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Tip.it Times 11 April 2010


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32 replies to this topic

#21
waheera1
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waheera1

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The final paragraph however illuminated a serious flaw in the article. When you refer to high levelled players and their ability to grind, positioning on hiscores etc you yourself have circumvented the concept of "fun". If you are only playing for recognition then perhaps you should give up the game and join a sports team instead. Your suggestion is that the higher level players are presenting an insurmountable challenge to new players, but I would query HOW? Zezima was maxed when I joined the game, but I didn't give a rat's arse about that because I was just enjoying the game. Similarly it did not stop hundreds, if not thousands of other players from joining and persisting with the game. If people regard others without 99s as noobs then they ought to go away and take a long, hard look at themselves - skill levels amount to nothing in real life, the people behind each character are much more interesting than that and it is possible to create a great environment just by getting along.


What I got from it is that she's afraid it will snowball. Players today will spend more and more time grinding, while others are grinding even harder just to stay ahead, which forces new players to grind that much harder, and so forth. I don't think she meant it is dissuading people from even joining in the first place, at least that's how I was reading it.

I don't know if today's top players are grinding more, per say. Skills are so much easier to train then they were even when I started playing. Overall though, you'd have to admit that more people seem to be grinding, or power-leveling, their skills. I think there are other factors for this though: faster money-making methods, easier/afkable training methods, faster training methods, Distractions and Diversions, etc. Today, neither gp nor xp carries the same weight that it once did. As a result, more and more people are "grinding" because they see it more manageable.


Ah well you may be right with that, my opinions have been tainted a bit recently by the amount of whining that is being done and I perhaps unfairly dismissed this as more of the same. That said, there is no reason that any individual must grind anything - the concept that we must always strive to be better than someone else on this game is a little flawed to my thinking.

I suspect that the reality, as you yourself said, is closer to the fact that most players now are at the stage where grinding is merely acceptance of the inescapable truth that levels take a very long time to obtain. Thus instead of necessarily picking the most entertaining route to xp, many now take the faster grind and look forward to the extended possibilities those levels will bring. That said, my personal slayer grind that I've been on for the last few months has been altogether a pleasant experience thanks to my clan and other friends, so it is still easily possible to have fun while grinding.

Also a little note, the forum link on the front page takes you to last week's article, might be worth a fix!

#22
P_E_N_N_Y
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P_E_N_N_Y

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Really liked the first article, although i disagree with it a bit and about the point of the firecape requirement. Partly because even without getting the cape you still need a gargantuan amount of slayer points AND you'll be doing a considerable amount of damage less every hit.

I think the need for high level requirements is pretty much proven fact now, but you need to the right KIND of requirements, namely skill requirements. Having to have completed a minigame like that might be great for some, but frustrating to others, and with the fight pits being arguably the most difficult minigame/boss they could have picked Jagex really didn't edge into this kind of shift gently. The requirement for something high level needs to be a high level in that skill, which is what its there for, OR something that directly relates to the skill, one of the great things about runescape/MMO's in my opinion is that you can simply go for your favoured aspect of a skill/activity or do multiple things that compliment each other - the moment i'm forced to play a minigame i hate or level/quest somewhere i truly don't enjoy to carry on with my favourite skill is the moment my interest in the game will start to wane.

EDIT: Oh, and perfect representation is near impossible, in real life not just runescape, gathering opinion through word of mouth is a step backward from just having a poll open to everyone on the front page.

#23
Lacoste
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Lacoste

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The second article is just like the post muggi made in general, and it has the same "solutions" even in real life you need to be able to do things you don't like to ultimately complete something, I know its a bit much to relate the game to real life but that's the way I see it, and you never see anyone with semi high levels complain about not having fun, only the ones with sub par levels... no offence to anyone :)

#24
neonihilist
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Oh, and perfect representation is near impossible, in real life not just runescape, gathering opinion through word of mouth is a step backward from just having a poll open to everyone on the front page.


Yeah representation is impossible, that's one reason I prefer self management and direct and participatory democracy.
Posted Image[URL=http://www.wizards.com/magic/playmagic/whatcolorareyou.asp][r]

#25
PereGrin
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I enjoyed the first article :)

About the second tho. You got your example backwards. Doing slayer assignments is fun, you get to break up combat training across many different monsters, with the chance at huge drops (visage, DFH etc.).

Playing soul wars with 1500 other people, all of them running around aimlessly screaming "FALLZ FOR 0BBY RU$H!!!!" and watching the avatars health steadily deplete from suiciders running in with repemption on is not fun. Doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again to amass your 8,300+ zeal, now thats grinding.

But fighting a variety of monsters across all types of combat, with several others who happen to be doing the same thing as you for the same reason, that is fun. And you get to take breaks to go harvest and replant your herbs, thus reaping huge profits, or supercheap herblore xp. 200k herblore xp cost me 450k worth of seeds, not 8mil worth of avantoe :)

#26
applyapple
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applyapple

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About Fun Comes Second

I am not a grinder. It bores me to death (except thieving and agility, those are fun). The result is that my skill levels are not what they could be, even if I think they're relatively high. I've been playing on this account for 1.5-2 years, and my highest skill level is a 66 (cooking). My solution has been to try and merge tasks. I like getting rare items, and that is often the goal I have, but never to get enough money to go onto the GE and buy them. It may be grinding, but i have found an entertaining way to make cash- the agility arena. In conclusion, it's still possible to have fun on runescape, even if it's not very convienient (it reaches the goal).
Ummmmmm.....................
Not much to say.

If you want to find me in Runescape, my name is not applyapple. It is vetoscadiva.

