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12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

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I think for number 15 Qeltar meant that if you complete only parts of the dungeon, even if you have killed the boss, and logs out, you only receive a tiny amount of exp. I think maybe it will be better for players to receive exp based on rooms they have unlocked and a bonus exp for killing a boss. Sort of like agility perhaps, a small amount of exp per room and the rest of the exp for finishing the boss room, the exp has to be balanced to prevent players from boss rushing but I think it can be done.


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So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

 

Your comeback for Point 2 is still about the mismatch in token cost (and hence XP) and the dungeoneer level for the items. I'm personally not worried about flaws that can be fixed by just changing a little here and there, compared to complicated flaws in the game mechanics, like the complexity system, XP calculation involving bonus rooms and such.

 

Point 10, I meant something similar to yours. Remove it.

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

 

 

7.I find it confusing, but necessary. What's a better way to encourage players to replay every level instead of only the last level?

Why is it ncessary to do this at all? Am I forced to hunt polar kebbits when I get to level 90, or kill chickens half the time to level combat?

 

 

Now now, here's the thing. What you consider as being forced is different from mine.

 

You:

You do floor 1 to 20, and since you can't do 21, you decide to repeat floor 20 multiple times until you unlock floor 21. Whoever wants to do lower floors (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. That's not much of a choice, actually.

 

Me:

I do floor 1 to 20, and since I can't do 21, and there's a system to re-do all the lower levels while obtaining XP through prestige, why not? Whoever wants to repeat specific level (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. The only reason to do the same level x times is for the XP, now there's no reason to do this.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?


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I barely thought one could call it a skill at all, with the fact that dungeoneering is absolutely useless outside its own little area, which is totally unlike how any other skill works.

Absolutely true..

 

But now.... I think it is the best skill in the game.

It may be the best minigame in RS. It's not a skill.

 

You seem to miss an important fact. The definition for a runescape skill is - what Jagex says =/ You may not like it but their opinion on what is a skills > your opinion.

 

Don't question qeltar. He is the provider- nay, the soul source of information that Jagex must rely on to make content, but doesn't. Although they don't listen to him and his infinite wisdom, they have miraculously given him an unabridged dictionary of terms, definitions, and implied contracts between Jagex and the players. And now, this awe inspiring man is here to spread the knowledge to the unknowing and brainless zombie drones who are currently feeding off of Jagex fanboyism.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Basically, it doesn't fit some people's definition of what a skill is- so some people are going to argue with us relentlessly (read: futilely).


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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?


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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.


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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.


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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?


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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

 

No, like i said, it was because enemies and bosses on F2P are much lower leveled than on P2P.

 

/edit: and hence: easier killed --> easier completed --> faster xp


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They still got alot of stuff to fix before it is class as a real skill.

 

The rewards

Amount of tokens obtain

P2p stuff mix with F2p stuff - i mean... Lvl 103 mining in f2p and can't use herby... that's just madness

Change some of the context in this skill because it feels more like a minigame then a skill

 

Hopefully they will fix it in 2 weeks time - really want the bone crasher rewards lol


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It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

 

No, like i said, it was because enemies and bosses on F2P are much lower leveled than on P2P.

 

/edit: and hence: easier killed --> easier completed --> faster xp

 

Too bad I don't have membership to test it out, but I do leave tons of food on the ground because most of the monsters (except the boss) are pretty weak. But even with the raise in cap, I think a basic proportional reduction in XP rate for all F2P should be in place. There's no reason why F2P should have the same XP rate as a member, and every other skill has ways to improve members' training. Since Dungeoneering calculates XP, it makes sense to me that F2P gets say, 65% of what a member gets for the same level and prestige (maybe by blocking complexity 4-6). It's just being fair to members who pay, as well as among the F2Pers.


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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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They still got alot of stuff to fix before it is class as a real skill.

