Fansite Support (Re-launch)

[das]

We wanted to clarify other things such as the video game forum and wow thread and other content before jumping in head first ignorantly making a mistake.

I don't know what's most amazing about this statement:

 

1. That you would non-chalantly make it and apparently not think it's a big deal;

2. That you would say it in the same thread where you said Jagex wouldn't have influence over site content;

3. That 90% of the people here don't care about this, or anything else, as long as Tip.it gets its name on the marquee ("platinum").

 

Quite depressing.

 

 

1) It's not a big deal because

A) They never wanted to impede or stop discussion for other games, we checked on it because some people like me are rather paranoid and distrusting

B) We did not rush in to Jagex's arms blindly - we had quite a bit of research to do about advertising on our side, I believe we have been contemplating replacing google ads for awhile anyway

C) Jagexs only concern is the advertisements - however shallow or odd it may be, they have no interest in controlling the times, our censors , our forums or anything else we do- we did check - not because we felt it was demanded of us ,but because people like *me* are *paranoid* and want things checked.

 

2) Advertisements are not actual content to me, sure they are on the website, but they are not creative pieces of work that we produce for our users, but banners no one cares about until they are removed it seems. We did research, it's not going to hurt our advertising, and I highly doubt anyone came here for gaming advertisements (well, maybe evony advertisements late night ;) )

 

3) I think there is a point to care, I think it's over the top and a bit silly, but not unreasonable enough to get worked up over - but thats coming from my side where i obviously have more information than I can share.

 

 

This oddly enough reminds me of sports card collecting.

 

 

2005/2006 people were outraged donruss lost it's ability to make MLB/NFL Cards

Upper Deck - an industry Giant - is caught forging YU GI OH hologram cards - sued by Konami

UD Loses it's MLB, NFL, NBA rights.

Panini (the sticker company who bought out donruss) Gains NFL, NBA MLB rights.

UD will probably go out of buisness

Collectors who have slammed UD for years, are now enraged UD is gone and donruss is around.

 

Doesn't make sense - sort of like this whole situation, I understand there is some pretty ambiguous ways to draw up some evil sinister conspiracies - But we checked before agreeing to remove advertisements

 

No conspiracy exist and nothing else is required.

[Romy]

Okay I was taking a month or so away from the game and fansites but I got told about this topic, RuneScapes first fansite, gold?! Runevillage Zybez and Tip.it have been here an eternity and actually helped to develop players more so then recent fansites taht have got platinum status, but I guess the usefulness of website the quality of content doesn't count for anything, more so of what fansites the Jmods go to wow.

 

Bleh...you should really bother to read these things.

 

Basically, it's an advert-thingy. Jaggy requested X from Tip.It, at first Tip.It didn't take it, now Jaggy presented these ranks, and Tip.It did it. Soon Tip.It will be "granted" Platinum-status.

[Toad]

Okay I was taking a month or so away from the game and fansites but I got told about this topic, RuneScapes first fansite, gold?! Runevillage Zybez and Tip.it have been here an eternity and actually helped to develop players more so then recent fansites taht have got platinum status, but I guess the usefulness of website the quality of content doesn't count for anything, more so of what fansites the Jmods go to wow.

 

Bleh...you should really bother to read these things.

 

Basically, it's an advert-thingy. Jaggy requested X from Tip.It, at first Tip.It didn't take it, now Jaggy presented these ranks, and Tip.It did it. Soon Tip.It will be "granted" Platinum-status.

 

Jagex are hardly saints some of the advertisements they've had in the past on their websites, I've seen numerous WoW ads on their main page before, I've also seen gold selling websites on there

[Romy]

Okay I was taking a month or so away from the game and fansites but I got told about this topic, RuneScapes first fansite, gold?! Runevillage Zybez and Tip.it have been here an eternity and actually helped to develop players more so then recent fansites taht have got platinum status, but I guess the usefulness of website the quality of content doesn't count for anything, more so of what fansites the Jmods go to wow.

 

Bleh...you should really bother to read these things.

 

Basically, it's an advert-thingy. Jaggy requested X from Tip.It, at first Tip.It didn't take it, now Jaggy presented these ranks, and Tip.It did it. Soon Tip.It will be "granted" Platinum-status.

 

Jagex are hardly saints some of the advertisements they've had in the past on their websites, I've seen numerous WoW ads on their main page before, I've also seen gold selling websites on there

 

Definitely, that's an issue many Tip.It members found absurd (myself included), but it's already been discussed times and times again by now.

[Beaumonde]

Jagex should really just kiss our [wagon] if we're doing what they want and they're saying we'll get platinum "soon" or "in a month" or so.

