Hamas executes 2 for Israeli collaboration

[Romy]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/04/15/gaza[Caution: Executable File]cutions/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[hide]The ruling Hamas government in Gaza said it executed two Palestinian men Thursday for collaborating with Israel.

 

"This morning the government carried out death sentences against collaborators Mohamed Ibrahim Ismail, a resident of Rafah, and Nasser Salama Abu Freih of Jabalya on charges of spying for the Zionist occupation and causing the death of many fighters and injuring several others during years of work with the occupation," Hamas said in a statement.

 

The Gaza-based Mezan Center for Human Rights said the two were killed by a firing squad.

 

They are believed to be the first judicial executions in Gaza since 2005 when Fatah dominated the Palestinian Authority. But Hamas has been accused of extrajudicial activity over the years, such as killing and wounding political opponents or alleged collaborators.

 

Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad indicated in a radio interview last month that execution of prisoners found guilty of collaborating with Israel would commence soon.

 

A Mezan Center researcher said that as of March 2009 there were some 17 prisoners in Hamas custody who had been sentenced to death.

 

Hamas seized power from the Palestinian Authority in Gaza in 2007. While courts in the coastal strip have sentenced prisoners to the death for collaboration and murder, no sentences have been carried out.

 

In a report released last month, human rights group Amnesty International's Middle East program director Malcolm Smart said legal proceedings that led to death sentences "failed to meet international fair trial standards" and made any resulting executions "especially abhorrent."

 

Dr. Hassan al-Ouri, a legal adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, called the executions illegitimate, citing Palestinian laws that require death sentences to be ratified by the president.

 

Al-Ouri said that while serving as president, Abbas had not given his approval for any executions, instead changing court sentences to life or less than life.[/hide]

 

 

I can't believe anyone still thinks Hamas won the elections there "legitimately". (check the responses...)

[fastortoise]

I am so flabbergasted by the amount of boring topics that I literally cannot reach my palm to my forehead.

[Romy]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

[scootlaboot]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

I believe this qualifies as OWNED.

 

To be honest we should probably have a sub-forum/topic specifically for news.

[Skeptical]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

I believe this qualifies as OWNED.

 

To be honest we should probably have a sub-forum/topic specifically for news.

 

Good idea.

[Romy]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

I believe this qualifies as OWNED.

 

To be honest we should probably have a sub-forum/topic specifically for news.

 

Good idea.

 

 

I don't see it happening. However, if you find it important, you should post your idea here.

 

 

Oh and guys, please stay on-topic :).

[RpgGamer]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

I believe this qualifies as OWNED.

 

To be honest we should probably have a sub-forum/topic specifically for news.

 

Good idea.

 

I respectfully disagree. Dividing shock news/legit nwes from OT would divide the very population of the OffTopic we all know and love. Besides...wouldn't that imply making a subforum for religion? or drugs? or civil rights? or random youtube links?

 

Leave OT the way it is. It's nice and neat, and all in one place.

[Faux]

You mean news topics?

 

 

I found it interesting, it's news, I posted it. If it bores you, I don't see why you should bother posting.

I believe this qualifies as OWNED.

 

To be honest we should probably have a sub-forum/topic specifically for news.

i've met people out there who find watching bowling interesting. doesn't mean it's acceptable to society

[Pinkbullet3]

[spoiler=Off-topic.]romy, I think we're all too young to make formal conclusions about things like this.

 

I understand that you appreciate getting people to discuss real-life issues like these, but it just seems that if you want to get the appropriate responses, you will have to post something that this age group (16-25, I presume) is interested in.

 

As you can see from the previous posts, it's already getting off-topic.

 

Cruiser once said, "The OT is just a bunch of high schoolers trying to act scholarly."

 

Edit: I severely underestimated the potential of this thread...

 

I shall carry my thickheadedness elsewhere.

 

[Giordano]

romy, I think we're all too young to make formal conclusions about things like this.

 

I understand that you appreciate getting people to discuss real-life issues like these, but it just seems that if you want to get the appropriate responses, you will have to post something that this age group (16-25, I presume) is interested in.

 

As you can see from the previous posts, it's already getting off-topic.

 

Cruiser once said, "The OT is just a bunch of high schoolers trying to act scholarly."

I said I wouldn't post in this thread if it wasn't about the Hamas thing, but, damn that's an awesome accurate quote. :lol:

[RpgGamer]

tbh, I care. I'm pretty pro Israel, but it comes with the territory of my ethnicity. Bias comments are often criticized ones, and this thread was more or less killed after the first response. Shame. Palistineans are often misinformed and come off as ignorant, intollerant and almost terroristlike. But from their side, the Isrealites are not held in much higher regard. but I'm rootin' for the good ol' Isrealites. But again - bias.

[fakeitormakeit2]

I'm anti-Zionism [please do not confuse anti-Zionism with "I hate Jews", very different] based upon my own formulation of opinion through the observation of history and I feel the western media is so pro-Israel it isn't even news because its poisoned with so much bias. Nonetheless the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas are atrocities that I cannot reconcile with my beliefs and they must be eliminated, they are basically bullies. Now personally I would hold the most just and best conclusion to be the formation of the Bilad Al Filistini wa Israeli (The Land of Palestinians and Israelis) were they would have a joint government where there is a dual-executive brand with one being ethnically Palestinian and the other Israeli. That will never happen though as the Israeli government is just as vehement as the Palestinian organizations, many people want peace but only total victory is acceptable for both sides voiced by their heads.

