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Demoli

Item Flipping

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Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

Would you apply wasted vote theory to the global warming issue? No, because it is not an all or nothing result. It is not "If the majority of people go green, then Global Warming will not occur. Conversely, if the majority emit excess greenhouse gases, Global Warming will occur." It is more "Each person contributes to global warming in one way or another."

 

It does not function on a macro-demographic level, only on an individual basis. Agreed. However, my point still stands.Otherwise the conclusion is that everything is inevitable based on the size of the human population. Not following you on this one. I am looking solely at the individual level, not the macro level. And my point still stands. You can't tell someone to "vote for Obama, and he will be elected." That is flawed; your voting of Obama will have absolutely no effect to his being elected, as I will cancel out your vote.

 

This conclusion is clearly flawed, as individuals such as Nobel, Einstein, Keppler, Freud, Bush and Tiger Woods influence humanity as a whole to some extent. In keeping with the "wasted vote" concept, their votes are worth much more than yours or mine.


"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms."

 

-Genghis Khan

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Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

Would you apply wasted vote theory to the global warming issue? No, because it is not an all or nothing result. It is not "If the majority of people go green, then Global Warming will not occur. Conversely, if the majority emit excess greenhouse gases, Global Warming will occur." It is more "Each person contributes to global warming in one way or another."

 

It does not function on a macro-demographic level, only on an individual basis. Agreed. However, my point still stands.Otherwise the conclusion is that everything is inevitable based on the size of the human population. Not following you on this one. I am looking solely at the individual level, not the macro level. And my point still stands. You can't tell someone to "vote for Obama, and he will be elected." That is flawed; your voting of Obama will have absolutely no effect to his being elected, as I will cancel out your vote.

 

This conclusion is clearly flawed, as individuals such as Nobel, Einstein, Keppler, Freud, Bush and Tiger Woods influence humanity as a whole to some extent. In keeping with the "wasted vote" concept, their votes are worth much more than yours or mine.

 

 

So you basically said you're only applying the theory on the individual level, not so the overall societal effects may be observed. That makes little to no sense.

 

"not an all or nothing result" ---> i chose my example with care. Flipping is not an all or nothing result either, every person's individual choice has a slight macro-economic impact. thus all my conclusions remain valid. :D

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So long as there are lazy people who are willing to pay a convenience fee, there will be people accepting these fees. Sure, in a perfect world where no one was despirate enough to put in an offer at max in order to get an item ASAP, then I would see flipping as 'scamming'. But when people stick offers in for max in order to get the items right away, they are essentially saying "the time I am saving is worth the potential GP I am losing from this transaction." Then I think "if you want to save time, why wouldn't I take that time and save you the effort but charge you for it?".

 

In a supply and demand economy, you will always have slightly inflated prices when you 'demand' a good or service ASAP.

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There will always be somebody who hates the idea of flipping, and there will be somebody who likes it. If you use a real life example, it would be like somebody buying out the Nintendo Wii's they can find around Christmas time the year they were released then selling them on Ebay for profit. I personally don't think it's right for somebody to do that in real life because that's outrageous and unfair for other people, but I do not see it being wrong in a game like Runescape. Honestly, this is just a game to play and the people who flip merchant are doing it because they enjoy it.

 

I used to do it back in World 2 fally when there were no trade limits. I was just a median for anybody who wanted a set of barrows fast. Without merchanters there would be a lot less trade going on than you would think. There's a large fraction of items in the game bought by merchanters flipping or investing, and without them selling items on the GE would take a lot longer than it does now.


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Lol at this thread. Flipping has been an art for years, nothing new. I think it's a fair way for legit merchants to make money, since it's another person's impatience which gives profit. Recently, the market has been slowly declining, so no, flipping isn't as good as it once was. I personally made 5%-8% a day with 200m+ investments, it's relatively safe as long as you stick with items that have demand and won't crash hard on you.

 

I can't really comment much more on this, I haven't merchanted/flipped for over 2 months

 

Wonder how you came about flipping... Hmm..

 

EDIT -

 

Vid on flipping

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvKSOFVTvfk&

 

Edit 2 -

 

Wow, reading half the replies, looks like tif is becoming like the rsof. No, flipping and manipulation work differently. Flipping is about riding the waves of the economy.

 

Say if 'x' item is rising, and a player is impatient to wait for 'x' item to sell for max, he'd sell it for mid price, for a convenience fee of potentially losing 5% of 'x' item's value. The player who bought it for mid price would profit because he was patient enough to wait for an impatient seller. <- This system does not FORCE people to buy an item for max, or sell for min. So technically, it's not stealing.

