Cheating... Or is it...?

[pulli23]

@ILoveyews:

read my post: in programming paradigm used for JAVA language (and most OO languages for that matter) black-boxes are the driving force. In this case the human player + mouse device are both non-controlled, and hence should be seen as 1 black box.. The program thus should only give input to that black box (screen), and expect some output (mouse clicks). Now how they are given does not matter, and should not matter (otherwise you're defeating the paradigm and you should consider either using a new language or reschooling yourself so you can take advantage of the language and its features completely): it's still multiple input the program receives.

It's up to the program itself to disable this (by creating a max number of inputs / second for example.. Or to slow down the actual cleaning of herbs)

Why would Jagex refer to a paradigm that most of its player base wouldn't understand?

Exactly, I have no idea what Pulli said. But what I take From the J Mod's post is that because it takes one click to clean a herb, a person much make one click to clean every herb. I don't care about your black boxes and paradigms. All I see is using a program to convert one input to 28 outputs.

 

You're talking like an ignorant, whining baby now lol..*EW I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, but I'm too lazy to read up anything and will just make fun of it so I look more cool*

First of all like I said: there is no conversion done! - Your mouse also gives multiple outputs! - However the driver of your mouse simply smooths these clicks out to a single "press - hold - release" events for windows. Now that specific mouse (button) apparantly won't smooth out the actions and give the event multiple times. (so what). - If anything this should be considered a BUG, and it could be classified as bug abuse (I tried to explain it the whole time that such problems should be handled by the APPLET)

 

Those paradigms are there for a reason you know, the same reason as there are 100+ languages for different purposes. Using the correct language and programming paradigm helps ironing out bugs, improves readability of your code, creates a smaller "plastered" code which in turn increases maintainability. And especially the black-box paradigm, if followed correctly, always ensures any update only has effect on itself (and directly affected other things). Meaning easier implementations of big new parts (since each part can be considered a black box on its own: thus its internal failure won't cause a failure somewhere else).

And actually carefully planning out all black-boxes before starting to write a program will prevent things like this.

[Danqazmlp]

The way he is using the mouse to do it as far as i can understand is that he has made a certain button on his mouse lock a mousekey down which is making the game think he is clicking the mouse at an astounding speed, when in fact he is just holding down one button and moving the mouse. This is the software making an input, not him, which is not allowed. I think it is fine for a user to use hardware to their benefit if they can as long as they are making the actions that the game recognises. As soma has stated, his mouse makes his clicks much more accurate, but he is still making the inputs on the mouse which the game is recognising.

 

I do agree that the system should be changed to stop this happening, and in the majority of runescape it could not with the game working in it's set 'ticks', but a few activities bypass those.

[Soma2035]

@ILoveyews:

read my post: in programming paradigm used for JAVA language (and most OO languages for that matter) black-boxes are the driving force. In this case the human player + mouse device are both non-controlled, and hence should be seen as 1 black box.. The program thus should only give input to that black box (screen), and expect some output (mouse clicks). Now how they are given does not matter, and should not matter (otherwise you're defeating the paradigm and you should consider either using a new language or reschooling yourself so you can take advantage of the language and its features completely): it's still multiple input the program receives.

It's up to the program itself to disable this (by creating a max number of inputs / second for example.. Or to slow down the actual cleaning of herbs)

Why would Jagex refer to a paradigm that most of its player base wouldn't understand?

Exactly, I have no idea what Pulli said. But what I take From the J Mod's post is that because it takes one click to clean a herb, a person much make one click to clean every herb. I don't care about your black boxes and paradigms. All I see is using a program to convert one input to 28 outputs.

 

Let me ask you this instead. Hypothetically, this weekend, I purchase 7 standard mouses. Then, I disassemble said mouses. With my (basic) woodworking skills, I fashion a rack to hold the left click keys, as well as the appropriate hardware components from inside the mouses, in a precise and carefully measured pattern. My laptop has the capability of utilizing more than one mouse at once, so I attach my trackball mouse and position it on the left, and this new made rack on the right.

 

I roll my right index finger from left to right along the panel, hitting all 7 keys, while i scroll the mouse down with my left hand (slightly ambidextrous when it comes to mouses, but don't ask me to write left-handed ;)). The result is, within the space of about a quarter of a second, I "clicked" all 7 of the herbs in one column.

 

This is exactly what the player in the video is doing, albeit, with a fancy mouse with keyboard keys + mousekeys, instead of the dis- and re-assembly of seven individual mouses. There's no software involved beyond mousekeys, which Jagex has confirmed permissible, and isn't necessary anyways.