[pulli23]

they also have asked for guides not to be released for a few weeks after new content (my memory is hazy here but i'm sure i remember this happening across some sites, mep2 i think it was)

 

I wrote content for another site at the time of release of MEP2 and was personally asked by Mod Mark not to write a guide for it. However they can not in anyway, shape, or form stop people from writing guides. They can REQUEST it, and people (Tip.It for example) abided by it for respect for Jagex, not for legal reasons.

 

Ya they can't really use "brute force" to control fan sites, but they can use back-stab attacks to control them.

 

All they have to say is: "Monitor all your threads and anyone posting a picture/knowledge of any unfair game-play/bug should be reported to us. If you don't comply with this your fan-site will be starred-out and reportable if said in-game."

 

With a small quick step they have control of any fan-sites they want, and in the same way promote the ones over those that do not follow them.

 

I'm not saying Jagex is "bad" per-say, I'm just saying its a move that, if not watched closely, could potentially end up ruining the great community we have produced here.

 

Limiting ad's doesn't bother me, but the moment censorship begins here for in-game content, I feel that would be the end of any community freedom and individuality.

Actually, I'm not even sure if that's allowed..

 

Secondlife once tried to block saying an alternative game's name.. But was forced to unblock by the european government..

[Gradeskip]

Dissapointed. Tip.It really deserves platinum.

[Toad]

I know Jagexs advertised are controlled by another company (they do the funorb ads the top page one etc) but still Jagex is a big enough company to have its own advertising department other big MMOs do, anyway I'll leave it here

[qeltar]

Doesn't make sense - sort of like this whole situation, I understand there is some pretty ambiguous ways to draw up some evil sinister conspiracies - But we checked before agreeing to remove advertisements

 

No conspiracy exist and nothing else is required.

You know, Das, you can do whatever you like, but don't try to handwave this away as if it were not a legitimate issue, with silly comments about "evil sinister conspiracies". That's nonsense, and frankly, I find it insulting.

 

There's been no suggestion of a "conspiracy", just of Tip.it being incredibly eager to bend over backwards to accept any conditions that Jagex imposes in exchange for being able to have its name up in lights.

 

The fact that you even felt the need to ASK Jagex about threads or forums on this board illustrates the problem. Because it suggests that if they *did* have a problem with those things, you would have gotten rid of them. Otherwise, why bother even asking? What message do you think you send by implying that the right to discuss other games in these forums was even up for discussion?

 

As for the Times, if Jagex has no influence over it, why was I basically told when I was a member of the team that I would not be allowed to publish anything too negative about Jagex? Not that I tried (I don't believe), but the fact that it was raised at all showed that the Times' journalistic independence is suspect. And you really expect everyone to believe that, now that you guys have agreed to let Jagex dictate the terms of your ads in exchange for a bunch of nice perqs, you won't be even less willing to rock the boat?

 

Once you get used to those nice perqs, they've pretty much got you. Sure, you can change your mind later, but it won't be easy to give up that status, so don't pretend this is something simple you can turn on or off like a light switch.

 

There's also the issue of the *appearance* of impropriety, as opposed to impropriety itself. Even if Tip.it isn't being influenced by Jagex, it *looks* like you are, because you have already let Jagex tell you what ads you can run. The reason that organizations like Consumer Reports don't accept advertising from anyone is not because they feel they lack the ability to be objective, but because they don't want to *appear* like they are being influenced.

 

So, make fun of me and MHL and a couple of others, but if you don't think dozens of people aren't reading this and thinking the exact same thing but just don't want to post it, you're fooling yourself.

[Howlin0001]

-snip-

 

 

Jagex are hardly saints some of the advertisements they've had in the past on their websites, I've seen numerous WoW ads on their main page before, I've also seen gold selling websites on there

Did you report the sites you saw?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Qeltar, Tip.it didn't bend over backwards for Jagex, they simply bent over for Jagex.

[The Dark Lord]

It does seem kind of bogus that we aren't platinum considering that Zybez and Tip.it are the most convenient sites that I have used in order to access RuneScape guides.

 

Anyway, it seems like it is kind of pointless. Once Jagex releases sneak peaks to a platinum site, couldn't people from the lower sites lurk and report what they see? <_<

[Grimy_Bunyip]

couldn't people from the lower sites lurk and report what they see? <_<

i do that all the time <3

[misterxman]

I don't visit other fansites much but for the size, content, and community that Tipit has, I was surprised it didn't recieve "platinum" status. The one advantage to this is that it'll keep the community focused on really wanting to make this the best fansite of all. Perhaps if we did earn platinum right away, we may take our victory for granted and lose that drive that keeps us wanting to be the best. I'm sure the admins want the best for the community with this decision, we will see what comes up for us in the future in terms of content from Jagex.

 

In the end, I'm pretty sure most of the Tipit community members are confident in their own fansite to know they don't need a "title" or "rank" to prove how great this fansite is. Jagex can rank the fansites as they wish, but the players will decide which is the best purely by which fansite helps them the best way possible through content and community.