 

To the person above me, if you're calling Palestinians ill informed, they are not less informed than the Israelis and the only reason they have been able to repel the Arabs is because of US aid, which is basically the structure for Israeli survival because it was beneficial for the US to have an ally like Israel in the Middle East and a lot of people were and still are anti-semitic in the West. Again, there was no problem when it was under the Ottoman Empire and Jews and Greater Syrians (referring to the general people of the Levant not saying Syrians are superior) intermingled and they were friendly, but once one foreign group comes in and makes claim to the land that has been occupied since the beginning of records by the same group, it gets a little sticky.

 

I've also felt a bit of distrust of peace-wanting Arabs by Jews. I have affiliated myself with middle eastern Jews [Mizrahi] very very nice people I have met. Now I don't know if it was just bad experiences, every European-descended Jew who has talked to me about Israel basically acclaim how Israel should kill all the dirty Palestinians because its their land and the stupid Arabs are being nasty, I even received a comment that "I'm surprised you didn't stab me in the back when I turned around, Arab"(Lebanese, long story short different). I have no problem with the idea of a joint state, however land seizure by foreign Jews backed by the blessed democracy bearer, I have a big problem with that.

 

So in the end should that region be solely Israel? No. Does it deserve violent retribution by Hamas and other groups? No. They are even more pathetic that they would execute their own people who are obviously so desperately going after peace.

[Romy]

Execuse my elaborated response, I just can't help it.

 

I feel the western media is so pro-Israel it isn't even news because its poisoned with so much bias.

Say what? The international media isn't biased at all, I constantly see it cover Israeli fallacies and the like. I even think the latest "important" issue, of the passports, was way over-covered, and quite frankly, biased against Israel- even though Israel didn't do anything the USA, England, Belgium and China wouldn't do, Israel just got caught and the media celebrated over it.

 

 

Nonetheless the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas are atrocities that I cannot reconcile with my beliefs and they must be eliminated, they are basically bullies.

Except many see it as legitimate, for some reason I'd never understand...

 

Now personally I would hold the most just and best conclusion to be the formation of the Bilad Al Filistini wa Israeli (The Land of Palestinians and Israelis) were they would have a joint government where there is a dual-executive brand with one being ethnically Palestinian and the other Israeli. That will never happen though as the Israeli government is just as vehement as the Palestinian organizations, many people want peace but only total victory is acceptable for both sides voiced by their heads.

I can't believe you even seriously said that...

I can assure you peace is not out of reach for anyone who wants it with Israel, and I have evidence to support that- Jordan and Eygept. I'd like to remind you that the pact with Eygept was formed with a very-right-wing-ish government on Israel's side.

 

Ther reason a dual-state is not a possibility is-

The majority of the Palestinians is not interested in it, even if they claim otherwise. Netanyahu presented his terms for a dual state and these were completely dismissed without the opportunity for serious discussion. I can tell you from my own biased opinion that the Palsetinians are not even after that, if dual-states would ever be achieved, they will NOT be satisfied, they want Israel completely out of there, and you can quote me on that.

 

 

if you're calling Palestinians ill informed, they are not less informed than the Israelis and the only reason they have been able to repel the Arabs is because of US aid, which is basically the structure for Israeli survival because it was beneficial for the US to have an ally like Israel in the Middle East and a lot of people were and still are anti-semitic in the West.

I agree that the US has helped Israel countless times, but I assure you Israel went through serveral wars without definite support from the US, the most surprising one being the very first- Israel used practically CITIZENS to get through it, alongside weapons it bought from the Czech Republic (USA supported with some money, but nothing too serious), and Israel won with great success.

 

Again, there was no problem when it was under the Ottoman Empire and Jews and Greater Syrians (referring to the general people of the Levant not saying Syrians are superior) intermingled and they were friendly, but once one foreign group comes in and makes claim to the land that has been occupied since the beginning of records by the same group, it gets a little sticky.

Israel earned the right to establish through fair votes in the UN.

 

I've also felt a bit of distrust of peace-wanting Arabs by Jews.

With good reason may I add (I don't mean they don't want peace I mean that too many just DON'T want it). I can give you a shocking example here. A peace-wanting-arab that is the son of a "successful" Hamas leader, saw the much hatred on the Palestinian side, and saw it as unjust. He secretly joined the Israeli foces, and when discovered was wanted dead by his own father. Today the poor guy is heavily guarded by Israel with good reason- the second he gets free, he's dead.

 

I have affiliated myself with middle eastern Jews [Mizrahi] very very nice people I have met. Now I don't know if it was just bad experiences, every European-descended Jew who has talked to me about Israel basically acclaim how Israel should kill all the dirty Palestinians because its their land and the stupid Arabs are being nasty, I even received a comment that "I'm surprised you didn't stab me in the back when I turned around, Arab"(Lebanese, long story short different).

Sorry for your bad experiences. However, I don't see how that's relevant.

 

I have no problem with the idea of a joint state, however land seizure by foreign Jews backed by the blessed democracy bearer, I have a big problem with that.

Care to elaborate here?

 

I assure you the illegal settlements could and can be stopped by the other side, if it would just agree to discuss ANYTHING without pre-made terms and conditions.

 

So in the end should that region be solely Israel? No.

It's not that simple, as described above. If you could come up with a brilliant solution I'd be more than thrilled to read it.

