God. Basically, a lot of people still believe that the founding fathers' wishes should still be upheld while many think that isn't the case.

That's true, but America has changed a pot since it was founded. I mean, for example religous tolerence back in the day was very low, and blacks? Enslaved! It's my

opinion that while keeping with the original intentions of the founding fathers is important, there will be certain changes that will require us to stray off of their idea of a country heavily based on Christian values if it becomes clear that Christian values are infringing upon the rights of the people.

Edit: almost forgot, thanks for getting rid of those trolls.


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To an extent it is hypocritical but the issue is still brought up because America was creating on christian values and in the name of God. Basically, a lot of people still believe that the founding fathers' wishes should still be upheld while many think that isn't the case.

That's true, but America has changed a pot since it was founded. I mean, for example religous tolerence back in the day was very low, and blacks? Enslaved! It's my

opinion that while keeping with the original intentions of the founding fathers is important, there will be certain changes that will require us to stray off of their idea of a country heavily based on Christian values if it becomes clear that Christian values are infringing upon the rights of the people.

Edit: almost forgot, thanks for getting rid of those trolls.

 

It's actually hard growing up Jewish in a Christian, American community. I gotta say I agree with you, based on my own experiences. I've never understood why gays are discriminated so badly in America, but I've also wished I could see how other people think.

 

P.S: I liked growing up in Israel a lot better than I like it in America :sad:


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...why is gay marriage such a big issue? Mainly becase the bible says it's bad. I'm Jewish. I shouldn't be bound by a law based off of a bible passage...

 

 

You're Jewish. Old Testiment still applies to us, buddy. We were the ones that wrote it. Sort of. Read up on your Leviticus.

 

But yeah, seperation of church and state would be a nice amendment to follow, wouldn't it?


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...why is gay marriage such a big issue? Mainly becase the bible says it's bad. I'm Jewish. I shouldn't be bound by a law based off of a bible passage...

 

 

You're Jewish. Old Testiment still applies to us, buddy. We were the ones that wrote it. Sort of. Read up on your Leviticus.

 

But yeah, seperation of church and state would be a nice amendment to follow, wouldn't it?

 

That's the thing though, there's some stuff people agree on, and some stuff in your own religion you decide against them.


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Ah, the good ol' [cabbage] storm over the Muhammad cartoon. You do know that the Dutch cartoonist that drew the picture had his house broken into not long ago by some illiterate Somali (who was sent by some extremist group) that tried to stab the man or something like that. I'm pretty sure it ended up with the bastard getting shot by the police because the cartoonist had beefed up security.

 

I'm not a fan of Islam at all. Then again, I'm not a fan of religion in general.


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It'd also be nice if people would properly address the two clauses to freedom of religion...

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Religious extremism, like religion itself, is a meme in society and a very persistent one, if there was a way to get rid of it we probably would've done so already.

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I'm pretty sure 9/11 is shadowed by the crusades.

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We definately hear a lot more about the muslim extremist groups. I remember watching a program about Westboro Baptist Church. Although it's not the same kind of extremism (Jihad/bombings/fighting or whatever), i'd still count them as an extremist group.


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We definately hear a lot more about the muslim extremist groups. I remember watching a program about Westboro Baptist Church. Although it's not the same kind of extremism (Jihad/bombings/fighting or whatever), i'd still count them as an extremist group.

 

Granted they are not affiliated with the universal Church, nor does the Church want them to be. As a learned Christian I have so much bone to pick with that group. Someone really should challenge them because their rights are not protected by the First.

 

Let's also remember that extremism in religion is like a bell curve. The numbers at the extremes are the lowest. It's a crime to compare the whole to it's smallest parts. The thing is, the more moderate religious groups are led by principles that have them do good for others and not seek the public eye for it. These extremists preach hatred and are very vocal, so they are what people see. It's very unfortunate.


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I'm pretty sure 9/11 is shadowed by the crusades.

