Cheating... Or is it...?

[deyan2]

I haven't seen the first vid, but I have seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritgerm#p/u/4/gryRTDTfE4o

 

And tbh I don't see this as cheating...

I pray big bones the same way (that does go a little slower, but way faster then normal praying) and I should get very very angry if Jagex should ban me right now for macroïng because I didn't use any software at all.

I just clicked the 5 and the + as much as possible while moving my mouse above the bones and that's exactly what he seems to be doïng.

There is no illegal software involved, there are no Jagex rules broken, you do every single thing with your own hands and you are active behind the computer so... What's the problem?

[atestarossa]

I haven't seen the first vid, but I have seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritgerm#p/u/4/gryRTDTfE4o

 

And tbh I don't see this as cheating...

I pray big bones the same way (that does go a little slower, but way faster then normal praying) and I should get very very angry if Jagex should ban me right now for macroïng because I didn't use any software at all.

I just clicked the 5 and the + as much as possible while moving my mouse above the bones and that's exactly what he seems to be doïng.

There is no illegal software involved, there are no Jagex rules broken, you do every single thing with your own hands and you are active behind the computer so... What's the problem?

 

 

And here's what I think is the difference between legal and unlegal. If you press the mouse button (or the 5 and + button) as fast you can for cleaning, then it's legal, and just clicking skills.

But if you hold in a button, and that counts as a lot of repeated clicks, that would be against the rules. In the gray zone, but still against the rules.

[Codguy]

I haven't seen the first vid, but I have seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritgerm#p/u/4/gryRTDTfE4o

 

And tbh I don't see this as cheating...

I pray big bones the same way (that does go a little slower, but way faster then normal praying) and I should get very very angry if Jagex should ban me right now for macroïng because I didn't use any software at all.

I just clicked the 5 and the + as much as possible while moving my mouse above the bones and that's exactly what he seems to be doïng.

There is no illegal software involved, there are no Jagex rules broken, you do every single thing with your own hands and you are active behind the computer so... What's the problem?

 

 

And here's what I think is the difference between legal and unlegal. If you press the mouse button (or the 5 and + button) as fast you can for cleaning, then it's legal, and just clicking skills.

But if you hold in a button, and that counts as a lot of repeated clicks, that would be against the rules. In the gray zone, but still against the rules.

 

And to be even more specific:

 

If you are to hold down a button while typing, such as holding down a certain letter, you'll notice that the letters will be typed, but only at a certain rate. This is essentially what's being done in the video, HOWEVER, it is being done by programming the mouse, while holding down the button, to click at a rate of 9000x the normal rate. To me, this is the part that sounds fishy to me.

 

Also, while watching the video a few times, I was not under the impression that the video maker was moving his mouse, but either had something that was programmed to move in a certain way, or was using mousekeys to jump to each column. Remember, he was able to move over all 28 herbs (although, not entirely sure, but looked like he only did 24 herbs per inventory) within 0.9 seconds apparently, and doing it accurately, as to not miss one. So, overall it sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

But I still am 100% sure that the mouse is perfectly legal, however, the way it's being used makes it seem like there's more than meets the eye.

 

And also, as atestarossa mentioned about the video by spiritgerm, which I posted earlier this in thread, the same thing is being done, but in a different fashion. He is doing the same thing to hold down a button/key on the mouse, which allows to click constantly. However, it is clear that he is manually moving his mouse around, and is not using the 9000x click rate, and most probably a 1x click rate. This seems perfectly legal to me.

[atestarossa]

The problem if you are going to enforce the rules like that though, will be where to put the line.

 

What about something that clicks. 100x regular speed? 50x? 10, or even 2x "regular" speed.

I can set my speed on my keyboard at varying speeds as well.

It's much easier to say that holding in a button to get repeated clicks are forbidden, just for the sake of enforcing. Similar things are done with other of the rules anyway.

[Danqazmlp]

The problem if you are going to enforce the rules like that though, will be where to put the line.

 

What about something that clicks. 100x regular speed? 50x? 10, or even 2x "regular" speed.