 

Manipulation works in a few stages

 

Leaders stock up on item, buying it a little above mid price for speedy buying.

Leaders announce item, a massive clan of hundreds of people offer for max, forcing the price to go up and not enough supply for mid trades to become possible, forcing prices up.

Leaders do nothing for a few ge updates.

Leaders tell ranks to dump, as well as dumping the items themselves. They do NOT announce this.

After the leaders have sold every single item to their clan, they announce the dump.

Leaders would've stocked up another item somewhere inbetween.

Repeat step 1.

 

The way manipulation works FORCES people to buy the manipulated item for max, because with so many offers, there will not be enough supply to make mid price offers possible, because max price offers always have priority.

 

This, is a pyramid scheme and technically stealing, flipping is not, just a new term for an old method of merchanting.

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I find this whole flipping thing annoying its quite annoying hearing people always fussing over losing a few hundred thousand on an item they bought. I mean when you buy an item its normally because you wanted it not because your concerned about losing or making money. People should just buy the items they want and keep them unless something better comes out and if you only bought the item to try it or because you were curious then don't complain about losing a little money.

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I find this whole flipping thing annoying its quite annoying hearing people always fussing over losing a few hundred thousand on an item they bought. I mean when you buy an item its normally because you wanted it not because your concerned about losing or making money. People should just buy the items they want and keep them unless something better comes out and if you only bought the item to try it or because you were curious then don't complain about losing a little money.

 

I'd say it's the merchant's right to profit off people who are impatient enough to accept they have to pay a little 'convenience fee'. I find it annoying people can fuss over flipping as if it's actually hurting the economy.

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I find this whole flipping thing annoying its quite annoying hearing people always fussing over losing a few hundred thousand on an item they bought. I mean when you buy an item its normally because you wanted it not because your concerned about losing or making money. People should just buy the items they want and keep them unless something better comes out and if you only bought the item to try it or because you were curious then don't complain about losing a little money.

flipping keeps the economy fluid.

it helps assure that there is always a stock of items ready for sale at slightly higher price, and buyers for just a slightly lower price.

Except in extreme examples like rares, staffs of light currently, where flipping doesn't apply.

 

If everybody held onto the weapons and armors the perceived supply would be much much less, and prices would be much higher.

Additionally, the economy would be less productive as a whole since people can't get the tools to hunt boss monsters, or train as effectively.

*everything* would become much more expensive.

 

losses from flipping are a small price to pay for an overall better economy for everybody

When prices drop, people sell their items. This is the market's way of weeding out the players who don't need the weapons as badly.

Only the players who actually use the item will be able to afford to keep it. Those who don't, will sell it to those who are more worthy.

 

then of course, there are those people who keep items regardless. Either the items is too trivial to them to be worth selling, or they're just unfit for the economy.


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I find this whole flipping thing annoying its quite annoying hearing people always fussing over losing a few hundred thousand on an item they bought. I mean when you buy an item its normally because you wanted it not because your concerned about losing or making money. People should just buy the items they want and keep them unless something better comes out and if you only bought the item to try it or because you were curious then don't complain about losing a little money.

flipping keeps the economy fluid.

it helps assure that there is always a stock of items ready for sale at slightly higher price, and buyers for just a slightly lower price.

Except in extreme examples like rares, staffs of light currently, where flipping doesn't apply.

 

If everybody held onto the weapons and armors the perceived supply would be much much less, and prices would be much higher.

Additionally, the economy would be less productive as a whole since people can't get the tools to hunt boss monsters, or train as effectively.

*everything* would become much more expensive.

 

losses from flipping are a small price to pay for an overall better economy for everybody

When prices drop, people sell their items. This is the market's way of weeding out the players who don't need the weapons as badly.

Only the players who actually use the item will be able to afford to keep it. Those who don't, will sell it to those who are more worthy.

 

then of course, there are those people who keep items regardless. Either the items is too trivial to them to be worth selling, or they're just unfit for the economy.

 

I agree with most of your post. Yes it's true, if everyone held onto items, the market would be alot tighter and it would technically force people to buy items for higher because the supply would be tied up.

 

I don't know what to say now, I'll leave this here.

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If I am looking into an item for buying or selling, then I will go check the graph. Depending on what it is, I might wait, or buy right away.

 

I don't spend my days searching the G.E. though for potential items to flip. I look out more for when I will need certain items.


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This probably happened when the Onyx and Furies started sky-rocketing, so I tried to buy a Fury for max (Which I did, however), and I was waiting til the end of my membership, that I would sell it.