 

The problem is that fletching bolts and cleaning herbs is dependent purely on how fast you can click. This means arranging your hardware, or better hardware, that allows you to click faster will get you a significant advantage. If you feel this is an injustice, then the blame is purely upon the mechanic that is biased towards those who can click faster. Add a cool down with an animation, like with all the ___-X abilities, and you don't have a problem anymore.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Okay, so I read the last couple posts and appearantly I'm missing something. Is the player physicly clicking the mouse every time a herb gets cleaned? I know that he is moving the mouse, but does he initiate the click? Or how does it work?

 

And Pulli, I'm not trying to sound like that. What I'm trying to say is that Jagex impliments 'blanket rules' that cover a large number of things withing one simply written rule and people are getting too techical. If Jagex had to lay out every sub-rule we would have hundreds upon hundreds of rules. When I read Jagex's anti-macro rule I see this as a violation of it.

[3PointMan]

so does anyone know if i need the numeric pad or not?

[Robert_R]

so does anyone know if i need the numeric pad or not?

You do for mousekeys but I don't think you do for this mouse. But I'm not entirely sure about the mouse....

[stonewall337]

Define what type of macro is against the rule? By Macro, most people mean a program which controls your character without any input from you, am I right? This is not a program for one. Secondly, the person is still in control of his account. Lastly, he is still moving the mouse himself, to some extent, much as you still control mouse keys.

[3PointMan]

Can we stop pointless arguing. Olly is trying to get word for Jmods so just be patient.

 

CAN anyone answer my question? I paid for one of these and the order is pending, so If I cant use it I need to cancel immediatly.

[muggiwhplar]

Without taking a side, I'd like to predict that after receiving a crystal clear statement from Jagex regarding this debate, people will continue to get upset about it and debate it-- though they will no longer be debating whether or not it's against the rules, they'll then debate if Jagex's decision is valid or not to them.

 

Moral of the story: nobody on these forums is ever content lol

[rangeor]

Can we stop pointless arguing. Olly is trying to get word for Jmods so just be patient.

 

CAN anyone answer my question? I paid for one of these and the order is pending, so If I cant use it I need to cancel immediatly.

Why don't you try to find an answer by doing your own research?

[ilovecuttingyews]

Define what type of macro is against the rule? By Macro, most people mean a program which controls your character without any input from you, am I right? This is not a program for one. Secondly, the person is still in control of his account. Lastly, he is still moving the mouse himself, to some extent, much as you still control mouse keys.

The part of the rule that pertains to this is:

3.Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

Even though the mouse is hardware, there has to be some sort of program that you use to assign certain actions to the buttons. And that's that part that I see is agaisnt the rules. Multiple funtions for 1 click.

[Patr1ck]

High tech gaming mouse on a low tech game = PWN.

[atestarossa]

Define what type of macro is against the rule? By Macro, most people mean a program which controls your character without any input from you, am I right? This is not a program for one. Secondly, the person is still in control of his account. Lastly, he is still moving the mouse himself, to some extent, much as you still control mouse keys.

3.Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

Even though the mouse is hardware, there has to be some sort of program that you use to assign certain actions to the buttons. And that's that part that I see is agaisnt the rules. Multiple funtions for 1 click.

 

 

I understood it to be the total opposite. He assigns several buttons for the same command, not several commands for the same button.

Much like if you said that when you click, "a" and "s" on your keyboard, you will do a left click with your mouse. Just on his mouse, not his keyboard.

I don't think it is unlegal, at least not now. But after seeing how big an advantage this gives, then Jagex will probably either ban the use of re-directed buttons like this (would this then allow using a dvorak keyboard for writing?)

or they will, as several persons here have said, make activities dependent on click-speed, a firm activity/minute rate. Much like other skills.

[3PointMan]

rangeor, i've spent the last 30 minutes hitting up google and I can't find an answer. Was wondering if anyone here knew.

[Danqazmlp]

It utilises mouse keys in some way, so whatever you need for mousekeys to work you will need if you want to do it. But i will admit, if you have ordered the mouse solely for this it is money badly spent as it has a high chance of being against the rules. But if you want it for general use then fair enough

[Patr1ck]

rangeor, i've spent the last 30 minutes hitting up google and I can't find an answer. Was wondering if anyone here knew.

 

On the fact of it's legality, I doubt Jagex will consider this illegal considering they allow programmable keyboards to be used like mine, where I can assign any keys in any order I like to make doing things like dropping one flowing pattern of keystrokes.