[jonni]

Anyway, it seems like it is kind of pointless. Once Jagex releases sneak peaks to a platinum site, couldn't people from the lower sites lurk and report what they see? <_<

 

the first time they released concept art, they gave a few approved sites an "exclusive" piece each. no point really as people rounded them up and posted them on discussion threads etc. Underlines the fact that this is being done for no real reward from jagex

[Me_Hate_Libs]

i also don't like the implication that we're over dramatizing this and running around clutching our chests and yelling, "This is it. I'm coming to see you Elizabeth. This is the big one. Here I come."

 

Kudos to anyone who gets the reference btw. ;)

[das]

 

The fact that you even felt the need to ASK Jagex about threads or forums on this board illustrates the problem. Because it suggests that if they *did* have a problem with those things, you would have gotten rid of them. Otherwise, why bother even asking? What message do you think you send by implying that the right to discuss other games in these forums was even up for discussion?

 

The fact is i'm a player who has disagreed with the way runescape has been ran for half a decade. I'm bitter over trade limits, i'm bitter over PVP - hell i'm probably still bitter over my stats being wiped in classic due to inactivity. I've never been a jagex fanboy, I'm a player moderator and I try to use that to make a difference but with all due respect as a player, i've got more issues with them than you do, which is probably quite a few. I check my bases even if they don't need to be checked.

 

 

As for the Times, if Jagex has no influence over it, why was I basically told when I was a member of the team that I would not be allowed to publish anything too negative about Jagex? Not that I tried (I don't believe), but the fact that it was raised at all showed that the Times' journalistic independence is suspect. And you really expect everyone to believe that, now that you guys have agreed to let Jagex dictate the terms of your ads in exchange for a bunch of nice perqs, you won't be even less willing to rock the boat?

 

Theres a difference in critical writing that challenges game ethics or challenges game rules than writing work that can be held up for slander and libel - and hey one of our times articles actually did get us in trouble for slander once. I'd have to see individual articles to comment on them Bruce Everiss has made everyone rather paranoid in that regard too.

 

Once you get used to those nice perqs, they've pretty much got you. Sure, you can change your mind later, but it won't be easy to give up that status, so don't pretend this is something simple you can turn on or off like a light switch.

We went YEARS and close to a DECADE without these perks, we can go another DECADE again. We are far from the week, mindless and for lack of better word Jagex cuckolds some on this thread have made us out to be.

 

 

There's also the issue of the *appearance* of impropriety, as opposed to impropriety itself. Even if Tip.it isn't being influenced by Jagex, it *looks* like you are, because you have already let Jagex tell you what ads you can run. The reason that organizations like Consumer Reports don't accept advertising from anyone is not because they feel they lack the ability to be objective, but because they don't want to *appear* like they are being influenced.

 

 

 

So, make fun of me and MHL and a couple of others, but if you don't think dozens of people aren't reading this and thinking the exact same thing but just don't want to post it, you're fooling yourself.

Making fun? I don't believe i've called you fools, stupid or another insult yet, I think it's a valid view and it's your view and I am aware nothing I can type will convince you to change your mind in all likelihood.

 

I do believe that it's misguided to say we bent over for jagex when you don't have the full information in front of you to make the choice as we did. I do believe from a buisness standpoint that I question the judgment of anyone commenting on this as experts in turn after asking about NDAS when NDAS are VERY typical for almost type of real buisness deal that i've ever seen. and thats probably going to come off as rather harsh

 

We're not obligated to jagex in ANY contractual form to remove advertisements. it's a good faith effort to make an proactive campaign to remove them. We plan on removing them as we are alerted to them and see them.

 

It's fairly cut and dry and I really feel at this point alot of people are just...

 

Because....

 

 

And it's on this thread, posted by administrators already

[RU_Insane]

How did Salmoneous even make it above silver much less gold?? Their guides are rarely even updated in their guides and their tools are outdated as well!! RuneHQ should be a tier lower and Tip.it should be in RHQ's place considering how RHQ had more link to phishing/scam/RWT sites for longer than Tip.it, and their community is no where as good as ours. I'm shocked and appaled >=[

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Well Das, as you said Tip had no reason to request a NDA and nothing to hide and Jagex does. Also it's not an issue of you guys threatening anything with them over breach of it, they are clearly going to hang that one over your head.

 

10 year with no perks? I think we should've gone another ten and remained *completely* independent of them.

 

And I don't get the pic? Are you calling me a multi colored sucking intrument because I'm only one color and I very rarely suck anything outisde of a popsicle.