 

 

I agree. The only reason 9/11 and the 'war on terror' is so well known is modern media. If the sort of media technology was around at the time of the Crusades, it would be the total opposite of what it is now. The crusades were an unashamed attack on everything non-christian, trying to impose its laws on the muslim world.


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In terms of who is most known in the modern day for religious extremism, it is muslims, definitely. But yes, the crusades were probably just as bad, back in the day. I think people were simply more used to repression then so it isn't thought of in the same way.

 

Like Bari said, religious extremists make up a tiny percent of the overall religious population. My parents are fervent catholics, and many of their friends and aquantances are, but I've never met anyone who I'd consider "extreme". In the same way, every single muslim person I've met has been a reasonable and respectful person.

 

As for the gay marriage debate, what you need to realize is that religious people see gay marriage as a sin. Whether it is a correct or incorrect opinion isn't really important - the goal of the church(catholic) in this regard is not to "discriminate" against homosexuals. I think people tend to view someone's opinion that gay marriage is wrong as a personal attack on homosexuals.

 

For example, I have several openly gay friends, and from day 1 I have been honest with them and told them I don't beleive in their way of life. It doesn't make me treat them with any less respect as people, and they accept that.

 

"Your freedom ends where another's begins." It's an interesting quote - you say gay rights (marriage in particular) doesn't infringe on anyone elses, but the side effects definitely do. For example, in Canada now it is considered a hate crime to openly be an opponent of gay marriage - therefore free speech is being supressed and people who wish to protest cannot do so without threat of punishment. Note: these are people like myself who do not "hate" gay people, rather prefer to keep the legal definition of marriage as something that can bear children in an environment condusive to their maturation as good citizens.

 

I don't mean to say that homosexuals can't raise good children - but I do mean to say that multiple studies have been done that show a child thrives in an environment where both a male and female parent are present. This is also why a large majority of criminals in our jails had a single parent or else an otherwise disruptive home environment.


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In terms of who is most known in the modern day for religious extremism, it is muslims, definitely. But yes, the crusades were probably just as bad, back in the day. I think people were simply more used to repression then so it isn't thought of in the same way.

 

Like Bari said, religious extremists make up a tiny percent of the overall religious population. My parents are fervent catholics, and many of their friends and aquantances are, but I've never met anyone who I'd consider "extreme". In the same way, every single muslim person I've met has been a reasonable and respectful person.

 

As for the gay marriage debate, what you need to realize is that religious people see gay marriage as a sin. Whether it is a correct or incorrect opinion isn't really important - the goal of the church(catholic) in this regard is not to "discriminate" against homosexuals. I think people tend to view someone's opinion that gay marriage is wrong as a personal attack on homosexuals.

 

For example, I have several openly gay friends, and from day 1 I have been honest with them and told them I don't beleive in their way of life. It doesn't make me treat them with any less respect as people, and they accept that.

 

"Your freedom ends where another's begins." It's an interesting quote - you say gay rights (marriage in particular) doesn't infringe on anyone elses, but the side effects definitely do. For example, in Canada now it is considered a hate crime to openly be an opponent of gay marriage - therefore free speech is being supressed and people who wish to protest cannot do so without threat of punishment. Note: these are people like myself who do not "hate" gay people, rather prefer to keep the legal definition of marriage as something that can bear children in an environment condusive to their maturation as good citizens.

 

I don't mean to say that homosexuals can't raise good children - but I do mean to say that multiple studies have been done that show a child thrives in an environment where both a male and female parent are present. This is also why a large majority of criminals in our jails had a single parent or else an otherwise disruptive home environment.

He has very good points.

 

Anyway, first of all, you aren't really a very good Jew if you don't follow the laws of the Old Testament, that's basically the handbook of your religion.

