Tip.it Times 18 April 2010

[firebird308]

And having to leave shouldn't be a problem for anyone, since the annoying long process of actually getting out of the damn place ensures you get xp for the progress you made in the dungeon, which is quite a fair amount from what i've seen.

 

It can be a problem if the reason you have to leave is because an emergency comes up that requires you to leave the computer. Or possibly something more minor but no less needed like having to take a bathroom and/or food break.

[strilmus]

Yeah, I think with the next Dungeoneering update, they will figure out how to temporarily save sessions so that you and perhaps your buddies can take a break without having to rush a fairly large dungeon just so you can save your progress and leave....or just make it so that if you are all suddenly booted outside the dungeon, you can pick up where you left off without any kind of ragequitting involved.

 

I mean, since they are planning to make single player sessions savable, I think there would be no reason to make it impossible for teams either.

[A0z9]

Hi :)

 

I quite enjoyed the first article, it was a nice summary of the last couple of years in Runescape.

 

I can't say the same for the second article though. Firstly I just want to say: I love Dungeoneering. It's definitely my favourite update of the last 12 months. However, you've completely ignored the majority of Runescape players when you say it's unpopular; far from it. I spend a huge amount of time on the RSOF (I'm an FMod there) and although there have been many complaints about it, there have been hundreds less than with some of the other updates this year (Strykewyms and Constitution come to mind). Nearly everyone I know absolutely loves it, and the general feeling seems to be one of popularity, not rejection.

 

In case you needed more proof, the number of people playing Runescape at one time hit the 200k mark today for only the second time in the last year (the other time was during the Bonus XP weekend). This is because of the new skill.

 

I know many people say it's a minigame, and I can see why. However, I think I know what Jagex were thinking when they made it a skill instead. Runescape revolves around skilling; that is an undeniable fact. However, most skilling is just grinding; people nearly always choose the boring way to play instead of what is fun in the game (as highlighted in last week's Times. By making this a skill (and therefore a core piece of content) they're trying to change the focus of the game from boring grinding to more interesting ways of playing.

 

Also, it's far too big to be a minigame. No minigame compares to the size of Dungeoneering.

 

Plus, when you ask what can it offer the game, have you seen the rewards? Like Slayer it offers new weapons, as well as a whole load of other useful items. They're also releasing a new batch of rewards soon, as well as making the prices more realistic. I'd call this the most useful single skill in terms of helping train other skills, apart from perhaps Summoning.

 

And it completely baffles me when people call it repetitive; compare it to other skills, and it's one of the least repetitive and most varied in the game!

 

So I love it, and I am certain the people who hate it are in the minority ;)

Off topic: Hey nas, how are you? I love reading your threads in Future Updates!

 

On topic: I actually agree with both articles, except when the 2nd autor said the minority like the update.

[waheera1]

Hrmm... Not sure what to make of these - seems both articles didn't really provide any insightful thoughts about their chosen subject matter.

 

Article 1 was ok, but did it really shed new light on an old topic? I'm afraid I didn't think so, plus it was also factually dubious - is 5.6k really the pre-summoning value of dragon bones?! Or 6.3k for an uncut emerald? Or is the author only talking about weapons and armour? This wasn't made entirely clear, yet has the capacity to nullify pretty much the entire article. Added to which, there was no mention at all of key issues in pricing such as caused by junk trades etc. Whilst that may not seem such a huge issue, it has basically made the G.E. useless in terms of buying rare items - NOBODY will sell you a blue phat for 439.9M, so the ge pricing of such items is irrelevant in considering their alleged street value. I'll wager blue phats weren't allegedly worth over 1bn before summoning...

 

Article 2 was again flawed by its lack of precision. The author completely failed to mention the utterly arbitrary reward level requirements, whereby the lvl 21 bonecrusher requires xp for lvl 74 before you can buy, or the lvl 25 gem bag requires somewhere around 52. Nor did the f2p nerf get a mention, something which has utterly incensed many f2p players and will no doubt prompt several of the high lvl 'f2p pures' to quit too. There are just too many holes in this summary for it to really stand as a fair representation of the massed disappointment shown by many.

 

It has also missed out the constructive criticism offered by numerous people, offering Jagex insight into how their players would like to see Dungeoneering updated - not all dissenters are trolls or unfairly dismissive. Many, like myself, actually rather like the concept, but find its current incarnation unacceptable.