[Emmentail]

Tip.it and Runescape have survived a good what, 8/9 years of rs fansites being up and running. I'm pretty sure that adverts came in at some point and probably advertised other games... I fail to see why all of a sudden it is deemed "bad" by the powers that be at Jagex HQ (*COUGH*MMG) that fansites shouldn't have other gaming adverts.

 

Are Jagex that worried that they've run the game into the ground that people will actually go and play things like Evony? Seriously?

[mega_vegeta6]

I like das.

[stonewall337]

Sorry Rach, but I'd have to agree with Jagex. Although Tip.it is often the fastest place to get their guides up on new content, sal's quest guides are simply unrivaled by any I've seen. That would include Tip.Its. Their website has incredible guides, while I would have to say Tip.Its are only above average. No offense to the authors, some of the guides on the forums are simply amazing.

 

And geek, Tip.it Guides are just about as rarely updated.

[das]

Well Das, as you said Tip had no reason to request a NDA and nothing to hide and Jagex does. Also it's not an issue of you guys threatening anything with them over breach of it, they are clearly going to hang that one over your head.

 

It's still VERY common for buisness discussions and deals. That way they can't tell Runehq what they talked about with us or us what they spoke about with Runehq, thats probably best for all parties involved.

 

 

10 year with no perks? I think we should've gone another ten and remained *completely* independent of them.

What did we lose? It sure wasn't' revenue, a symbolic gesture of control for perks? Seems like a trade off to me.

 

 

And I don't get the pic? Are you calling me a multi colored sucking intrument because I'm only one color and I very rarely suck anything outisde of a popsicle.

 

I figured someone who quoted sanford and son would get a picture representing the old tired slogan "grasping" for straws. ;)

 

Because I feel this topic has alot of people grasping for things that are just not .....there to grasp at and cling on to and shout foul on.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I like Das too, and knowing what he probably knows I might be inclined to share his opinion. Sadly because of a NDA I will not be privy to what he knows and will have to settle with my current opinion which is based on as much information as I can gather.

 

Yeah, it was on in the background. I didn't get it though. Symbolic? Maybe. But once something that is pure is spoiled, and by anything at all, it'll never be pure again. Having said that this should be a moot point since you were already unpure after you didn't have a guide for ME2 and now we're all just arguing.

 

Having said that, hyperbole aside, I further reiterate that the thing that bothers me most in all this is the treatment of Zybez.

[qeltar]

 

The fact that you even felt the need to ASK Jagex about threads or forums on this board illustrates the problem. Because it suggests that if they *did* have a problem with those things, you would have gotten rid of them. Otherwise, why bother even asking? What message do you think you send by implying that the right to discuss other games in these forums was even up for discussion?

 

The fact is i'm a player who has disagreed with the way runescape has been ran for half a decade. I'm bitter over trade limits, i'm bitter over PVP - hell i'm probably still bitter over my stats being wiped in classic due to inactivity. I've never been a jagex fanboy, I'm a player moderator and I try to use that to make a difference but with all due respect as a player, i've got more issues with them than you do, which is probably quite a few. I check my bases even if they don't need to be checked.

I never called you a fanboy. I implied that you (collectively) had compromised your integrity in your desire to get high status in Jagex's fan site pantheon.

 

So... nice speech, but you didn't answer my question. Why ask Jagex to look at forums and threads if you weren't willing to be influenced by what Jagex said? Why claim you aren't being influenced by Jagex when it comes to content when you are running content by them for approval?

 

 

Theres a difference in critical writing that challenges game ethics or challenges game rules than writing work that can be held up for slander and libel - and hey one of our times articles actually did get us in trouble for slander once.

I think you mean "Jagex didn't like what we wrote and rattled our cage, so we caved, removed it and apologized". It's been a while but I don't seem to recall anything slanderous in that article -- Jagex just didn't like it, scared you, and the Times never been the same since.

 

I'd have to see individual articles to comment on them Bruce Everiss has made everyone rather paranoid in that regard too.

Bruce Everiss took a principled stand, and stood up for his rights. You did not. So, rather odd that you'd bring him up here.

 

We went YEARS and close to a DECADE without these perks, we can go another DECADE again.

The states went years and decades without Federal highway money. But now they're hooked on it, so the Federal government can dictate terms to them. You'll see.

 

Making fun? I don't believe i've called you fools, stupid or another insult yet

The conspiracy theory crap -- which you repeated right in this post -- is enough, to be honest.

 

I do believe that it's misguided to say we bent over for jagex when you don't have the full information in front of you to make the choice as we did. I do believe from a buisness standpoint that I question the judgment of anyone commenting on this as experts in turn after asking about NDAS when NDAS are VERY typical for almost type of real buisness deal that i've ever seen. and thats probably going to come off as rather harsh

My assessment of your collective intestinal fortitude or lack thereof is based on what you have already written. I don't need to see any confidential documents.

 

It's fairly cut and dry

Yes it is: you sold out.