 

And anyway I think every major religion will always be extreme at one time or another. The Jews instated 'the ban' on people and they currently occupy Palestine as well as Golan Heights, and they use to control Southern Lebanon and the Sinai Peninsula in the name of "defense". As for Christians, we have the very well known Crusades and Spanish Inquisition. And lastly the extreme Muslims (a rare few) have done the 9/11 attacks, London bombings, etc. I'm sure in Far Eastern religions that are not syncretic with other religious beliefs there have also occurred massacres and extremism. It's human nature to want to preserve what one truly believes in, in addition to any personal gain.

 

By the way, just as a note for those who think 'jihad' means holy war, no, I think you've been reading too much wikipedia. Jihad is a struggle to be like God, and there are four types of jihad. "Holy war" is a corruption of jihad as-sayf (struggle of the sword, i.e. war) which the original instruction only allowed war for not person gain or whim but for the rooting out of persecution/threat.


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To an extent it is hypocritical but the issue is still brought up because America was creating on christian values and in the name of God. Basically, a lot of people still believe that the founding fathers' wishes should still be upheld while many think that isn't the case.

That's true, but America has changed a pot since it was founded. I mean, for example religous tolerence back in the day was very low, and blacks? Enslaved! It's my

opinion that while keeping with the original intentions of the founding fathers is important, there will be certain changes that will require us to stray off of their idea of a country heavily based on Christian values if it becomes clear that Christian values are infringing upon the rights of the people.

Edit: almost forgot, thanks for getting rid of those trolls.

 

What have you two been smoking? The founding fathers specifically stated that this wasn't a christian nation, and religious influence has been steadily increasing since then, not decreasing. In fact the main reason for people coming here was religious freedom.

 

Upholding the founding fathers wishes would mean having no religious interference in the government unlike what we have now.


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"Religious Freedom" to the founding fathers meant basically that the state was not going to tell you what you had to worship. Like in England, you were forced to follow the Church of England. They didn't want it to be like that, but that didn't mean religion influence in general was supposed to be eliminated.

 

Also, to them, "religious freedom" pretty much meant "you can be any type of Christian you want, or perhaps maybe even atheist."


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I think people are too paranoid over the religious influence on government. First of all, if you have religion you cannot seperate morality/an idea from your opinion of politics and your religion, it doesn't work like that. If we had a government isolated from religion we could only elect atheist/agnostic politicians, which would be a persecution against people of religion. Secondly, actual religious figures don't actually do anything in terms of politics of the USA. I remember a Bishop in my area said something something don't vote for Obama, and then the Gov threatened to remove the diocese's tax exemption. Third of all, religion brings morality, as well as in this current situation relief funds to Haiti, so it betters society as a whole.

 

And yes, the founding fathers were theists and they believed America was not a Christian nation, but they were wrong. Everyone in the USA is predominately Christian. All politicians are predominately Christian. Laws passed in the US have strong Judeo-Christian links from the get-go.


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The words in most holy books are occassionally misconstrued, and "Hidden Meanings" are found, which people then act upon.


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...why is gay marriage such a big issue? Mainly becase the bible says it's bad. I'm Jewish. I shouldn't be bound by a law based off of a bible passage...

 

 

You're Jewish. Old Testiment still applies to us, buddy. We were the ones that wrote it. Sort of. Read up on your Leviticus.

 

But yeah, seperation of church and state would be a nice amendment to follow, wouldn't it?

It's an amendment? Really? Find it.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

 

Also even not being religious I don't like the idea of gay marriage, heck gayness in general, I think if you were meant to be together you'd have been born with the plumbing to go together. Old fashioned, just mean whatever that's how i feel.


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To an extent it is hypocritical but the issue is still brought up because America was creating on christian values and in the name of God. Basically, a lot of people still believe that the founding fathers' wishes should still be upheld while many think that isn't the case.

That's true, but America has changed a pot since it was founded. I mean, for example religous tolerence back in the day was very low, and blacks? Enslaved! It's my

opinion that while keeping with the original intentions of the founding fathers is important, there will be certain changes that will require us to stray off of their idea of a country heavily based on Christian values if it becomes clear that Christian values are infringing upon the rights of the people.

