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12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!


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Can someone just explain one thing to me:

 

A lot of this debate about the skill being good brings in "BUT its a minigame!" (or, a skill-minigame hybrid)

 

Whether or not it IS a minigame, why would it be a BAD thing? I mean, Slayer is virtually a mini game. Hell, its virtually the same thing as building that statue (you are rewarded for doing things that were already in the game). But why would dungeoneering be evil if it WAS a mini game?

 

It's a matter of packaging. If you fail to package the content in a way that lets people clearly see it as a minigame or a unique skill, it's confuses the players. a minigame/D&D that feels like a skill isn't that bad, looking at Fish Flinger. A SKILL, something that has a major role in this game, packaged wrongly is disastrous. Look at how vocal today's runescapers are compared to the past.

 

Take agility and slayer for example, if today agility is is added to the game the same way as it was in the past where you train within the course, and even 'unlock' the agility armour, but has no application outside, you will be seeing the same rants as with dungeoneering until something is done. If slayer is added as it was in the past, but you don't get direct loot or XP, but instead a calculation screen showing you the number of beasts you killed as the based XP, modified by time taken, damage you received and then converting the XP to tokens, after which you trade for untradeable abyssal whips and rune boots, you'll see the same thing as well.

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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

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There have been a lot of concerns raised around dungeoneering not being implemented within the game outside of daemonheim. And while I can understand that, currently dungeoneering is very self-contained, history has shown that many skills that were previously self-contained in similar manners (agility was not useful outside of being needed for a few quests and failing less on courses themselves until shortcuts were implemented and, more recently, run energy was changed) have been changed to become more integrated in the game and game play. Dungeoneering was released just over a week ago, it's early days yet; given Jagex's history and the main thrust of revamping old skills, I think it's not overly optimistic to assume that they will be integrating dungeoneering more thoroughly into the wider game.

 

I can understand frustration that Jagex didn't do so right out of the gate; honestly, it probably would have quelled quite of confusion and disgruntlement, but Jagex has always been a bit clumsy with introducing things and their handling of the community.

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I think that two things happened with Dung.

 

1) There had to be employees at Jagex who had serious concerns about making this a skill. But, as companies get larger, and paychecks get fatter, employees tend to keep their concerns to themselves if they clash with the powers that be. Institutions have difficulty coping with people who say no, this is not good. You must be a team player or endanger your career with the company. So, an Institutional Imperative takes over, where bigness can actually bring less insight and creativity. So, Dung happens.

 

2) Jagex had a lot of Sunk Costs in this mini-game. There is a tendency to resist abandoning a project after a large amount of time, money and resources have been spent on it. If you play Dung just a little, you can see that a huge amount of effort went into its creation. So, you look at your Sunk Costs and start thinking of the best way to get your investment back. Just a mini-game? That would be something that would few would play, and all that work would not be much appreciated. So, make it a skill. People train skills. They want their position on high-scores. They want to be able to do activities such as quests that require certain skill levels. Making it a skill forces play and allows Jagex to do other things with it. And if free-to-play players like Dung a lot (which some of them surely will) it is just one more reason to buy membership.

 

Making Dung a skill is probably more about making money than making good game-play. I predict that the future attempts to integrate Dung into the larger game will come off feeling as forced as the skill classification felt in the first place. I still look forward for the future mini-game that gives experience for this skill. Someone commented earlier that mini-games give slower experience than the skill itself. I feel confident that with Dung, slower experience is simply not possible.

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Can someone just explain one thing to me:

 

A lot of this debate about the skill being good brings in "BUT its a minigame!" (or, a skill-minigame hybrid)

 

Whether or not it IS a minigame, why would it be a BAD thing? I mean, Slayer is virtually a mini game. Hell, its virtually the same thing as building that statue (you are rewarded for doing things that were already in the game). But why would dungeoneering be evil if it WAS a mini game?