 

I haven't sold it, and I don't think I'll ever sell it. its just so darn good! :thumbup:


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Barrows Items: 1x Dharok's Platelegs, 1x Veracs's Plateskirt, 1x Dharok's Greataxe, 2x Torag's Platelegs, 1x Akrisae's War Mace, 1x Ahrim's Robeskirt, 3x Akrisae's Robetop, 1x Guthan's Warspear, 1x Akrisae's Robeskirt, 1x Torag's Helm, 2x Verac's Brassard, 1x Karil's Pistol Crossbow

 

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Well, I like item flippers.

 

I can't sit around all day waiting for things like tarromin to sell, when I could have some kwuarm up in that spot, so when the item flipper buys that tarromin, they are saving me a slot at the ge/bank, which I can use while harder to sell/buy stuff waits all day, clogging up my GE slots.

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Well, I like item flippers.

 

I can't sit around all day waiting for things like tarromin to sell, when I could have some kwuarm up in that spot, so when the item flipper buys that tarromin, they are saving me a slot at the ge/bank, which I can use while harder to sell/buy stuff waits all day, clogging up my GE slots.

Flipper sell and resell. I can't see how they affect the supply or demand since it's basicly a back-forth situation. Remove the flipper and you still have the same amount of items. You put your item in at min, with a flipper you get your item instantly sold for a little under min. Without a flipper, you get it sold instantly for little under med. The so called "convenience fee" you are paying is only caused because flippers are buying the items BEFORE you at lower prices so you HAVE TO put max, to get it instantly. Without flippers buying all those items at, say, a little above mid price, you wouldn't need to pay max to get it instantly, but just a little above mid. It's the flippers who are causing you to have patience to get something at the "normal" price.

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I had no issues with it when people actually had to be in-game doing work, standing around world 2 trying to find a good bargain or someone wanting to get rid of an item quickly. However now people can just put an offer into the GE, come back a day later and sell it for slightly more.

 

(I do understand that the GE is really the only way to merch properly with the trade limits Jagex enforce. Perhaps i'm just pining for yesteryear).


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I find this whole flipping thing annoying its quite annoying hearing people always fussing over losing a few hundred thousand on an item they bought. I mean when you buy an item its normally because you wanted it not because your concerned about losing or making money. People should just buy the items they want and keep them unless something better comes out and if you only bought the item to try it or because you were curious then don't complain about losing a little money.

 

I'd say it's the merchant's right to profit off people who are impatient enough to accept they have to pay a little 'convenience fee'. I find it annoying people can fuss over flipping as if it's actually hurting the economy.

 

Just lol at this.

There is no flipping in RS.

Everybody colludes together in merchant clans that starve and flood the GE of daily goods like food, pots, raw materials, you name it.

I'm sick of it.

Since, Jagex incoveniences us by forcing everything through the GE and subject to capital pigitry, they ought to at least tighten up the limits on trade quanitities.

Its about time for so called merchants to feel some inconvenience and maybe if we are lucky they will quit.

And the game would be better off since its not like they play runescape anyway.


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He just successfully trolled you with "courtesy" and managed to get a reaction out of you. Lol

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Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

Would you apply wasted vote theory to the global warming issue? No, because it is not an all or nothing result. It is not "If the majority of people go green, then Global Warming will not occur. Conversely, if the majority emit excess greenhouse gases, Global Warming will occur." It is more "Each person contributes to global warming in one way or another."

 

It does not function on a macro-demographic level, only on an individual basis. Agreed. However, my point still stands.Otherwise the conclusion is that everything is inevitable based on the size of the human population. Not following you on this one. I am looking solely at the individual level, not the macro level. And my point still stands. You can't tell someone to "vote for Obama, and he will be elected." That is flawed; your voting of Obama will have absolutely no effect to his being elected, as I will cancel out your vote.

 

This conclusion is clearly flawed, as individuals such as Nobel, Einstein, Keppler, Freud, Bush and Tiger Woods influence humanity as a whole to some extent. In keeping with the "wasted vote" concept, their votes are worth much more than yours or mine.

 

 

So you basically said you're only applying the theory on the individual level, not so the overall societal effects may be observed. That makes little to no sense. Actually, doing things for the good of society makes little to no sense.

 

"not an all or nothing result" ---> i chose my example with care. Flipping is not an all or nothing result either, every person's individual choice has a slight macro-economic impact. thus all my conclusions remain valid. :D Wrong. Good try though. Once again, my statement is in regards to the "flipping is here to stay" concept. It is an all or nothing result.