 

Does it deserve violent retribution by Hamas and other groups? No.

That's even less simple, especially when some people still look at the Hamas as a genuinely legitimate organization.

 

They are even more pathetic that they would execute their own people who are obviously so desperately going after peace.

Couldn't agree more.

[obfuscator]

It isn't the media per se that's biased in the favour of Israel - rather the american government.

 

You say Israel has fought some wars by itself - this is true.

 

Palestine has fought all its wars by itself.

 

Let me give you an analogy.

 

You work for a long time to buy a new computer. You have it for a while, you like it, you use it, you treat it well. All of a sudden, your parents decide that since your brother used to have a computer 10 years ago which broke, he should get yours, no questions asked. How would that make you feel?

 

I see Hamas as a resistance movement. Although they have long passed what qualifies as legitimate resistance and now borders on terrorism, their cause is not without base. Israel was theirs, and had been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Because of the horrible atrocities that happened to the Jews during WW2, their interests were put above that of the palestinians, and they were given land that their claim to was in ancient history at best.

 

I doubt there will ever be peace between Israel and Palestine - Hamas is far too radical, and Israel has proven constantly willing to stoop as low as they need to protect their own interests.

 

Best thing to do now is combine the countries, split them in half down the middle, make one half Israel, one half palestine, and hope for the best.

[Lenticular_J]

It would take a complete revolution in idealogies of every [bleep]ing person in the Middle East - Islamics, Christians, and Jews - to share the land. They all call it holy, they all want it, and leaders will always do what they do best: turn what could be a beautiful thing for humanity into a cause to gain them power.

 

Romy, you're incredibly one-sided if you think the West isn't insanely biased towards Israel. Everyone over there is generally [bleep]ing everything up.

[Romy]

It isn't the media per se that's biased in the favour of Israel - rather the american government.

Not anymore, I'm pretty sure Obama isn't the best president Israel could hope for, to say the least.

 

You say Israel has fought some wars by itself - this is true.

 

Palestine has fought all its wars by itself.

Yep, by itself along with the armies of Eygept, Jordan, Syria, Iraq....

 

Let me give you an analogy.

 

You work for a long time to buy a new computer. You have it for a while, you like it, you use it, you treat it well. All of a sudden, your parents decide that since your brother used to have a computer 10 years ago which broke, he should get yours, no questions asked. How would that make you feel?[/Quote]

Except there aren't 2 computers, your brother had it for a while, and so did you. And by the way, those "parents" (I'm guessing you mean the world/UN?) actually decided you'd share that computer, you just couldn't agree and went to war the first day your brother got to play the computer... somehow your brother won, but is still willing to negotiate. Oh, and you wouldn't agree to negotiate without pre-declared terms.

 

I see Hamas as a resistance movement. Although they have long passed what qualifies as legitimate resistance and now borders on terrorism, their cause is not without base. Israel was theirs, and had been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Because of the horrible atrocities that happened to the Jews during WW2, their interests were put above that of the palestinians, and they were given land that their claim to was in ancient history at best.

But they weren't given the land, they were given a part of the land (less than 40% if I'm not wrong). The rest was conquered through wars Israel didn't even initiate (with the exception of the Six Days War, which was started by Israel after the Israeli intelligence discovered Eygept is about to attack the very same day).

 

I doubt there will ever be peace between Israel and Palestine - Hamas is far too radical, and Israel has proven constantly willing to stoop as low as they need to protect their own interests.

Interests? Like what? Did you know that almost 50% of Israel's budget goes straight to security, no questions asked?

 

Best thing to do now is combine the countries, split them in half down the middle, make one half Israel, one half palestine, and hope for the best.

Just like I said, that was the case at first, through wars that was changed.

[Romy]

Romy, you're incredibly one-sided if you think the West isn't insanely biased towards Israel. Everyone over there is generally [bleep]ing everything up.

 

I wasn't even referring to the West, I was referring to the international media.

[obfuscator]

It isn't the media per se that's biased in the favour of Israel - rather the american government.

Not anymore, I'm pretty sure Obama isn't the best president Israel could hope for, to say the least.

 

It is true that he isn't as pro-Israli as Bush. However, America still has a stigma attached that they let Israel get away with anything.

 

You say Israel has fought some wars by itself - this is true.

 

Palestine has fought all its wars by itself.

Yep, by itself along with the armies of Eygept, Jordan, Syria, Iraq....

 

Those armies together, x10, don't come close to the equivalent of support from the US. And britian, france, canada, etc...(to a lesser degree)

 

Let me give you an analogy.

 

You work for a long time to buy a new computer. You have it for a while, you like it, you use it, you treat it well. All of a sudden, your parents decide that since your brother used to have a computer 10 years ago which broke, he should get yours, no questions asked. How would that make you feel?[/Quote]

Except there aren't 2 computers, your brother had it for a while, and so did you. And by the way, those "parents" (I'm guessing you mean the world/UN?) actually decided you'd share that computer, you just couldn't agree and went to war the first day your brother got to play the computer... somehow your brother won, but is still willing to negotiate. Oh, and you wouldn't agree to negotiate without pre-declared terms.

 

Why should you have to if it was rightfully yours in the first place?

I see Hamas as a resistance movement. Although they have long passed what qualifies as legitimate resistance and now borders on terrorism, their cause is not without base. Israel was theirs, and had been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Because of the horrible atrocities that happened to the Jews during WW2, their interests were put above that of the palestinians, and they were given land that their claim to was in ancient history at best.