 

It's a matter of packaging. If you fail to package the content in a way that lets people clearly see it as a minigame or a unique skill, it's confuses the players. a minigame/D&D that feels like a skill isn't that bad, looking at Fish Flinger. A SKILL, something that has a major role in this game, packaged wrongly is disastrous. Look at how vocal today's runescapers are compared to the past.

 

Take agility and slayer for example, if today agility is is added to the game the same way as it was in the past where you train within the course, and even 'unlock' the agility armour, but has no application outside, you will be seeing the same rants as with dungeoneering until something is done. If slayer is added as it was in the past, but you don't get direct loot or XP, but instead a calculation screen showing you the number of beasts you killed as the based XP, modified by time taken, damage you received and then converting the XP to tokens, after which you trade for untradeable abyssal whips and rune boots, you'll see the same thing as well.

 

I actually liked the slayer idea. :thumbup:

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So what if it feels like a minigame? There's nothing wrong with that.

 

So far I have seen no major 'confusion' regarding this skill except how prestige works, and that has nothing to do with the minigame issue anyway. Dungeoneering is pretty self explanitory. When I started the skill, I didn't even look at the Knowledge base. It only took me a few minutes to figure out the basics of the skill- form a party, join a dungeon, raid the dungeon, kill the boss. The rest is just a matter of learning strategies for defeating certain bosses and memorizing the metal, cloth, and hide types, and so on. So what if the skill is packaged like a minigame? So long as the gameplay is easy to learn, I see no problem.

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It's a matter of packaging. If you fail to package the content in a way that lets people clearly see it as a minigame or a unique skill, it's confuses the players. a minigame/D&D that feels like a skill isn't that bad, looking at Fish Flinger. A SKILL, something that has a major role in this game, packaged wrongly is disastrous. Look at how vocal today's runescapers are compared to the past.

 

Take agility and slayer for example, if today agility is is added to the game the same way as it was in the past where you train within the course, and even 'unlock' the agility armour, but has no application outside, you will be seeing the same rants as with dungeoneering until something is done. If slayer is added as it was in the past, but you don't get direct loot or XP, but instead a calculation screen showing you the number of beasts you killed as the based XP, modified by time taken, damage you received and then converting the XP to tokens, after which you trade for untradeable abyssal whips and rune boots, you'll see the same thing as well.

 

So you solved my confusion. If people have problems with this skill then they have problems with many skills/minigames/diversions/quests, because those objects do not have a clear definition anywhere, and there are many successful updates that have been labeled "incorrectly" but have been very good for this game (Slayer)

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I'm pretty frustrated with dungeoneering. I had just got every level over 70. I had just gotten every song unlocked. My goals were to get my quest cape back and tackle Jad. I've really enjoyed runescape and have done just about everything. But the fact is, at least for me, I'm not interested in dungeoneering. I've only dungeoneered a few hours, but I really don't like it. Before when a new skill or new quest came out or a new part of the map opened up, I was excited to go try it. But I'm not excited about dungeoneering. It seems like a chore. I'm not trying to complain and I realize Jagex worked hard on it, but it just doesn't interest me the way other updates and additions have. So I've hardly played runescape at all since it came out.

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I'm pretty frustrated with dungeoneering. I had just got every level over 70. I had just gotten every song unlocked. My goals were to get my quest cape back and tackle Jad. I've really enjoyed runescape and have done just about everything. But the fact is, at least for me, I'm not interested in dungeoneering. I've only dungeoneered a few hours, but I really don't like it. Before when a new skill or new quest came out or a new part of the map opened up, I was excited to go try it. But I'm not excited about dungeoneering. It seems like a chore. I'm not trying to complain and I realize Jagex worked hard on it, but it just doesn't interest me the way other updates and additions have. So I've hardly played runescape at all since it came out.

you can still play to get your quest cape back and tackle jad noone says u need to dungioneer.

 

Personally i only like training this skill with friends if they not on then i slay/craft/con.

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It has been their attitude for a long time not to tell us about future updates? Sorry but it is nothing new.

 

Well they better change this attitude when it comes to catastrophies like this skill. A lot of us are worried about if this skill is eventually going to have a use for training it, not just 1 reward for 80 levels of hard work.