"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms."

 

-Genghis Khan

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There is no flipping in RS.

Everybody colludes together in merchant clans that starve and flood the GE of daily goods like food, pots, raw materials, you name it.

I'm sick of it.

Since, Jagex incoveniences us by forcing everything through the GE and subject to capital pigitry, they ought to at least tighten up the limits on trade quanitities.

Its about time for so called merchants to feel some inconvenience and maybe if we are lucky they will quit.

And the game would be better off since its not like they play runescape anyway.

Sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about. You mean to tell me that every single item is controlled by merchant clans simultaneously? That's completely unfounded and untrue.

 

But I would agree that purchase quantities could be tightened - who needs 10 barrows armor pieces per four hours?

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So you basically said you're only applying the theory on the individual level, not so the overall societal effects may be observed. That makes little to no sense. Actually, doing things for the good of society makes little to no sense.

 

"not an all or nothing result" ---> i chose my example with care. Flipping is not an all or nothing result either, every person's individual choice has a slight macro-economic impact. thus all my conclusions remain valid. :D Wrong. Good try though. Once again, my statement is in regards to the "flipping is here to stay" concept. It is an all or nothing result.

 

That logic is fallacious. Flipping is not an "all or nothing" event. If I choose to flip, there is one more flipper, so more items are flipped. Flipping increases as does the inconvenience to others. You are the one at fault, and your try is creative, abeit disregards some vital factors.

 

you cannot selectively apply your theory to only a few events, for any logic or reasoning to function it must be applied unilaterally. Flipping is here to stay, but the effects of flipping are highly variable. That is where your theory is completely invalid, and your logic falls on its own premise.

 

My first statement makes COMPLETE sense, I must not have explained it clearly enough: you are selectively applying the theory. For every individual that chooses to flip, or not to flip, the overall societal effects of flipping change. If I put 3 billion into flipping rune plates, 3 billion gp more is spent on flipping rune plates, and the economic impact on rune plates is significant. With the GE system and individuals with capital, me flipping influences the prices and how they will update. I as an individual have a measurable efffect on that. I am not doing anything for the good for society, I perform an action, and it reflects upon society and how society develops.

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Well, I like item flippers.

 

I can't sit around all day waiting for things like tarromin to sell, when I could have some kwuarm up in that spot, so when the item flipper buys that tarromin, they are saving me a slot at the ge/bank, which I can use while harder to sell/buy stuff waits all day, clogging up my GE slots.

Flipper sell and resell. I can't see how they affect the supply or demand since it's basicly a back-forth situation. Remove the flipper and you still have the same amount of items. You put your item in at min, with a flipper you get your item instantly sold for a little under min. Without a flipper, you get it sold instantly for little under med. The so called "convenience fee" you are paying is only caused because flippers are buying the items BEFORE you at lower prices so you HAVE TO put max, to get it instantly. Without flippers buying all those items at, say, a little above mid price, you wouldn't need to pay max to get it instantly, but just a little above mid. It's the flippers who are causing you to have patience to get something at the "normal" price.

Well, apparantly you are interested in buying my tarromin at normal price then.

 

I'm not interested in coming online in another 4 hours so I can sell it at that price.

 

'Sides, if everything an item flipper buys at min is sold at max, no change from them in the GE price... AND they get the same commission I used to pay dedicated buyers to buy supplies for me before the GE... because... well, I'm not dealing with world 2 and trying to find a single dragon scimitar for a week, or someone interested in buying 2k unidentified herbs above a certain level.

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It is fine.

 

You buying a SOL, which was sold to you as a favor, and then turning around and flipping it isn't. :thumbsdown: for taking advantage of someone else's generosity.

 

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

 

If I profit, without breaking rules, I don't care if others have to spend more. I don't play for the sake of making others game easier, although I try to help with advice and such.


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So you basically said you're only applying the theory on the individual level, not so the overall societal effects may be observed. That makes little to no sense. Actually, doing things for the good of society makes little to no sense.

 

"not an all or nothing result" ---> i chose my example with care. Flipping is not an all or nothing result either, every person's individual choice has a slight macro-economic impact. thus all my conclusions remain valid. :D Wrong. Good try though. Once again, my statement is in regards to the "flipping is here to stay" concept. It is an all or nothing result.

 

That logic is fallacious. Flipping is not an "all or nothing" event. If I choose to flip, there is one more flipper, so more items are flipped. Flipping increases as does the inconvenience to others. You are the one at fault, and your try is creative, abeit disregards some vital factors.