[yuriqiu]

Dungeon is an pretty fun MINIGAME in my opinion. I honestly felt that Jagex felt pressured to release a new skill so they packaged a minigame as a skill. Is it fun? yes. Is it really a skill? I would debate that it is not.

[A0z9]

Dungeon is an pretty fun MINIGAME in my opinion. I honestly felt that Jagex felt pressured to release a new skill so they packaged a minigame as a skill. Is it fun? yes. Is it really a skill? I would debate that it is not.

So? It's 10x bigger than Falador, it has countless content and it is completely randomised, and you call it a minigame?! Not even the largest minigame in all games is that big!

[zotto]

I found the second article overly negative, opinionated and not representative at all. Maybe articles like that should start with a big disclaimer.

 

Outraged people

I think people who get outraged because a skill gets released on a MMOPRG probably have some personal issues that surpass those they find so awful in the game.

 

That is because it's a game. You don't have to play. You certainly don't have to play all aspects of the game. If you don't like dungeoneering, then don't do the skill. End story. No need to get upset about it. People suffer and die for no good reason at all over the world every day. I think you have lost perspective of life if you get upset about changes to a game.

 

Dung'ing is a minigame

If someone wants to call a massive piece of content a 'mini'-game they can, but semantically there isn't any logic in that. Maybe the term maxi-game would be more appropriate. Or why not just suck it up and call it a skill.

 

Personal experience with dung'ing

I am currently level 30 dungeoneering and I both did solo dungeons and a few with a friend. I found both experiences enjoyable. In fact, I currently hardly do any other skills at the moment, that is outside the dungeons.

[CurrantBunbury]

The subject of the first article is interesting. I'd like to look into the economics of Runescape in more depth - as a completely self-contained system, it's fascinating. On an unrelated note, the article was appallingly written This person needs a proofreader.

[waheera1]

Dungeon is an pretty fun MINIGAME in my opinion. I honestly felt that Jagex felt pressured to release a new skill so they packaged a minigame as a skill. Is it fun? yes. Is it really a skill? I would debate that it is not.

So? It's 10x bigger than Falador, it has countless content and it is completely randomised, and you call it a minigame?! Not even the largest minigame in all games is that big!

 

Size is not the only determining factor here, surely you can see that? Compare dungeoneering and its xp/reward systems to any other skill, is it managed in a similar fashion? No, not really. Compare it to a minigame (sc, ba and even trouble brewing spring to mind here), are there obvious similarities? Yes. That's why it's being called a minigame, of course, if you apply the prefix 'mini' literally here then size is a determining factor. However, I don't think anyone posting about its minigame similarities pays any attention to its size so if you must be pedantic, call it a maxi-game as someone else suggested. Whatever you call it, the similarities are really rather obvious.

 

Personally, I don't care if it's a minigame or a skill, as I think it has great potential to become one of the most-played content updates in RS for some time to come. That said, I do believe it needs an update patch rather like summoning received before it can fulfill the potential that it so tantalisingly offers.

[tortilliachp]

I'm very surprised, and deeply disappointed in seeing an analysis in the content of the new skill immediately, before players have had time to experience the content, and jagex has been given room to integrate the skill into other activities, rather than just releasing skills.

 

This week i was expecting analysis on how jagex have released skills in the past, and how a skill should be released. Batches, quests, skill integration, what is as skill, and so on and so forth. Those are the current events, we must wait to see how things progress, or pass judgement. Get back to us in 3 months at the soonest, when this type of article is relevant.

 

There are SO many possibilities, all discarded for analysing the actual skill prematurely, which in iself i would consider a cardinal sin of publication. Analysis is done after an event has transpired, not while it is ongoing. While a story still runs one analyses what should be done, what has been done, and what may happen in the near future. History is the judge of legacy, not the contemporary.

[Returned3]

i cnt stand dungeoneering. one reason is if my friends arent on i cnt train it that well and i hate playing with random ppl bc they alwys end up being morons. also its just boring and if your gonna give out armour and weapons etc, make them more accessible. i will prob never do the skill again bc its just aweful

 

Despite the horrid language, he does have a valid point. Multiplayer Minigames/Activities/Skills with too much freedom usually end up horrid unless playing with friends. The reason activities such as Pest Control or Castle Wars don't have such a problem is because they are simply focused on one straight objective without any other distractions. Whereas Dungeoneering relies heavily on loots and obtaining the various raw materials to produce armour/food to complete the main objective. Most of the time when playing with complete strangers, each player will no doubt try to loot everything possible to produce the armour/food for themselves first before thinking about others. With the limited supply in the dungeons, this leads to a problem where either 1 player is completely powerful while the remaining are defenceless or all players have random items in their inventory that hardly do any good.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do love Dungeoneering. Although I have been solo-ing all the way.