I can set my speed on my keyboard at varying speeds as well.

It's much easier to say that holding in a button to get repeated clicks are forbidden, just for the sake of enforcing. Similar things are done with other of the rules anyway.

 

 

That is exactly what people are saying. If you hold down a button and get multiple clicks, it should be against the rules.

[pulli23]

The problem if you are going to enforce the rules like that though, will be where to put the line.

 

What about something that clicks. 100x regular speed? 50x? 10, or even 2x "regular" speed.

I can set my speed on my keyboard at varying speeds as well.

It's much easier to say that holding in a button to get repeated clicks are forbidden, just for the sake of enforcing. Similar things are done with other of the rules anyway.

 

 

That is exactly what people are saying. If you hold down a button and get multiple clicks, it should be against the rules.

holds down a to get a double a-char...

[stonewall337]

I agree with Bedman. Borderline cheating. The guy definitely shouldn't be banned or anything, but the way we clean herbs NEEDS to change. It's one of the last remnants of ClickScape (or RSIscape).

 

We need a clean-x.

 

I have to agree. I was actually thinking much the same thing. The fact that such a feat is possible isn't a problem that cheaters are causing, but a problem with how the game is designed. Clean-x would be very fail though.

 

And Danz, that is asinine. You do the same thing when typing @@@@ or ...

 

The problem is with the system that allows this, not with the people using mousekeys.

[Unknown_Warrior]

Would this be cheating guys?

 

 

This is me using Mousekeys. No add-on program, just holding two keys at once (applying constant pressure to the 2 and half-assed to the 5).

Just so you know, this was one of the best things ever to find out myself. I've not regretted cleaning 20,000 herbs this way.

 

But that being said, why the negative response? Jagex has said multiple times that Mousekeys are legit, so why not utilise them to the best effect?

[3PointMan]

Would this mouse work for this this or is it only the G5? It seems the one I bought is defective.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104318&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Mouse-_-Logitech-_-26104318

[bedman]

Would this be cheating guys?

 

 

This is me using Mousekeys. No add-on program, just holding two keys at once (applying constant pressure to the 2 and half-assed to the 5).

Just so you know, this was one of the best things ever to find out myself. I've not regretted cleaning 20,000 herbs this way.

 

But that being said, why the negative response? Jagex has said multiple times that Mousekeys are legit, so why not utilise them to the best effect?

wait, was it you who did this in the removed video?

[3PointMan]

No bed that wasnt him/ He is doing it much slower. Thats around 12k herbs/hr, and he is moving the mouse. This mouse automatically jumped to the next row.

[PraetorDei]

You can go over to the other post and read the multiple entries related to the programmable mouse and whether or not it is "cheating" to use it.

From my perspective, those who claim it IS cheating base their reasoning on this: When Jagex says "What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? " look at rule #3.

Rule #3 says "Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

And thus a programmable mouse appears to be in violation, yes?

 

But there is a problem here. All input to the game applets is via software. Anytime you buy a mouse (wired, wireless, 2 button, 3 button, dial wheel, track ball, etc.) there is NORMALLY a CD-ROM supplied with the mouse. You install the mouse software to properly make use of the mouse, and so that the operating system will respond to the inputs from the mouse.

 

Here is the problem. Whenever you use the mouse to provide input to the game applet -- it is SOFTWARE that generates that input. Without the software, your mouse clicks and moves will do NOTHING. It is software that interprets the mouse actions, software that generates the inputs to the game applets. Most humorously, the Jagex rule 3 bans the use of the very software that every single mouse used by every single Runescape gamer uses.

 

Now presumably that was not the intent of the rule. But that is what the rule, strictly interpreted, says. It says you can't use software to generate input to the game applets. But of course all inputs to the game applets are driven by software -- by 3rd party software -- all the time for every single user of the game. Without exception. It is 3rd party software that moves the mouse pointer. It is 3rd party software that generates the mouse clicks as inputs to the game applets. That is reality, that is how it actually works.

 

So. I am not a lawyer -- but I have been working in one form or another computers for more than 30 years, and I find the expressed language from the rule -- unfortunate.