Complain as you like about Jagex, but think about what they've done. How many MMORPG designers go around to creating as complex an in-game world as Jagex? They do need to get around to making a equipable knife, though.

With everyone's complaining about updates, it's amzing that there isn't a forum topic on the fact that the chat box says "You can't reach that" (as opposed to "I can't reach that!").

#27
nas275
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nas275

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The first article was interesting; I don't particularly like the idea of a bronze crown though. I think the forums work quite well already.

The second article is the reason I'm replying: I agree completely. It's a game, we play it for FUN, 'nuff said. I hate grinding when it's not enjoyable (who actually enjoys clicking the same three rocks 50000 times, or doing the exact same clicking patterns tens of thousands of times for Fletching and Firemaking?)

That's why I'm over the moon about Dungeoneering: finally, a skill that is all about fun, and can't be 'grinded'. I think this is a major change in attitudes on Jagex's part - the fact that they've decided to make a fun piece of content which would normally be a minigame into a skill shows they're focusing more on fun ways to train instead of grinding.

I hope they release more 'fun' ways to train all skills. D&D's are a start. I don't mind a bit of grinding, but the amount in Runescape makes many skills seem not worthwhile. I don't mind if the new 'fun content' is 10 or 20% slower - that leaves grinding open as an option, but means there is a fun alternative.

To support what the article says - I just completed this week's poll. Seen the results?

Q: 'When deciding to train your skills, what factor is generally most important to you? '
How much money you will make/lose - 31% (7983 votes)
XP gain rate - 28% (7293 votes)
How fun you find it - 28% (7187 votes)

Fun doesn't come second, it seems. Fun comes third!

#28
A0z9
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IMO, players who rant on this skill are players who don't play for fun, have trouble ignoring it or maybe even afk, but you can ignore the last bit.
La Vallett1

A.k.a. "Nostalgic Vallett"

What's been said must be done.

#29
X3EN
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X3EN

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About the first article - the only people that think they have the right to shout are those who don't like something. If you like a thing, you will not spawn tens of threads to say the same thing over and over, you would just PLAY it (of course, some care to tell the developers that they like it). And unfortunately, someone has to deal with the troublemakers and that's why their demands are partially or fully fulfilled. It's not like you or me or someone else can change it or do it better: it was always like this and the faster you get rid of troublemakers, the better.

About the second article - I couldn't agree more and that's exactly why I am retired. Since now I know how much my time is worth, I'd rather get paid for doing something interesting than waste both time and money to grind. Now I login occasionally, perhaps to do the circus (since ToG's requirements (I can earn 150k xp only in three weeks) are absurdly high), perhaps to play a minigame an activity. I just do what I find fun and that is exactly 'fun'. Unfortunately at my skill level distribution there's only grind left.

And about runecrafting - we already had a skill which involves continuous running in circles to gain xp, so it could have been designed better. Currently, there's no reason to train it besides the quest requirements. Also, if someone is willing to argue that it is a good moneymaker, the answer is simple and undeniable by any means: if you would put all the time you would spend on rc to combat, you would gain tens of millions with combat instead of hundreds of thousands with rc.

savormix.gif
R.I.P. oO000oO0oO00, RS2 range pure transformed to a maxed PvM char in EoC, ten years of time completely wasted.
Good to be gone :)


#30
PereGrin
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About the first article - the only people that think they have the right to shout are those who don't like something. If you like a thing, you will not spawn tens of threads to say the same thing over and over, you would just PLAY it (of course, some care to tell the developers that they like it). And unfortunately, someone has to deal with the troublemakers and that's why their demands are partially or fully fulfilled. It's not like you or me or someone else can change it or do it better: it was always like this and the faster you get rid of troublemakers, the better.

About the second article - I couldn't agree more and that's exactly why I am retired. Since now I know how much my time is worth, I'd rather get paid for doing something interesting than waste both time and money to grind. Now I login occasionally, perhaps to do the circus (since ToG's requirements (I can earn 150k xp only in three weeks) are absurdly high), perhaps to play a minigame an activity. I just do what I find fun and that is exactly 'fun'. Unfortunately at my skill level distribution there's only grind left.

And about runecrafting - we already had a skill which involves continuous running in circles to gain xp, so it could have been designed better. Currently, there's no reason to train it besides the quest requirements. Also, if someone is willing to argue that it is a good moneymaker, the answer is simple and undeniable by any means: if you would put all the time you would spend on rc to combat, you would gain tens of millions with combat instead of hundreds of thousands with rc.


You get over 400m cash getting 99 rc. It takes about 570 grhaaks, and about 20 days of play time. That would be 2mil an hour or so.

#31
Kyle
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The notion of a Bronze Crown player is noxious to me. Special forums, special access to Jagex, special display crown in the game, special influence on future updates.

And if I want to get Jagex' ear, I would have to find someone with a Bronze Crown and get them to forward my ideas. Perhaps by their merit, perhaps with a favorable loan of an item, perhaps in exchange for my support at some clan warring event.

No Thank You.


As opposed to what you can do now. Which is absolutely nothing.

#32
dream49
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dream49

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All i have to say about the grinding through levels is its survival of the fittest. If you're good you stay and if not you don't. Simply as that. Even though runescape is like that for most it doesn't have to be. Ignore the ppl who say you're not good and play on. Either way its just a game.
Aguante Argentina!!!!!!!!!!

#33
Will H
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Will H

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By the way, in the 'did you know', it's Baba Yaga, not Baba Yaba. And that's one that I didn't know, thanks for the tip.

~ W ~


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