 

Take a look at the Blizzard corporation and how much more successful their game is. Even though WoW costs essentially 3x more to play, they have around 3x as many people who pay to play it. It's because when it comes to major game updates they let you know WAY in advance when something will happen to the gameplay mechanics so that you have time to prepare and/or share your opinion on it. Then, once the content is finished, they put it into beta testing with select players on test realms which means that upon official release the content will virutally be bugless, excluding perhaps one or two bugs that aren't game breaking like the ones Jagex releases.

 

If they want to be considered a serious major corporation, they better start acting like one. Hiding major game decisions from your players without allowing them initial feedback just solely for the fact of "we want it to be a surprise," is not a good enough justification. I want to know if my game is going in a direction I'm at least content with before I keep subscribing. I don't like being left in the dark about something I pay for simply because they think it'll be fun like a surprise birthday party.

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The reason why it's important that it's a skill or a minigame is because we have the two. What's the point of having any distinction if they just want to blur the lines? why go through the hassle of changing the name of minigame to activity, when you 2 months later come out with a skill/activity/minigame/whatever.

 

The reason why it's not a skill is intergration. The skill exists solely unto itself in a little world and has no, and I mean, integration into the Runescape whole. That's what skills are, they're things you can do in the world of Runescape, not just on one stupid island/peninsula.

 

And many people will point out Construction. Yeah, it does exist a little within itself, but not to the degree of Dung. It is more of a cosmetic skill.

 

This is a minigame. It started out a game in itself, but they couldn't pull it off. Then it got turned into a skill because of all the time invested in it, it could not simply be a minigame because then it wouldn't get nearly as much traffic as it were a skill. Same goes for why it was made f2p. They had to rebrand it and make it available to everyone because otherwise its use would have been no where close to its development time and it would turned into a unmitigated disaster like Mobilising Armies.

 

I've said it a couple of times, but it's still true. The idea of dung as a skill is Jagex basically trying to hammer a square object in a circular hole.

 

Because it's their game, they have recently begun making all these decrees on things, redefining the game, etc. Then they completely stonewall on the issues. They rarely discuss it in any detailed way.

 

They do it in the name of growth, but a tree can only grow so tall before it falls beneath it's weight.

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Oh, I'm sure as an activity it would get plenty of traffic given that it gives as a reward what are currently the most powerful weapons in the game (even though they do degrade... <_< ...like so much of the other gear released as of late).

 

I don't think it would have quite fit in as an activity though. The way it works demands that you should have to work your way up in ranks before you are prepared to delve deeper into the dungeon, and making it a "skill" certainly accomplishes that. It also opens up the possibility of future dungeons that tie in with the dungeoneering skill.

 

I certainly agree that it isn't a skill in the traditional sense, though. I think perhaps, if they insist on redefining the very meaning of skill, they should separate skills into distinct categories for more clarity. For example, "stats" for combat skills, "skills" or "professions" for the more traditional skills, and maybe "proficiencies" for skills like slayer and dungeoneering. And please no one scream at me that doing that would make the game more like WoW... just don't...

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Oh, I'm sure as an activity it would get plenty of traffic given that it gives as a reward what are currently the most powerful weapons in the game (even though they do degrade... <_< ...like so much of the other gear released as of late).

 

I don't think it would have quite fit in as an activity though. The way it works demands that you should have to work your way up in ranks before you are prepared to delve deeper into the dungeon, and making it a "skill" certainly accomplishes that. It also opens up the possibility of future dungeons that tie in with the dungeoneering skill.

 

I certainly agree that it isn't a skill in the traditional sense, though. I think perhaps, if they insist on redefining the very meaning of skill, they should separate skills into distinct categories for more clarity. For example, "stats" for combat skills, "skills" or "professions" for the more traditional skills, and maybe "proficiencies" for skills like slayer and dungeoneering. And please no one scream at me that doing that would make the game more like WoW... just don't...

 

I won't scream at you. I'll just say that WoW does something similar, but does it much better. In fact, Jagex has been getting into the business of doing things like WoW, only again, WoW does them much better.