[Racheya]

Don't worry, we aren't just taking an immediate opinion on the skill and leaving it at that ;) Expect more articles on Dungeoneering in the future when a better more 'long term' view can be taken.

[rthensley]

I love Dungeoneering, but sadly, it is not a "true" skill. It is an incredible, in-depth, maxi-game (as opposed to "mini").

[king_muumuu]

In the first article, last paragraph (I think):

 

prices would have changed naturly.

 

I'm surprised no one noticed that, or cared enough to post about it. Quite a slip by the editor/proof-reader.

 

I find the argumentation in the second article very flawed, the vocal dissatisfied minority in the forums by no means represent most of RS's population. I liked the skill just fine, and I don't feel the need to go and compliment Jagex for it. I'm sure many, many other people feel just the same.

[Racheya]

If you PM that to Mirrorforced, he'll be able to fix it in the article :thumbup:

[king_muumuu]

If you PM that to Mirrorforced, he'll be able to fix it in the article :thumbup:

 

I know this is off-topic, but I love your avatar =D

 

And thanks, sent him a message.

[tortilliachp]

Don't worry, we aren't just taking an immediate opinion on the skill and leaving it at that ;) Expect more articles on Dungeoneering in the future when a better more 'long term' view can be taken.

 

but this opportunity to comment on the present and compare it to the past of runescape, with regards to skills being released, is lost. A perfect view can already be enjoyed of the release of the initial skill, why settle for a "worse view" in the current article, as you aptly note, the present does not satisfy the demands to write the article, however skilled a writer you have, so why publish anything on the topic?

[Mirror]

Don't worry, we aren't just taking an immediate opinion on the skill and leaving it at that ;) Expect more articles on Dungeoneering in the future when a better more 'long term' view can be taken.

 

but this opportunity to comment on the present and compare it to the past of runescape, with regards to skills being released, is lost. A perfect view can already be enjoyed of the release of the initial skill, why settle for a "worse view" in the current article, as you aptly note, the present does not satisfy the demands to write the article, however skilled a writer you have, so why publish anything on the topic?

Consider it a first look opinionated article. That is the reason I chose to publish it. We all have opinions, so are we not entitled to say it? It has spurred discussion which is the aim of pretty much every article, so I believe the writer has done a great job. I personally don't believe with everything that was said, but as I said, it is opinionated. Maybe my mistake was to put up a disclaimer at the beginning. If I read correctly (or maybe I misinterpreted it) but it was said that with future updates it could prove to be more, which is to say that this opinion on dungeoneering isn't settled in stone.

 

I hope this clears why I decided to publish this article. If you have any further questions, feel free to shoot me a PM. :)

[Infi]

Enjoyed the articles, both were pleasant reads. Just wanted to ask a slightly unrelated question about the "Did you know" section. Do you guys make them up as you go from the writers, editors and Tip.It staff themselves or rely on users? I wouldn't mind contributing some of my DYK myself. Anyways, keep up the good work writers, editors and staff.

[Mirror]

DYK's are submitted by everyone you can imagine. Currently we are dry, so I am accepting any and all submissions right now. Feel free to PM me any DYK or Guest Article you may have. :)

[ForsakenMage]

Well like Racheya said, expect more articles about the new skill in the long term.

 

(Un)fortunately, I'm up next week! :P It'll still be considered short term, but hopefully the tangent I go on can apply to future skill updates (if any)...

 

OMG SPOILERS NOOOES! XD

[fulkske]

which they stated would take around thirty minutes. Instead, it took an hour and thirty minutes and in this time

 

Can you please edit your article with actual facts and not misinterpreted information?

Jagex clearly stated that the amount of time that would be rolled back was 30 minutes, they never said it would take 30 minutes to complete the roll back.

 

I wouldn't bother replying to this information if you hadn't used it as an argument for why players were mad over dungeoneering, but you did so meh.