[Danqazmlp]

rangeor, i've spent the last 30 minutes hitting up google and I can't find an answer. Was wondering if anyone here knew.

 

On the fact of it's legality, I doubt Jagex will consider this illegal considering they allow programmable keyboards to be used like mine, where I can assign any keys in any order I like to make doing things like dropping one flowing pattern of keystrokes.

 

But he is not doing that. what he is doing is tricking the game into thinking he is clicking the mouse x number of times a second when in fact he is holding down one button. Assigning keys is perfectly legal as you have to manually press them in order for an action to take place.

[J35u5_M4]

How is he even doing that?, like pressing a bunch of buttons in a specific order or what?

 

I wouldn't consider cheating, but I if was at JaGeX I would ban it because it would just make things SO EASIER, like...200m Fletching XP (Even though it is "easy") would be done in what, a day? It would kind of ruin the game, I would ban this thing and allow the use of mousekeys

[Soma2035]

rangeor, i've spent the last 30 minutes hitting up google and I can't find an answer. Was wondering if anyone here knew.

 

On the fact of it's legality, I doubt Jagex will consider this illegal considering they allow programmable keyboards to be used like mine, where I can assign any keys in any order I like to make doing things like dropping one flowing pattern of keystrokes.

 

But he is not doing that. what he is doing is tricking the game into thinking he is clicking the mouse x number of times a second when in fact he is holding down one button. Assigning keys is perfectly legal as you have to manually press them in order for an action to take place.

 

Are you sure that's the case? My understanding was that he was assigning multiple buttons to being a left click button, and simply swiping his finger along those buttons.

 

Like, if the keys A, Z, S, X, D, and C were all left click buttons, you could easily strike all 6 and essentially click 6 times in quick succession, much faster than you would be able to normally, but you're still pressing all 6 keys.

[Bladewing]

Would be cool to get your mouse wheel to be assigned alternating "down" and "click" mousekeys, so one could just hold control and scroll the wheel. One input/output, looks fine to me.

[Maxingmck]

Its cheating

[Danqazmlp]

rangeor, i've spent the last 30 minutes hitting up google and I can't find an answer. Was wondering if anyone here knew.

 

On the fact of it's legality, I doubt Jagex will consider this illegal considering they allow programmable keyboards to be used like mine, where I can assign any keys in any order I like to make doing things like dropping one flowing pattern of keystrokes.

 

But he is not doing that. what he is doing is tricking the game into thinking he is clicking the mouse x number of times a second when in fact he is holding down one button. Assigning keys is perfectly legal as you have to manually press them in order for an action to take place.

 

Are you sure that's the case? My understanding was that he was assigning multiple buttons to being a left click button, and simply swiping his finger along those buttons.

 

Like, if the keys A, Z, S, X, D, and C were all left click buttons, you could easily strike all 6 and essentially click 6 times in quick succession, much faster than you would be able to normally, but you're still pressing all 6 keys.

 

Well he manages to click 28 herbs in 0.9 seconds, while moving the mouse along all the herbs. It surely is not possible to hit or press buttons that quickly. If it was maybe 5 or 6 then it would be possible, but 28 is not.

[sees_all1]

Whatever he is doing is programmed - There is no hardware that will do that.

Because it is programmed, it is third party software.

 

If he's allowed to do this, I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that in software, which triggers when I hit some key, maybe a function key?

 

 

 

 

The simple fix to this is on Jagex's side - don't allow more than one or two actions per update. That way, they'll be forced to doing tasks at the same speed as the rest of us.

[Squisher_33]

i personaly think it will be allowed but just patched, i think theyle make more and mroe bolts fletch 10, just like broad, and maybe even a clean x option thats about as fast as mixing pots

[Gandorf61]

It's like one of those third party controllers you can buy for your gaming systems that have the built in turbo buttons. Basically by pressing and holding down the programmed button the game receives a continuous stream of left clicks so all the player has to do is move the mouse across the herbs quickly. This is entirely different from mouse keys where you actually have to press the button every single time you want a click to occur.

 

Now if according to Jagex's rules one input has to equal one output, the mouse breaks the rules. Physically the player would only press the button once (one input) and would be able to clean all the herbs (28 outputs). In order for the button to act like a sticky button, inputting a continuous stream of clicks, there would have to be some sort of software which would in turn violate Jagex's rule on 3rd party software usage.

 

Unless Jagex flat out says this isn't against the rules I think it would be safe to assume that it isn't allowed for now.