 

Minigames could have ranks too. I think that a ranking in a minigame would be less redefining than screwing about with skill clarifications.

 

But as I've said, in order for it to be a skill, it would have to integrate into the game. I don't want that though, I want this skill to stay in Daemonheim and never infect the regular, enjoyable game. I don't want any quests to have it as a level requirement. I really, really want to ignore that it's even there.

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As I was trying to imply, WoW is by no means the first to adopt such a model, and to make a comparison to that game specifically is a bit silly considering how radically different the games are. Frankly I don't see how Jagex has been getting into doing things like WoW. Their dungeons are randomly pieces together, if anything they're copying NCSoft's City of Heroes. Their rewards degrade ( -.- ). The game is not class based, and does not restrict you to how many skills you can train. I just don't see the comparison. I see it merely as loathing of WoW (from most people who are making that comparison, and as good as screaming it).

 

I'm sorry you don't find Daemonheim fun, I personally think even in its current state it can be enjoyable, especially if you play it with your friends. I'd like to see some more dungeons, though perhaps executed a little differently as I have mentioned before... like dangerous dungeons with our own gear.

 

Quest requirements... I have to agree on though. I don't see why that would ever be a requirement for a quest, unless they made a similar random configuration quest dungeon. Which might actually be pretty fun if executed correctly, though the whole idea might be way over the top as far as development time is concerned.

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As I was trying to imply, WoW is by no means the first to adopt such a model, and to make a comparison to that game specifically is a bit silly considering how radically different the games are. Frankly I don't see how Jagex has been getting into doing things like WoW. Their dungeons are randomly pieces together, if anything they're copying NCSoft's City of Heroes. Their rewards degrade ( -.- ). The game is not class based, and does not restrict you to how many skills you can train. I just don't see the comparison. I see it merely as loathing of WoW (from most people who are making that comparison, and as good as screaming it).

 

I'm sorry you don't find Daemonheim fun, I personally think even in its current state it can be enjoyable, especially if you play it with your friends. I'd like to see some more dungeons, though perhaps executed a little differently as I have mentioned before... like dangerous dungeons with our own gear.

 

Quest requirements... I have to agree on though. I don't see why that would ever be a requirement for a quest, unless they made a similar random configuration quest dungeon. Which might actually be pretty fun if executed correctly, though the whole idea might be way over the top as far as development time is concerned.

 

No I love and play WoW and am currently experiencing the very end game content of WoW and I agree that this has a lot of similarities to WoW. Not enough to say they completely copied it from WoW, but they're smart enough not to do that aren't they? They simply took many concepts of wow, mixed it with runescape and maybe another game or two, and then tried to call it new and revolutionary...which it is not by any means. Do I find it fun? Yes. Is it innovative? Hell no.

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If I may ask, what specifically are you talking about? I haven't experienced the endgame content on WoW so I wouldn't know about that.

 

Just the basics that most players who play any portion of WoW would even know. The concept of 5 player raiding, the existance of tier armor and weapons the concept of items being soulbound and only being able to destroy them. Those are just to name a few. Also, I know the concept of a multi-layered dungeon is a lot like the pit of trials or whatever it's called in the Zelda series. Randomly generated dungeons, as many have said before, is a concept from Diablo (If I am mistaken, correct me) and the rest of dungeoneering is mixes between pre-existing runescape concepts like the already existant skills and Stealing Creation. I just don't see how a single bit of it is innovative in any way.

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It has been their attitude for a long time not to tell us about future updates? Sorry but it is nothing new.

 

Well they better change this attitude when it comes to catastrophies like this skill. A lot of us are worried about if this skill is eventually going to have a use for training it, not just 1 reward for 80 levels of hard work.

 

Take a look at the Blizzard corporation and how much more successful their game is. Even though WoW costs essentially 3x more to play, they have around 3x as many people who pay to play it. It's because when it comes to major game updates they let you know WAY in advance when something will happen to the gameplay mechanics so that you have time to prepare and/or share your opinion on it. Then, once the content is finished, they put it into beta testing with select players on test realms which means that upon official release the content will virutally be bugless, excluding perhaps one or two bugs that aren't game breaking like the ones Jagex releases.