 

Edit: and of course, I agree with king muu muu

 

You made the key mistake of taking those few (yes, based on the entire runescape playing community, the complainers are few) complainers and generalising it towards everyone.

 

You never hear people that are satitsfied with an update, it's always the people who don't like it that will be heard. That's why you may never forget that there's the other group that likes it and doesn't take the time to go on forums and say what they think of it.

[waheera1]

You made the key mistake of taking those few (yes, based on the entire runescape playing community, the complainers are few) complainers and generalising it towards everyone.

 

You never hear people that are satitsfied with an update, it's always the people who don't like it that will be heard. That's why you may never forget that there's the other group that likes it and doesn't take the time to go on forums and say what they think of it.

 

Just as Mirrorforced has no means to determine whether it is the majority complaining, neither do you to assert that it is in fact a minority. The fact is, there are plenty of people peed off at this update, as well as plenty who aren't but since there's no requirement to offer feedback on the forums there are a good many people who don't bother. End result either way is that you're merely speculating without unassailable facts, which seems like a poor set of foundations to criticise someone from.

 

Also, stating that you never hear people that are satisfied with an update seems a bit of a bold statement. Have you never looked on RSOF after a new patch note thread comes out, to see all the sycophantic berks concerned with licking jagex's boots and squabbling over first posts?! :P

 

Just as there are dissenters who regularly complain, so there are plenty of people who are less discerning/more realistic/apathetic/optimistic etc who will regularly post in favour of even the most insignificant update. There have been plenty of those out in force on the forums too with regard to dungeoneering, how can you (or indeed any of us) prove that either side has more support? We can't. I don't even think Mirrorforced was attempting to suggest that everyone hates the skill, whatever the other shortcomings of the article may have been.

 

Also, just as an aside, this is the first update in 5/6 years that has required a rollback (probably longer, but that's just from when I started playing). They've never done it before, no matter how serious the problems in game, which leads me to the conclusion that there were some pretty big issues with this set of updates. That alone gives credibility to those posting constructive criticism, far better to acknowledge this than stick your head in the sand and ignore the legitimate thoughts of those not currently enamoured of this new skill.

 

Disclaimer: I do not in any way endorse the pointless trolling/flaming that often occurs with illiterate fools attacking jagex in leetspeak and other degenerate dialects, my comments are merely to show some support for those who take the time to create constructive critiques with a genuine desire to improve the gaming experience. There is a big difference between the two.

[P_E_N_N_Y]

Indeed there is always the problem of updates being judged too soon, especially major ones, but the only thing about dungeoneering that can't really be accurately defined at the moment is how much xp per hour you'll get once people move up to the higher levels. By the time i'd reached level 30 (mainly solo dungeons) i'd used the full breadth of all my skills through 15 floors and as it stands there's no different high level content or advancements in the skill (except different boss fights) just random floor after random floor, so i see no reason why the skill can't be judged as fairly as any other right now as long as people have actually tried it.

 

I personally like it, but people who don't and are upset DO have the right to be, after all isn't it our money paying the content developers salaries? The argument of "if you don't like it don't play it" is always the first, and it's something i used to believe for a long time as well, and it's true for the majority of activities in the game i'd say, but when such hype has been built up over such a small (compared to other skills) and relatively meaningless addition to the rest the of the game then whether this credo still holds true or not... it's still quite a kick in the teeth. However big the total area of every room may be you're still just going through pretty much the same floor after floor after floor, with a lick of paint now and then.

[Yay0siris]

people like to complain for the sake of complaining. just because you don't like 1 skill, doesn't mean you have to go and quit runescape. there are many skills in runescape i do not like and refuse to train. i understand the jagex staff has put much effort into these skills, but certain aspects just don't excite me enough to put my time and effort into the skills. for every person who doesn't like a skill, i am sure there is another person who loves it. you can't accomodate everybody in this day and age. i think with when rs was first born, there was a list of brand new skills, so if you didn't like one you could move onto the next. but with runescape today, if you don't like a new skill, you have to wait around a year to see if you like the next one. the only people i could see who would be really upset over this skill are those who already achieved maxed stats in every skill and then comes dungeoneering, and they don't like it enough to train to 99, so their glorious maxed stats are now tainted. it's a game, it's meant to be played for fun. when it stops being that, you need to sit back and look at yourself.