 

Now. Shift of topic. (Yes, I am going to express two topics in one thread.)

I think this merely exposes a deeper problem. In terms of the user interface for the game, Jagex clearly follows standard software industry practice and optimizes certain user driven repetitive actions.

(1) When you melee, you don't have to click for each weapon swing.

(2) When you range, you don't have to click for each arrow shot.

(3) When you cast offensive combat spells, you don't have to click for each cast.

(4) When you fish, you don't have to click each time you cast the line or thrust the harpoon

(5) When you fish, you don't have to bait the hook between each fish

(6) When you cook, you don't have to click to cook each item of the same type

(7) When you smelt in a furnace, you don't have to click to smelt each ore to a bar

(8) When you chop wood, you don't have to click for each stroke of the hatchet or between each set of logs

 

This makes sense and is what would be expected. What does not make sense are things like -- you have to click each time to make a fire, you can't "empty pack" in one click (unless it is into a bank deposit), etc. These appear to be artificial limitations, and strangely players who have played the game a long time and put up with them defend them. Apparently along the line of -- if it was hard for me it should be hard for you -- or it would devalue a skill if it was made "easier" etc. That's exactly like arguing -- we should never have installed automatic transmissions in cars because that's not fair to everyone who had to spend years driving a stick shift. They had to suffer with a stick shift so you should also! Bah.

 

That's all I have to say on that.

[Toad]

No need to make multiple topics.

[stonewall337]

Smelly, this is actually a topic discussing rule 3 and its interpretation, not only the mouse in the other topic.

 

People on Tif seem so scared to start a topic which could even remotely be seen as being similar to another topic.

[Maxingmck]

K so it is against the rules to use anything that isnt an add on that will help you on Rs excluding swiftkit etc

 

So basicly using a special mouse/program/etc is against the rules

 

If some technology is helping the player have an advantage it is against the rules

 

End

[Danqazmlp]

As somebody said to me yesterday (or was it the day before?), The RS community would make excellent lawyers because they are able to find loopholes in anything.

 

What the JMOD said the other day is basically what people should adhere to, one input, one output. If holding down a button creates multiple outputs, such as holding down the letter 'a' on your keyboard, it should not be used to play the game. Now I know people will find ways around this, but that is how i and i think a lot of others interoperate the rules.

 

On the question of mouse-keys, if used correctly they are perfectly legal, but if used in a way which creates multiple outputs to the game, then it is not.

[Peronix]

It really depends on how you define "one input". Who says repeatedly clicking your mouse is "multiple inputs" any more than holding down the button? It's just that one causes carpal tunnel, and the other doesn't. Being told you can't use a better input device and forced to strain yourself I find a bit inhuman. Of course Jagex has provided "x" methods for stuff like stringing bows, but frankly NOBODY wants them to continue this trend because they are both unreasonably slow and mandatory. So they either want you sacrifice your health or an unreasonable amount of time. Great. Can't have both now can we? That wouldn't be "balanced".

[sees_all1]

It really depends on how you define "one input". Who says repeatedly clicking your mouse is "multiple inputs" any more than holding down the button? It's just that one causes carpal tunnel, and the other doesn't. Being told you can't use a better input device and forced to strain yourself I find a bit inhuman. Of course Jagex has provided "x" methods for stuff like stringing bows, but frankly NOBODY wants them to continue this trend because they are both unreasonably slow and mandatory. So they either want you sacrifice your health or an unreasonable amount of time. Great. Can't have both now can we? That wouldn't be "balanced".

No, this is very easy to define.

 

In java, when you click your mouse, you produce up to three MouseEvents - MOUSE_PRESSED, MOUSE_RELEASED, MOUSE_CLICKED. If you move your mouse, you produce up to two more events - MouseMotionEvents, called MOUSE_MOVED, and MOUSE_DRAGGED.

But, this is the key - A normal player that clicks their mouse will only produce one of each event. If you hold your mouse down for 10 minutes, only one MOUSE_PRESSED event will show up. When you release your mouse, only one MOUSE_RELEASED and one MOUSE_CLICKED event will show up.