 

If they want to be considered a serious major corporation, they better start acting like one. Hiding major game decisions from your players without allowing them initial feedback just solely for the fact of "we want it to be a surprise," is not a good enough justification. I want to know if my game is going in a direction I'm at least content with before I keep subscribing. I don't like being left in the dark about something I pay for simply because they think it'll be fun like a surprise birthday party.

 

I completely, 100% agree with you. It's getting very old.

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I just don't see how a single bit of it is innovative in any way.

 

The innovative bit is that they're calling it a skill instead of just a huge content additon eusa_dance.gif Ahh...excuse me XD Sadly, my bitterness has not abated.

 

At least when they 'hyped' up Summoning, I knew what to expect. It was worse not knowing. inb4 ranted about 40 pages ago. :lol:

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It has been their attitude for a long time not to tell us about future updates? Sorry but it is nothing new.

 

Well they better change this attitude when it comes to catastrophies like this skill. A lot of us are worried about if this skill is eventually going to have a use for training it, not just 1 reward for 80 levels of hard work.

 

Take a look at the Blizzard corporation and how much more successful their game is. Even though WoW costs essentially 3x more to play, they have around 3x as many people who pay to play it. It's because when it comes to major game updates they let you know WAY in advance when something will happen to the gameplay mechanics so that you have time to prepare and/or share your opinion on it. Then, once the content is finished, they put it into beta testing with select players on test realms which means that upon official release the content will virutally be bugless, excluding perhaps one or two bugs that aren't game breaking like the ones Jagex releases.

 

If they want to be considered a serious major corporation, they better start acting like one. Hiding major game decisions from your players without allowing them initial feedback just solely for the fact of "we want it to be a surprise," is not a good enough justification. I want to know if my game is going in a direction I'm at least content with before I keep subscribing. I don't like being left in the dark about something I pay for simply because they think it'll be fun like a surprise birthday party.

 

Blizzard is also much more willing to expend capital as an investment to ensure quality products. Jagex does not want to do that. They do not want to spend extra money hiring more people to bug-test or develop their content. They do not want to hire more people to work in CS so that people don't have to deal with bots when they try to appeal offenses (that were also most likely handed out by bots).

 

One issue with beta testing in RS is that it gives everybody involved an unfair advantage. Unless they make you sign a NDA (good luck enforcing it) and make it where as long as you're in the beta-process, you can't ever play on normal worlds (good luck getting anyone to volunteer), people will abuse the knowledge they gain during the beta process. Nevertheless, because this skill is completely isolated and everything is non-tradeable, they COULD have used a beta test with it and it would have really helped.

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I think that's why there's disclosure before they actually release it?

 

And that's also why they beta test it! You don't have to pay beta testers. :P

 

I think for the most part this is why keeping company secrets is silly. Your product could be so much better if people actually wanted it before you release it.

 

If somebody's gonna copy it they're going to copy it. You can't compete on that angle unless you stay ahead of the game rather than rely on trying to be exclusive in a world where everything gets leaked more and more often.

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I think that's why there's disclosure before they actually release it?

 

And that's also why they beta test it! You don't have to pay beta testers. :P

 

I think for the most part this is why keeping company secrets is silly. Your product could be so much better if people actually wanted it before you release it.

 

If somebody's gonna copy it they're going to copy it. You can't compete on that angle unless you stay ahead of the game rather than rely on trying to be exclusive in a world where everything gets leaked more and more often.

 

This is 100% true. I agree entirely. They are trying to keep it so "Only they will have this idea and no one will steal it," but then how that hurts them is they don't truly know how their "audience" is going to react.

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Oh, I'm sure as an activity it would get plenty of traffic given that it gives as a reward what are currently the most powerful weapons in the game (even though they do degrade... <_< ...like so much of the other gear released as of late).