But they weren't given the land, they were given a part of the land (less than 40% if I'm not wrong). The rest was conquered through wars Israel didn't even initiate (with the exception of the Six Days War, which was started by Israel after the Israeli intelligence discovered Eygept is about to attack the very same day).

 

If the winners of world war 2 were so desperate to give Israel some land, why didn't they give them some of their own? How would you feel if they just handed Ohio to Israel instead? Israel would certainly have no right to it, but at least the States would be giving away something they had the rights to, instead of coming in and giving away what isn't theirs.

 

I doubt there will ever be peace between Israel and Palestine - Hamas is far too radical, and Israel has proven constantly willing to stoop as low as they need to protect their own interests.

Interests? Like what? Did you know that almost 50% of Israel's budget goes straight to security, no questions asked?

 

Human rights offenses, invasion of other territories, you name it, Israel has done it. If any other developed country did these kinds of things the consequences would be dire. However, since it's Israel...the states in particular has made a habit of turning a blind eye.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Israel does have to right to defence - but they have continuously overstepped that.

Best thing to do now is combine the countries, split them in half down the middle, make one half Israel, one half palestine, and hope for the best.

Just like I said, that was the case at first, through wars that was changed.

 

So let's put it back, and avert the wars this time.

[Romy]

It is true that he isn't as pro-Israli as Bush. However, America still has a stigma attached that they let Israel get away with anything.

 

Get away with anything? You mean like they do when suicide bombers become something of normality in Israel? Or perhaps when an Israeli soldier is kept hidden without any regards to human rights, including letting the red cross meet him? Oh, I know, you mean when Israel had given up lands time and time again for peace that was never achieved. Or maybe you mean Hamas leaders using Gaza Strip citizens (even children) as human shields...

 

Right, you got me, Israel can get away with anything, it's the rest of the participants that have to suck it up when the world frowns upon them.

 

 

Those armies together, x10, don't come close to the equivalent of support from the US. And britian, france, canada, etc...(to a lesser degree)

 

Pfft, what?! When did Britain, France, Canada, or any other country besides for the USA ever help Israel through wars? And the USA NEVER helped physically, only economically, just like Russia did with the other side.

 

Why should you have to if it was rightfully yours in the first place?

 

Umm...? Define "rightfully yours". As far as I'm concerned, it was "rightfully theirs" at some point too. The "parents" split it up, said your brother should play too. You went to war against your brother and lost, and now you wouldn't even hear your brother without first setting terms.

 

 

Human rights offenses, invasion of other territories, you name it, Israel has done it. If any other developed country did these kinds of things the consequences would be dire. However, since it's Israel...the states in particular has made a habit of turning a blind eye.

I asked for interests that would stop Israel from achieving peace, and you gave human rights offenses as an example? Of an interest? Of Israel's?.....What?

 

Nevermind that. I'd like to see 1 country in the whole wide world that would have one of it's cities constantly bombed at for EIGHT years and not respond.

IMHO, Israel's reactions were way too tender. I bet if anything like that happend to the USA, the other country would be wiped out in a matter of seconds, without any regard to human rights or war crimes.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Israel does have to right to defence - but they have continuously overstepped that.

I can give you countless examples like the ones I listed up this post, I challenge you to show me anything Israel had done that overcomes that.

 

So let's put it back, and avert the wars this time.

 

I can tell you from my own biased opinion that the Palsetinians are not even after that, if dual-states would ever be achieved, they will NOT be satisfied, they want Israel completely out of there, and you can quote me on that.

[obfuscator]

Israel gets away with invasions,breaking peace treaties, bombing civilian neighbourhoods, assasinations by their intelligence service...the list goes on and on. I'm not attempting to say palestine is innocent; indeed they are far from it, but Israel isn't just a victim here.

 

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

 

In terms of "assistance", yes, you are correct - there was no military assitance. But the social, economic, and other assistance has been huge. I'll believe that Israel isn't being given special treatment when Iran openly has nukes but is allowed to skip out on a nuclear deweaponization summit.

 

Israel has peace as it's interest, I have no doubt of that...it is the methods I object to. They have proven time and time again they are not willing to be the better man, and that they must retaliate, time and time again, commiting human rights offenses shunned by other developed countries.

 

You think the US would attack without any regards to human rights? Do you not see the stories in the news? The commissions, the inquireies, the panels, the shouts of war crimes at the slightest provocation? The citizens keep the US in line. They may invade, yes, but with far more respect for their opponents than Israel has otherwise shown.

 

Of course Palestine won't be happy with dual states - why should they have to give up which is theirs? Any agreement less than palestine regaining control of the entire region gives palestine the short end of the stick and Israel the gain.

[Romy]

Israel gets away with invasions

Again, any land conquered by Israel was conquered through wars Israel did not initiate, with the exception of the Six Days War. If it's the illegal settlements you're referring to: I agree those are wrong, but trying to bring forward the discussion was tried by Israel, the Palestinians only agree to do it with pre-made conditions, as odd as that, Israel temporarily stopped the illegal settlements, so that discussion could be had. Nothing happend.

 

,breaking peace treaties,

Like those that were made for giving up the Gaza strip, Sinaï, and other lands? Both sides had broken peace treaties, there's no point in accusing one side.