For the keyboard, there is KEY_PRESSED, KEY_RELEASED, and KEY_TYPED. It is very similar to how the mouse works.

For this guy to generate events at 9000x the regular speed, an action that should have produced one KEY_PRESSED, one KEY_RELEASED, and one KEY_TYPED event produces 9000 of them. This is modifying input so that one input does not equal one output.

 

The guy that did this with the touch screen was banned, he broke the rules for macroing. What I saw in the video looked to be the same thing - macroing. Unfortunately, we could not see what his hands were doing, so its impossible to tell how much was automated, and how much was "skill". I'm willing to bet that more than 90% was automated, and that he was breaking the rules.

[Mecakoto]

It's like making a Tool Assisted Run of a Snes game and trying to submit it as a world record. You're doing something that no human in the world can do without the assistance of the program. Because of that, the World Record run is inadmissible.

 

Same concept here: You're doing something that no human can do without some for of assistance. You're using a tool to help you along with playing the game. You should be banned if you use something like this.

 

To those who do not know what a Tool Assisted Run is, think of your favorite retro game and type it's name with TAS into Youtube. If you get nothing, try using Super Run instead of TAS.

[killotroll]

You can go over to the other post and read the multiple entries related to the programmable mouse and whether or not it is "cheating" to use it.

From my perspective, those who claim it IS cheating base their reasoning on this: When Jagex says "What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? " look at rule #3.

Rule #3 says "Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

And thus a programmable mouse appears to be in violation, yes?

 

But there is a problem here. All input to the game applets is via software. Anytime you buy a mouse (wired, wireless, 2 button, 3 button, dial wheel, track ball, etc.) there is NORMALLY a CD-ROM supplied with the mouse. You install the mouse software to properly make use of the mouse, and so that the operating system will respond to the inputs from the mouse.

 

Here is the problem. Whenever you use the mouse to provide input to the game applet -- it is SOFTWARE that generates that input. Without the software, your mouse clicks and moves will do NOTHING. It is software that interprets the mouse actions, software that generates the inputs to the game applets. Most humorously, the Jagex rule 3 bans the use of the very software that every single mouse used by every single Runescape gamer uses.

 

Now presumably that was not the intent of the rule. But that is what the rule, strictly interpreted, says. It says you can't use software to generate input to the game applets. But of course all inputs to the game applets are driven by software -- by 3rd party software -- all the time for every single user of the game. Without exception. It is 3rd party software that moves the mouse pointer. It is 3rd party software that generates the mouse clicks as inputs to the game applets. That is reality, that is how it actually works.

 

So. I am not a lawyer -- but I have been working in one form or another computers for more than 30 years, and I find the expressed language from the rule -- unfortunate.

 

The key word is "automatically" - not "software".

[Awkward Talking Fish]

If jagex wanted you to be able to click lots with 1 click they would have allowed you to hold down click for lots of clicks..

[3PointMan]

I was talking to him and I got proof that it is NOT a bot! You input EVERYTHING! I have tested it myself! if anyone here owns G5/G500 logitech mouse, this is how you get 250k herb xp/hr and 500k profit/hr OR 2.7m fletching xp/hr (addy bolts, -3gp/.xp) I'll try to make a video but I dont have a youtube that I can upload it (my youtube is strictly xbox only)

 

 

In the herblore one, where he says 6, 5858. 6, switches the row and 58 moves it down and clicks.

 

 

DISCUSS. By the way, I think many of you owe Stonewall337 an apology =D

[Jacks0n]

Good find 3PM. This is very interesting.

[Obtaurian]

Clean-x would be very fail though.

 

Nahhh, I would totally use it, but I wonder what would happen to the relationship between grimy and clean herbs in terms of price.

[Danqazmlp]

No need for two topics, and I still find it incredibly hard to believe you can do that within 0.9 seconds. Try pressing 28 buttons in 0.9 seconds yourself. Even just palming your keyboard won't do it. If you can re-create it yourself and give a full explanation then i might just believe it, but until then, i do not.