 

The rewards

Amount of tokens obtain

P2p stuff mix with F2p stuff - i mean... Lvl 103 mining in f2p and can't use herby... that's just madness

Change some of the context in this skill because it feels more like a minigame then a skill

 

Hopefully they will fix it in 2 weeks time - really want the bone crasher rewards lol

there would have been an easy way of making this into a skill instead of a minigame like it is now:

 

Make people able to keep (boss)drops from dungeoneering. That way you get a reward from your skilling exactly like you do from all other skills, but instead they choose to use a minigame-like method with tokens and buy-ables. Although this does factor out luck based rewards (which drops are of course).


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So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

Well sure, there are some things they can't fix, but there are others they can. I do think they could fix the behemoth problem pretty easily, for example.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.


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I really hope they buff up the Chaotic Staff and change the new Augury prayer.

 

The Chaotic Staff is so useless right now. It takes 4 million xp to buy one and it only has 1 more point in magic attack than the SoL does, it has no special, no rune saving ability and has the same magic damage boost as the SoL. Buff the damage boost up to 20% and increase it's magic attack to +25 or something to make it worth spending all the tokens on...

 

Then there's the Augury prayer which is a big disappointment. It actually is more of a help to meleers who are running from Mages because of the insane 25% magical defence bonus. It only gives 5% more accuracy than Mystic Might which is unnoticeable. Give the Augury prayer a 5% damage boost, and reduce it's magic defence to 15% or something.

 

Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

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It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

You play against other players in SC. Having a high dung level also lets you get unique rewards that add a variety of gameplay features. SC gives you bonus exp.

 

 

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.

 

Worse is subjective. You are acting like these things are design flaws. In reality, its just your personal dislike.

 

Also, "grinding" usually means "doing the same thing over and over". How can you call the process of doing 35 different floors "more grinding" than doing the same floor 20+ times?

 

Also the intrinsic motivator is that you should have fun doing the dungeons, and seeing a range of bosses. Would Slayer be more fun if you just got assigned the same task 500000 times? No. People like slayer because you get random assignments and it adds some sense of variety. Is it REALLY variety? No. Your task comes from the same list of like 20 monsters, and you probably are going to use almost identical equipment on every task. Arguing that you should just be able to do floor 35 over and over is like arguing that you should be able to choose the same slayer task over and over.

 

The POINT of slayer is to kill assigned monsters. The POINT of dungeoneering is to test your ingenuity and to make sure you see an unpredictable range of environments.


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Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

Every update makes it more and more clear that the developers don't have any clue about how players actually play the game.

 

Another inexcusable design flaw is putting in doors that cannot be opened even using the maximum herblore boost, then hiding half the floor behind said doors, and penalizing players 50% of their XP for something they can do nothing about. Idiotic.


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Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

Every update makes it more and more clear that the developers don't have any clue about how players actually play the game.

 

Another inexcusable design flaw is putting in doors that cannot be opened even using the maximum herblore boost, then hiding half the floor behind said doors, and penalizing players 50% of their XP for something they can do nothing about. Idiotic.

 

 

It isn't idiotic at all. The idea behind having doors that connot be opened by one player, is to encourage you to go in a team with diverse skills. It is meant as a party skill. You get rewarded for having a party with skills spread out and not having one person do all the work.


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So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

Well sure, there are some things they can't fix, but there are others they can. I do think they could fix the behemoth problem pretty easily, for example.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.

 

You repeat the highest (or close to) activity for every other skill. Is that an intrinsic reason (because you get the best XP), or an extrinsic reason (you get lower XP for doing anything below what you can)?

 

It's hard to implement an intrinsic factor to redo the upper floors, unless there are rewards involved. The prestige system rewards XP, and I consider that an intrinsic motivator already, although removing the tokens system and somehow spread the rewards within the floors of the dungeon would be better. Without the system this extrinsic motivator would have been there anyway, aka you get penalised for not doing the best level.

 

If the system is redesigned such that the XP from doing a fix number of floor regardless of the floor level is the same, that would be great. You can grind 10 rounds of floor 20, or do 3 rounds of floor 1, 7 rounds of floor 19, based on your preference. But if you're talking about removing the prestige system so that 10 rounds of floor 20 always rewards more XP than 10 rounds of floor 19, and so on, no thanks. I rather have this forced system to go through all the variety. The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.