 

I don't think it would have quite fit in as an activity though. The way it works demands that you should have to work your way up in ranks before you are prepared to delve deeper into the dungeon, and making it a "skill" certainly accomplishes that. It also opens up the possibility of future dungeons that tie in with the dungeoneering skill.

 

I certainly agree that it isn't a skill in the traditional sense, though. I think perhaps, if they insist on redefining the very meaning of skill, they should separate skills into distinct categories for more clarity. For example, "stats" for combat skills, "skills" or "professions" for the more traditional skills, and maybe "proficiencies" for skills like slayer and dungeoneering. And please no one scream at me that doing that would make the game more like WoW... just don't...

 

I won't scream at you. I'll just say that WoW does something similar, but does it much better. In fact, Jagex has been getting into the business of doing things like WoW, only again, WoW does them much better.

 

Except that it's quite pointless to assume that just because one game has content similar to that of another game, they're specifically going into business of copying material. It's obvious that with so many different games with different varieties, that one game will eventually end up copying, to some extent, another game.

 

Minigames could have ranks too. I think that a ranking in a minigame would be less redefining than screwing about with my arbitrarily defined preconceptions about skills that I've created without attempting to accept newer and more elaborate skill clarifications.

 

fix'd

 

But as I've said, in order for it to be a skill, it would have to integrate into the game. I don't want that though, I want this skill to stay in Daemonheim and never infect the regular, enjoyable game. I don't want any quests to have it as a level requirement. I really, really want to ignore that it's even there.

 

So, we arrive at the end of the logic train here because everything else is just random [wagon] BS being constantly spewed without any consideration of being the slightest bit hypocritical and/or idiotic.

 

The reason why it's not a skill is intergration. The skill exists solely unto itself in a little world and has no, and I mean, integration into the Runescape whole. That's what skills are, they're things you can do in the world of Runescape, not just on one stupid island/peninsula.

 

I don't want that though, I want this skill to stay in Daemonheim and never infect the regular, enjoyable game.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

 

I could only assume that you think your opinion of how fun this game is should determine whether or not this skill should truly be integrated into the rest of the game, thus supporting your point of view as to how much of a failure skill it is because it lacks integration. I for one love this skill and haven't left since it came out (other than to get 94 herblore with half my bank) and can't wait for batch two, where I hope Jagex fixes some problems with the skill and releases more dungeons outside of Daemonheim that require a Dungeoneering level that you can only train in Daemonheim.

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If you rely on being the first all the time rather than making a good product, you're only surviving on borrowed time until some competitor comes by with an improved version and sweeps all your customers away in a month or so.

 

Perhaps back when they were working on this from the start, it was a unique idea, but now it's only a mere shadow of its true potential.

 

EDIT: You know what they could take away from this though?

 

If they actually used the information gathered from this little isolated experiment to freaking rebalance the combat triangle once and for all.

 

I'm not even sure WHY they think doing it now would be bad. As it is, leaving it like this rather than making the changes would be worse for the future of the game. I mean, they just did constitution, right? They didn't care at all about the complaints.

 

In the dungeon, it feels like everything has some kind of purpose. Then I head back to the surface and it's same ol Runescape.

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...

 

EDIT: You know what they could take away from this though?

 

If they actually used the information gathered from this little isolated experiment to freaking rebalance the combat triangle once and for all.

 

I'm not even sure WHY they think doing it now would be bad. As it is, leaving it like this rather than making the changes would be worse for the future of the game. I mean, they just did constitution, right? They didn't care at all about the complaints.

 

In the dungeon, it feels like everything has some kind of purpose. Then I head back to the surface and it's same ol Runescape.

 

From the Q&A you can tell that they're reluctant to do so, although I'm sure many people complimented them on the improved weapon class system, in particular range and melee. I won't push for that right now though, perhaps postponing it to somewhere in August, when everything has calmed down a ittle. Anyway, the re-balancing would mainly affect bronze-dragon items, since there's too little weapon variety in the upper regions (and most of them break the rule of speed class anyway).

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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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