 

bombing civilian neighbourhoods,

A. Bombing Sderot became something that's done on a daily basis, with the sole purpose of hurting Israeli citizens.

B. These civilian neighbourhoods were used by Hamas members to cover for themselves- So should Israel just not do anything, so not to hurt civilians, despite the fact that the other side had done so for 8 whole years?

I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying there's no other choice.

 

assasinations by their intelligence service

I feel like a broken record, but that's something I can assure you every first world country does, including the USA- Israel just got caught.

 

...the list goes on and on.

I'd love you to keep listing then.

 

I'm not attempting to say palestine is innocent; indeed they are far from it, but Israel isn't just a victim here.

Ofcourse not, Israel had done wrong many, many times, I never said Israel is just a victim here.

I can tell you I'm personally extremely furious at some of Israel's doings, but I believe that despite everything (on both sides), peace can be achieved if wanted.

 

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

They didn't invade, they received the right to establish a country by the UN.

 

In terms of "assistance", yes, you are correct - there was no military assitance. But the social, economic, and other assistance has been huge. I'll believe that Israel isn't being given special treatment when Iran openly has nukes but is allowed to skip out on a nuclear deweaponization summit.

Do you seriously believe Iran should own nukes? Can you not see anything wrong with that?

Maybe it's just me, but I feel safe when countries like USA, France, and Israel own nukes, but I'd be terrified if Iran owned nukes...

 

Israel has peace as it's interest, I have no doubt of that...it is the methods I object to. They have proven time and time again they are not willing to be the better man,

Israel is willing to sit and discuss, I don't see what else you expect.

 

and that they must retaliate, time and time again,

Again, Sderot was bombed at for 8 years before Israel did anything- Oferet Yetzuka. Hamas had agreed to stop bombing Sderot if Israel stops that operation. Israel stopped and 3 days later Sderot was bombed again.

 

commiting human rights offenses shunned by other developed countries.

I don't get it? When Israel commits human rights offenses you're stunned, but when the rest do you're not?...Why?

 

You think the US would attack without any regards to human rights? Do you not see the stories in the news? The commissions, the inquireies, the panels, the shouts of war crimes at the slightest provocation? The citizens keep the US in line. They may invade, yes, but with far more respect for their opponents than Israel has otherwise shown.

I don't think you understand how serious this is. A city of innocent citizens was getting attacked by bombs and constantly, for eight years. I can only imagine the American people reacting one way if that ever happend to say... Seattle.

Yes, I do think the USA would attack without paying much attention to human rights given that situation, all countries would.

 

 

Of course Palestine won't be happy with dual states - why should they have to give up which is theirs? Any agreement less than palestine regaining control of the entire region gives palestine the short end of the stick and Israel the gain.

 

You expect one side to agree to help it's enemy at getting stronger, even though you claim that side won't be happy until the other is destroyed?

[fakeitormakeit2]

 

1.

I feel the western media is so pro-Israel it isn't even news because its poisoned with so much bias.

Say what? The international media isn't biased at all, I constantly see it cover Israeli fallacies and the like. I even think the latest "important" issue, of the passports, was way over-covered, and quite frankly, biased against Israel- even though Israel didn't do anything the USA, England, Belgium and China wouldn't do, Israel just got caught and the media celebrated over it.

 

2.

Nonetheless the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas are atrocities that I cannot reconcile with my beliefs and they must be eliminated, they are basically bullies.

Except many see it as legitimate, for some reason I'd never understand...

 

3.

Now personally I would hold the most just and best conclusion to be the formation of the Bilad Al Filistini wa Israeli (The Land of Palestinians and Israelis) were they would have a joint government where there is a dual-executive brand with one being ethnically Palestinian and the other Israeli. That will never happen though as the Israeli government is just as vehement as the Palestinian organizations, many people want peace but only total victory is acceptable for both sides voiced by their heads.

I can't believe you even seriously said that...

I can assure you peace is not out of reach for anyone who wants it with Israel, and I have evidence to support that- Jordan and Eygept. I'd like to remind you that the pact with Eygept was formed with a very-right-wing-ish government on Israel's side.

 

Ther reason a dual-state is not a possibility is-

The majority of the Palestinians is not interested in it, even if they claim otherwise. Netanyahu presented his terms for a dual state and these were completely dismissed without the opportunity for serious discussion. I can tell you from my own biased opinion that the Palsetinians are not even after that, if dual-states would ever be achieved, they will NOT be satisfied, they want Israel completely out of there, and you can quote me on that.

 

 

4.

if you're calling Palestinians ill informed, they are not less informed than the Israelis and the only reason they have been able to repel the Arabs is because of US aid, which is basically the structure for Israeli survival because it was beneficial for the US to have an ally like Israel in the Middle East and a lot of people were and still are anti-semitic in the West.

I agree that the US has helped Israel countless times, but I assure you Israel went through serveral wars without definite support from the US, the most surprising one being the very first- Israel used practically CITIZENS to get through it, alongside weapons it bought from the Czech Republic (USA supported with some money, but nothing too serious), and Israel won with great success.

 

5.

Again, there was no problem when it was under the Ottoman Empire and Jews and Greater Syrians (referring to the general people of the Levant not saying Syrians are superior) intermingled and they were friendly, but once one foreign group comes in and makes claim to the land that has been occupied since the beginning of records by the same group, it gets a little sticky.

Israel earned the right to establish through fair votes in the UN.

 

6.