Edit: almost forgot, thanks for getting rid of those trolls.

 

What have you two been smoking? The founding fathers specifically stated that this wasn't a christian nation, and religious influence has been steadily increasing since then, not decreasing. In fact the main reason for people coming here was religious freedom.

 

Upholding the founding fathers wishes would mean having no religious interference in the government unlike what we have now.

 

And besides, many of the founding fathers weren't Christians.


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In terms of who is most known in the modern day for religious extremism, it is muslims, definitely. But yes, the crusades were probably just as bad, back in the day. I think people were simply more used to repression then so it isn't thought of in the same way.

I don't see how the Crusades being greater than or equal to events such as 9/11 is relevant to the topic, although I do agree with you that the Crusades were fairly gruesome.

 

Like Bari said, religious extremists make up a tiny percent of the overall religious population. My parents are fervent catholics, and many of their friends and aquantances are, but I've never met anyone who I'd consider "extreme". In the same way, every single muslim person I've met has been a reasonable and respectful person.

That's true, but the problem begins when these extremists, whether they be minorities within their own religious groups or not, have the power necesary to affect others in ways that infringe upon their life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

 

As for the gay marriage debate, what you need to realize is that religious people see gay marriage as a sin. Whether it is a correct or incorrect opinion isn't really important - the goal of the church(catholic) in this regard is not to "discriminate" against homosexuals. I think people tend to view someone's opinion that gay marriage is wrong as a personal attack on homosexuals.

You're right, whether it is a correct or incorrect opinion isn't important, and you're also right that when people express their opinion that people tend to misconstrue that as discrimination. But the fact of the matter is that their opinion is grounded entirely in religion, and the United States believes in the seperation of Church and State, and in this case it appears as though the views of the Church, while only opinions, are affecting everyone who does not believe that gay marriage is a sin. If Christians believe that it's a sin, then Christians shouldn't engage in gay marriage, that's fine, but other groups who do not find gay marriage to be a sin should be able to freely engage in being gay.

 

For example, I have several openly gay friends, and from day 1 I have been honest with them and told them I don't beleive in their way of life. It doesn't make me treat them with any less respect as people, and they accept that.

Good for you, and that wasn't sarcasm. Seriously, it wasn't, even though it may have sounded like it was.

 

"Your freedom ends where another's begins." It's an interesting quote - you say gay rights (marriage in particular) doesn't infringe on anyone elses, but the side effects definitely do. For example, in Canada now it is considered a hate crime to openly be an opponent of gay marriage - therefore free speech is being supressed and people who wish to protest cannot do so without threat of punishment. Note: these are people like myself who do not "hate" gay people, rather prefer to keep the legal definition of marriage as something that can bear children in an environment condusive to their maturation as good citizens.

as you said earlier, religious extremists make up a tiny percent of the overall religious population. Similarly, the sentance makes sense if you remove the word "religious" from it entirely. It seems as though the law in Canada is more or less at the opposite end of the spectrum of extremism, and that's hardly an better than the side I'm arguing against, but Canada's approach is in my opinion a bad example. Gay marriage should be legal, but not everyone should have to like it, or even pretend to.

 

I don't mean to say that homosexuals can't raise good children - but I do mean to say that multiple studies have been done that show a child thrives in an environment where both a male and female parent are present. This is also why a large majority of criminals in our jails had a single parent or else an otherwise disruptive home environment.

Seeing as how homosexuality (to the best of my knowledge) is a fairly new trend, I doubt that current studies would be able to show that homosexuals tend to be unfit parents, although I could be entirely wrong, but I feel before we can reach this conclusion, new studies would have to be conducted.

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If Muslim extremism is the most well known it's because it's in current events. You can turn on the news and hear about the wars.

Personally, I think it isn't that there are more Muslim extremists but that they're getting publicized frequently.

 

Then again, you can find extremism in everything. If it's worth doing it's worth overdoing and all that.

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