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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

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The thing i really don't get it that people can't seem to think that there is like a 99% chance that we get some new dungeons to explore icon_wall.gifit's not like they only release one dungeon in all of the skills life, try and wait 6 month and i think we have alot more dungeons to lvl in.


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Qeltar,

 

There's all sorts of problems with how Jagex approaches any number of skills.

 

-Why is Constitution or Hitpoints leveled by doing damage to a monster, shouldn't it be leveled by healing yourself with food?

-Why is Defense leveled with doing damage to a monster, should it be leveled by avoiding hits from a monster?

-What does the end of an agility course have to do with so much experience?

-What does the metal of a weapon have to do with whether I can hold it in my hand?

-Why can I hunt a chinchompa in a controlled area, but not a bear or a wolf or a unicorn?

 

Let's not forget that Jagex adapted skills over time to at least make them sort of useful. Agility and Firemaking were almost entirely useless. Prayer had no real purpose past the big three for a long time, and those were horribly overpowered for their benefit (100%/50% reduction of damage). Let's not forget level 40 armor was the norm (except for level 70 ranged black) until barrows.

 

As far as Dungeoneering being a mini-game: Jagex tells you in the development diaries it started out as a mini-game not even in the Runescape game. Yes it's a mini-game that's adapted to use the skill system, why is that even a complaint. Slayer is a mini-game that does the same thing.

 

So yeah, Jagex messed up a new skill. Big deal, it's always messed up skills even when it tweaked them. So Dungeoneering is a mini-game. Big deal, so is Slayer, Hunter and Agility in how they're trained. So Dungeoneering is closed off. Big deal, so is Farming and Construction.

 

Why not head over to the Dungeoneering feedback and post lucid suggestions about improving the minigame/skill. I posted a few (allow binding of any number of items, but the item's tier level is an XP penalty; Spend tokens on gaining XP in all skill; reduce cost to make arrows; better random team organizer) which may or may not get accepted. Hell, my idea for God Wars dungeon apparently went over real well in the last two years, so Jagex has no problem adapting player feedback. Just don't be mad when they don't accept it either.


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The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.

 

Yeah. Saying "I should be allowed to just complete the last floor" is like saying "There should be less obstacles on this agility course"

 

The prestige system is part of the intended exp rate. Saying the system would give you faster exp if it worked different is just...well..its just really stupid. It makes no sense to say that. The same could be said for any skill. Summoning would give me faster exp if the pouches and second ingredients were stackable.


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I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.


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I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.

 

 

People have complained ever since the G.E that Jagex have been taking the multiplayer part out of this game. They finally make something that rewards playing with others and people bash it. As usual, people are never happy.


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I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.

 

 

People have complained ever since the G.E that Jagex have been taking the multiplayer part out of this game. They finally make something that rewards playing with others and people bash it. As usual, people are never happy.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of people just really dont even like this game. Theyre just addicted to playing for way too long and bragging that they have more gold/higher stats than the person beside them.


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There's all sorts of problems with how Jagex approaches any number of skills.

 

-Why is Constitution or Hitpoints leveled by doing damage to a monster, shouldn't it be leveled by healing yourself with food?

-Why is Defense leveled with doing damage to a monster, should it be leveled by avoiding hits from a monster?

-What does the end of an agility course have to do with so much experience?

-What does the metal of a weapon have to do with whether I can hold it in my hand?

-Why can I hunt a chinchompa in a controlled area, but not a bear or a wolf or a unicorn?

 

....

 

 

It's just a game, some things cannot be THAT realistic. And some things are in place for a reason. If you don't have the bulk of XP at the end of the agility course but spread it out evenly, people are just going to repeat that one single obstacle over and over. Sure it's still repeating an action, but since they designed a COURSE they would want players to complete the whole thing.


Zepheras.png

 

"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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