I've also felt a bit of distrust of peace-wanting Arabs by Jews.

With good reason may I add (I don't mean they don't want peace I mean that too many just DON'T want it). I can give you a shocking example here. A peace-wanting-arab that is the son of a "successful" Hamas leader, saw the much hatred on the Palestinian side, and saw it as unjust. He secretly joined the Israeli foces, and when discovered was wanted dead by his own father. Today the poor guy is heavily guarded by Israel with good reason- the second he gets free, he's dead.

 

7.

I have no problem with the idea of a joint state, however land seizure by foreign Jews backed by the blessed democracy bearer, I have a big problem with that.

Care to elaborate here?

 

I assure you the illegal settlements could and can be stopped by the other side, if it would just agree to discuss ANYTHING without pre-made terms and conditions.

 

(I numbered the responses so that its clear to what I'm responding)

1. Actually American media is very pro-Israel and American government is very pro-Israel. Obama's administration (I say administration because the prince has three puppeteers behind him) isn't so pro-Israel as Bush but it still is. And Israel got caught so the media had a field day on that specific issue but it doesn't make it any less a wrong thing to do because other countries would do it.

 

2. Some may see it as legitimate but their power isn't from popular sovereignty, it's from being a bully.

 

3. The reason why Egypt made a pact with Israel is because they got whipped and it was beneficial. Jordan is Israel friendly because the Palestinians tried to take Jordan and His Majesty expelled them in the Black September, now they're the burden of Lebanon and the Urduni would rather not deal with them again.

 

Many Palestinians do want peace, it isn't their fault they're represented by belligerent terrorists. And I wouldn't blame them if they were not satisfied by a two state resolution, they were there and then uprooted. If you mean dual-state as in for both groups to live under the same government, the Israelis would never do that because they harbor the misconception they've been granted the land when they really just use a high hand to keep it from those who lived there.

 

4. Israel would have been smashed to pieces and the Jews expelled by the 70s if the US didn't fund them, particularly when Nixon turned up the amount given to them. And yes, let us not forget the tactics the Jews used against the Arabs, like the Deir Yassin Massacre and then the city was used as a new settling housing for Jewish immigrants, which is one of the many examples of Jewish occupation and settlement of non-Jewish territory.

 

5. Of course they received the majority of the UN vote, none of the other nations had to give up their land so it was good, Britain and France had to move out of the area soon as it was getting harder to control resistance as the only "Arab" nation that liked European occupation was Lebanon. The UN means nothing anyway, they've been reiterating for 41 years for Israel to stop illegal settlement that violate the Geneva Convention and Resolution 242 [which was passed 15-0] and it hasn't stopped them, a UN vote (or any international law for that matter) is only valid if it is beneficial to Israel.

 

6. Why should the Jews be suspicious of those who want peace? Isn't that a good thing?

 

7. I was saying I would have absolutely no problem if there was the country of Palestine & Israel because if Jews would want to apply for the citizenship of such a country than it would be of their own accord and nothing illegal. However when you're foreigners who come from far away to invade a long occupied area and disregard property deeds that have been held valid for generations there is no reason why there is Israeli hatred. Answer this hypothetical question; if you had something for a long time that was a family heirloom and you had pride in it, but a cousin said your great grandfather received it unfairly [because his great grandfather, the brother of yours, had been kidnapped so he was not physically present to inherent it] so he's taking it back and his friends assist him in its acquisition, is that fair? Now apply that to Israeli and Palestine.

 

There should be no negotiations in regards to illegal settlement, it is violating an international agreement, Israel is disregarding a resolution of an organization they are part of as well as the disregard of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

Edit: Oh yes and Israel claims to a more just side but they broke a ceasefire when even Hamas honored it in 2008 and they've been starving the Gazans with the blockade and they have killed their economy as its olive-export based. Don't be so quick to think Israel is so just, both sides are covered in blood.

[Romy]

[hide]

 

1.

I feel the western media is so pro-Israel it isn't even news because its poisoned with so much bias.

Say what? The international media isn't biased at all, I constantly see it cover Israeli fallacies and the like. I even think the latest "important" issue, of the passports, was way over-covered, and quite frankly, biased against Israel- even though Israel didn't do anything the USA, England, Belgium and China wouldn't do, Israel just got caught and the media celebrated over it.

 

2.

Nonetheless the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas are atrocities that I cannot reconcile with my beliefs and they must be eliminated, they are basically bullies.

Except many see it as legitimate, for some reason I'd never understand...

 

3.

Now personally I would hold the most just and best conclusion to be the formation of the Bilad Al Filistini wa Israeli (The Land of Palestinians and Israelis) were they would have a joint government where there is a dual-executive brand with one being ethnically Palestinian and the other Israeli. That will never happen though as the Israeli government is just as vehement as the Palestinian organizations, many people want peace but only total victory is acceptable for both sides voiced by their heads.

I can't believe you even seriously said that...

I can assure you peace is not out of reach for anyone who wants it with Israel, and I have evidence to support that- Jordan and Eygept. I'd like to remind you that the pact with Eygept was formed with a very-right-wing-ish government on Israel's side.

 

Ther reason a dual-state is not a possibility is-

The majority of the Palestinians is not interested in it, even if they claim otherwise. Netanyahu presented his terms for a dual state and these were completely dismissed without the opportunity for serious discussion. I can tell you from my own biased opinion that the Palsetinians are not even after that, if dual-states would ever be achieved, they will NOT be satisfied, they want Israel completely out of there, and you can quote me on that.