 

you cannot selectively apply your theory to only a few events, for any logic or reasoning to function it must be applied unilaterally. Flipping is here to stay, but the effects of flipping are highly variable. That is where your theory is completely invalid, and your logic falls on its own premise.

 

My first statement makes COMPLETE sense, I must not have explained it clearly enough: you are selectively applying the theory. For every individual that chooses to flip, or not to flip, the overall societal effects of flipping change. If I put 3 billion into flipping rune plates, 3 billion gp more is spent on flipping rune plates, and the economic impact on rune plates is significant. With the GE system and individuals with capital, me flipping influences the prices and how they will update. I as an individual have a measurable efffect on that. I am not doing anything for the good for society, I perform an action, and it reflects upon society and how society develops.

 

 

*facepalm* You clearly missed both points.

 

Doing things for the good of society makes no sense and goes against everything that makes us human. So, if someone held a gun to your head, and told you that you must die so John can live, you would say "ok, I'll die" b/c John is doing more good for society? BS. You would fight to survive.

 

To say that people do things for society and not for themselves is ignorant at best.

 

 

"That logic is fallacious. Flipping is not an "all or nothing" event. If I choose to flip, there is one more flipper, so more items are flipped. Flipping increases as does the inconvenience to others. You are the one at fault, and your try is creative, abeit disregards some vital factors." Once again, you failed to miss what I was saying. The "all or nothing" means that flipping is either here, or it is not here. THAT was the comment I was referring to. Someone mentioned earlier that flipping is "here to stay", insinuating that it is, once again, all or nothing. Your example was something that is ALWAYS present, just in varying degrees.

 

Now, keep in mind I am not saying that I agree that flipping is an all or nothing event. My comment was merely in retort to the comment that flipping is here to stay.


"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms."

 

-Genghis Khan

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Doing things for the good of society makes no sense and goes against everything that makes us human. So, if someone held a gun to your head, and told you that you must die so John can live, you would say "ok, I'll die" b/c John is doing more good for society? BS. You would fight to survive.

 

To say that people do things for society and not for themselves is ignorant at best.

 

Actually, I'd probably bend that guy's arm backwards at the elbow so that he couldn't hurt John. I don't think I'd trust anyone to save John if they'd already shot me.

 

We do do things for society. It's what makes us social. Buy your friends a drink? yep, you'll do that. Give a friend a kidney? Sure, all that second one is doing is making you drunk half as long anyways. Give a dollar to someone who claims to be getting fresh water to haitian orphans.... well, don't want somebody to see us not doing that. Take a bullet for a compleate strange in the heat of the moment? Maybe. Offer your suicide in the form of political protest? Heck damn no, that's crazy talk.

 

As per these examples, the magnitude of the sacrifice does count.

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Doing things for the good of society makes no sense and goes against everything that makes us human. So, if someone held a gun to your head, and told you that you must die so John can live, you would say "ok, I'll die" b/c John is doing more good for society? BS. You would fight to survive.

 

To say that people do things for society and not for themselves is ignorant at best.

 

Actually, I'd probably bend that guy's arm backwards at the elbow so that he couldn't hurt John. I don't think I'd trust anyone to save John if they'd already shot me.

 

We do do things for society. It's what makes us social. Buy your friends a drink? yep, you'll do that. Give a friend a kidney? Sure, all that second one is doing is making you drunk half as long anyways. Give a dollar to someone who claims to be getting fresh water to haitian orphans.... well, don't want somebody to see us not doing that. Take a bullet for a compleate strange in the heat of the moment? Maybe. Offer your suicide in the form of political protest? Heck damn no, that's crazy talk.

 

As per these examples, the magnitude of the sacrifice does count.

 

 

We? You got a mouse in your pocket? :lol:

 

While that may be great, reality is humans as a whole are selfish. People do not do thinks for society, they do it for themselves. It is capitalism at it's best. It is what America was built off of.

 

 

 

 

Doubt it? Explain the current economy then.....


"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms."

 

-Genghis Khan

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Well sir, you are a pessimist.

 

Who never buys the drinks.

 

They wont say anything to your face about it.

 

But they know.

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Well sir, you are a pessimist.

 

Who never buys the drinks.

 

They wont say anything to your face about it.

 

But they know.

 

 

Pessimist or realist? I repeat, explain the world today. Heck, if you are more comfortable, explain RS today. It has been COMPLETELY changed from the beginning. How many of those changes have been in response to scanners, hackers, and cheaters?


"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms."

 

-Genghis Khan

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