 

 

4.

if you're calling Palestinians ill informed, they are not less informed than the Israelis and the only reason they have been able to repel the Arabs is because of US aid, which is basically the structure for Israeli survival because it was beneficial for the US to have an ally like Israel in the Middle East and a lot of people were and still are anti-semitic in the West.

I agree that the US has helped Israel countless times, but I assure you Israel went through serveral wars without definite support from the US, the most surprising one being the very first- Israel used practically CITIZENS to get through it, alongside weapons it bought from the Czech Republic (USA supported with some money, but nothing too serious), and Israel won with great success.

 

5.

Again, there was no problem when it was under the Ottoman Empire and Jews and Greater Syrians (referring to the general people of the Levant not saying Syrians are superior) intermingled and they were friendly, but once one foreign group comes in and makes claim to the land that has been occupied since the beginning of records by the same group, it gets a little sticky.

Israel earned the right to establish through fair votes in the UN.

 

6.

I've also felt a bit of distrust of peace-wanting Arabs by Jews.

With good reason may I add (I don't mean they don't want peace I mean that too many just DON'T want it). I can give you a shocking example here. A peace-wanting-arab that is the son of a "successful" Hamas leader, saw the much hatred on the Palestinian side, and saw it as unjust. He secretly joined the Israeli foces, and when discovered was wanted dead by his own father. Today the poor guy is heavily guarded by Israel with good reason- the second he gets free, he's dead.

 

7.

I have no problem with the idea of a joint state, however land seizure by foreign Jews backed by the blessed democracy bearer, I have a big problem with that.

Care to elaborate here?

 

I assure you the illegal settlements could and can be stopped by the other side, if it would just agree to discuss ANYTHING without pre-made terms and conditions.

 

(I numbered the responses so that its clear to what I'm responding)

1. Actually American media is very pro-Israel and American government is very pro-Israel. Obama's administration (I say administration because the prince has three puppeteers behind him) isn't so pro-Israel as Bush but it still is. And Israel got caught so the media had a field day on that specific issue but it doesn't make it any less a wrong thing to do because other countries would do it.

 

2. Some may see it as legitimate but their power isn't from popular sovereignty, it's from being a bully.

 

3. The reason why Egypt made a pact with Israel is because they got whipped and it was beneficial. Jordan is Israel friendly because the Palestinians tried to take Jordan and His Majesty expelled them in the Black September, now they're the burden of Lebanon and the Urduni would rather not deal with them again.

 

Many Palestinians do want peace, it isn't their fault they're represented by belligerent terrorists. And I wouldn't blame them if they were not satisfied by a two state resolution, they were there and then uprooted. If you mean dual-state as in for both groups to live under the same government, the Israelis would never do that because they harbor the misconception they've been granted the land when they really just use a high hand to keep it from those who lived there.

 

4. Israel would have been smashed to pieces and the Jews expelled by the 70s if the US didn't fund them, particularly when Nixon turned up the amount given to them. And yes, let us not forget the tactics the Jews used against the Arabs, like the Deir Yassin Massacre and then the city was used as a new settling housing for Jewish immigrants, which is one of the many examples of Jewish occupation and settlement of non-Jewish territory.

 

5. Of course they received the majority of the UN vote, none of the other nations had to give up their land so it was good, Britain and France had to move out of the area soon as it was getting harder to control resistance as the only "Arab" nation that liked European occupation was Lebanon. The UN means nothing anyway, they've been reiterating for 41 years for Israel to stop illegal settlement that violate the Geneva Convention and Resolution 242 [which was passed 15-0] and it hasn't stopped them, a UN vote (or any international law for that matter) is only valid if it is beneficial to Israel.

 

6. Why should the Jews be suspicious of those who want peace? Isn't that a good thing?

 

7. I was saying I would have absolutely no problem if there was the country of Palestine & Israel because if Jews would want to apply for the citizenship of such a country than it would be of their own accord and nothing illegal. However when you're foreigners who come from far away to invade a long occupied area and disregard property deeds that have been held valid for generations there is no reason why there is Israeli hatred. Answer this hypothetical question; if you had something for a long time that was a family heirloom and you had pride in it, but a cousin said your great grandfather received it unfairly [because his great grandfather, the brother of yours, had been kidnapped so he was not physically present to inherent it] so he's taking it back and his friends assist him in its acquisition, is that fair? Now apply that to Israeli and Palestine.

 

There should be no negotiations in regards to illegal settlement, it is violating an international agreement, Israel is disregarding a resolution of an organization they are part of as well as the disregard of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

Edit: Oh yes and Israel claims to a more just side but they broke a ceasefire when even Hamas honored it in 2008 and they've been starving the Gazans with the blockade and they have killed their economy as its olive-export based. Don't be so quick to think Israel is so just, both sides are covered in blood.

[/hide]

 

1. The media is not pro-Israel. I don't see a point in elaborating here since I said it isn't, and your response was "it is".

 

Obama also isn't pro-Israel. I can tell you there's a bit of a hype in Israel because of Obama.

 

As for it being wrong, sure. But don't you find it hypocritical that countries like Englad would declare their relations with Israel are no longer as they used to be because of that incident, even though England did and will do it in the future aswell?

 

2. I don't think the reason matters as long as these are the results.

 

3. You didn't understand why I even mentioned these pacts. It doesn't matter what are Joran and Eygept's reasons- they wanted peace, and they got it.

 

I am not blaming those that do want peace with anything at all, I'm saying the majority just does not. Back when I still played Runescape regularly I used to be a part of an Israeli clan. Every few days 20 arabs or so would join the clan so they could annoy us- kicking wasn't an option because they just joined, said whatever it is they were saying, and left before you could do anything, and then repeat. Unfortunately, our clan leader had quit years ago, and starting a new clan wasn't a realistic option because of the size of our clan- informing everyone would take years. At some point everyone in my clan got very tired of them, the generals got experienced at speed-kicking, etc.

One day, only 1 joined (I was the only online general that day), and said he's not here to annoy anyone, he just wants peace. Being the only one in my clan who even cares about politics, and despite that clan being for Israelis only, I was thrilled with his suggestion, I literally couldn't stop smiling for a few minutes. Guess what? It was just some childish, dumb prank.

These guys are definitely not to be an example for all arabs at all, but that's not the only place me, my clan, and many other Israelis see hatred.

I'm not trying to play the victim, I'm saying that after these experiences, and after experiences with giving out land for, basically, nothing, I'm not surprised so many don't trust Palestinians.

 

I'm not going to argue over whether or not Israel deserves the land, because we already had a very long argument over it on another thread some time ago. I do ask you to be realistic- Israel is here to stay, and is not going anywhere. Since it's a democratic country, which means the citizens get to have a say on Israel's doctrine, and since many citizens also don't think dual-states are what the Palestinians are after- what makes you think they'd even want that? And why would they? Why would anyone help someone get stronger, while knowing that someone wants him dead?

 

Oh, and no, I meant 2 states with different governments, just like Netanyahu offered.

 

4.I agree that illegal settlements are a problem, and are wrong. I would stop them myself if I could. However, sitting and discussing with Israel is all it takes to stop those.

 

5. Again, I'm not going to argue whether or not Israel deserves the land because we already discussed that quite a bit.

 

"a UN vote (or any international law for that matter) is only valid if it is beneficial to Israel."

Weren't you the one who said Israel didn't follow all of the UN's demands? Rather contradicting...

 

6. Explained on #3.

 

7. "there is no reason why there is Israeli hatred"....no reason? What about suicide bombers, Sderot getting bombed, innocent Israeli citizens being killed for no reason, Israeli soldiers kidnapped and held without any regards to human rights or captured rights, the many wars held against Israel from every [bleep]ing border, nukes developed in Iran, Israel having to clear up half of it's budgest for security purposes, political parties INSIDE Israel wanting it's downfall, Muslim extremists, Israel giving out land for peace and not getting it, and the simple fact that hatred encourages hatred? I could probably go on a lot.

 

As for your question- what if that family heirloom belonged to Israel at one point aswell? It's not black and white, and discussing whether Israel deserves it or not is pointless, for the simple reason that Israel is not going anywhere- Instead of that, why not discuss solutions for the situation?

 

 

"There should be no negotiations in regards to illegal settlement, it is violating an international agreement, Israel is disregarding a resolution of an organization they are part of as well as the disregard of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

"I agree that illegal settlements are a problem, and are wrong. I would stop them myself if I could. However, sitting and discussing with Israel is all it takes to stop those."

 

 

"Oh yes and Israel claims to a more just side but they broke a ceasefire when even Hamas honored it in 2008"

Maybe it's because I just woke up, but I don't recall Hamas ever honoring ceasefires.

 

"they've been starving the Gazans with the blockade"

1. Israel is sending constant supply to Gaza.

2. They had to block other sources of supplies, for the mere fact that alongside these resources, weapons are sent in very large quantities- and with the intent to shoot at citizens

 

"they have killed their economy as its olive-export based"

You mean through war? Yes, that and people being killed are usually the results of wars.

 

"Don't be so quick to think Israel is so just, both sides are covered in blood"

Don't put words in my mouth, I'll be the first to say Israel is covered in blood. Both sides have done unspeakable things, but Israel is willing to discuss things.

Look, I completely relate to the Gazans, I can't baer to even think what their lives are like, but the only true solution I could ever see feasible is peace.

[SeanyTheSailor]

1. The media is not pro-Israel. I don't see a point in elaborating here since I said it isn't, and your response was "it is".

Really it isn't? The recent thing about the Israeli assassins was the only negative thing I've ever seen on the news that was really criticized. Just last year Israel bombed i think it was Gaza for 13 days, supposedly because Hamas launched a missile into Israel(lets be clear I'm not saying they didn't but if i remember correctly nobody was killed by it) The final toll was over 1000 dead Palestinian civilians including women and children, and you could even argue that some were militants, and 7 yes, SEVEN dead Israelis. But no one ever said wait "what the hell?!" also you'll never see pictures like this in the media. Here's a hint, if you live in America, YOU payed for that tank, and no he isn't throwing a grenade that's a rock. Everyone has seen the video of the student blocking the tanks going to Tienanmen square, but then why haven't you seen this? BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO! I'm sorry but if you truly believe that American media isn't biased toward Israel you're just ignorant. Also lets be clear I don't support any terrorist organization for ANY cause no matter how justified it seems.

[Lord_Omar_Iv]

Was Israel Ever Legitimate?

 

 

 

 

 

Also id like people to think about this question,

 

Has the existence of Israel since 1948 made the world a safer place?