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Tip.it Times 26 April 2010


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#21
Earth_Poet
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Yes, Dungeoneering uses many different skills, but here's the problem. If you need a higher level in one of those skills, then Dungeoneering is the LAST place to be. Don't bother training Dungeoneering until all of your other skills are leveled up. It'd be like having to kill chickens and ogres until your combat was maxed out BEFORE starting on Slayer. It'd be like having to get 99 Mining before you can even smith that first ore, because ores can only be bought with mining tokens. You will not accumulate anything while playing Dungeoneering. It's a one way street for skills.

Originally, I liked the mini-game feel, because it worked away from the grinding effect. Now I feel it grinds worse than any other skill. It wouldn't be so bad, but I can't take anything with me. Except for this worthless ring. Yeah, you HAVE to take that with you. So I have to run around making armor and building enough cash to get materials to make my armor only to have to start all over again at the start of each new floor. I might be able to understand losing items when you leave the dungeon, but after each floor? Again, nothing can be accumulated. Which means you're getting out of it exactly what you're putting into it: nothing.

You may not want to mention rewards, but you have to wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these arbitrary requirements. Congratulations, you are level 21 Dungeoneering and can now use a Bonecrusher. Yeah. Thanks. Except it's going to take me till level 40 before I can get enough tokens to buy the damn thing. Why not just make the requirements level 40? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

The only reason why I was doing Dungeoneering was because I wanted to keep up a total level, but screw it I could care less now.
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#22
Llavada
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It's clear that Dungeoneering isn't what most people in this game would recognise as a skill, but it's obviously far far more than another mini-game

In fact it's more like an expansion pack where players put their existing knowledge, experience and abilities to the test

Jagex should have introduced this as "THE SUPERSKILL" with the tagline "ARE YOU READY FOR THE ULTIMATE RUNESCAPE CHALLENGE?"

(They shouldn't have used that pathetic ring as the skill icon but rather the RuneScape sword from from the front page)

And they should left have Dungeoneering off the normal Hiscores, rather sticking it at the top of the list in its own category in big huge letters, so that high levels in it brought uber-high game status

If Dungeoneering had been released in this matter then i feel that players would have responded much more positively
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#23
Asmodeous4
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It's clear that Dungeoneering isn't what most people in this game would recognise as a skill, but it's obviously far far more than another mini-game

In fact it's more like an expansion pack where players put their existing knowledge, experience and abilities to the test

Jagex should have introduced this as "THE SUPERSKILL" with the tagline "ARE YOU READY FOR THE ULTIMATE RUNESCAPE CHALLENGE?"

(They shouldn't have used that pathetic ring as the skill icon but rather the RuneScape sword from from the front page)

And they should left have Dungeoneering off the normal Hiscores, rather sticking it at the top of the list in its own category in big huge letters, so that high levels in it brought uber-high game status

If Dungeoneering had been released in this matter then i feel that players would have responded much more positively


Us RSer's aren't THAT simple. ;) (And Attack icon bring back any memories?)

#24
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Great article this week, even though there is only one. :|

I had mixed feelings about this skill too, considering it was difficult being efficient during solo runs. The goal of this skill (in order to be more efficient in this skill) is to go with a group. For example:

Say you need 88 Runecrafting to open a door, and yet you have 60.
During a solo run, you wouldn't be able to open this.
However, in a group, you have a possibility of opening this door becuase someone else just might have the requirement (or be able to boost to the level) to open.

I understand what FSM is trying to say, but I couldn't help but to say this.
Think of this as a way to 'fill in the gaps'.

So far, I love this skill. ;-) Cannot wait to see what the expansion set is going to be.

-Echocut

The only thing they need to change is the shape of the crecent. In the inventory, it looks like a banana, but on the door it has a Pac-Man shape to it. *Remembers being in a dungeon for 10 minutes longer because I couldn't get that connection*
I knew I could find out what the key is by right-clicking and whatnot, but still. #-o

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#25
3hitm4g3u
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I can't work out if Jagex purposely made Dungeoneering as boring as possible to make the rewards harder to get or if Jagex had a group crack-smoking session while playing WoW and came up with Dungeoneering during it.
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#26
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I can't work out if Jagex purposely made Dungeoneering as boring as possible to make the rewards harder to get or if Jagex had a group crack-smoking session while playing WoW and came up with Dungeoneering during it.


Instanced dungeons have existed for ages, I remember playing an SNES RPG with this dungeon that was randomly produced and different every time (I think it could have up to 30 floors) and anyone who's played a hack and slash game of D&D has probably done a crawl through a randomly generated dungeon (or two, or three). WoW may be famous for raids and raiding, but it's hardly the only place to get inspiration for randomly generated dungeons (or even the most likely, I'd bet my left sock that more than a few Jagex developers have played D&D at some point).
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#27
qeltar
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There have been some very involved debates about the skill/minigame issue, even right here on this forum. Compared to them, that article struck me as oversimplified and far from convincing.
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Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill!
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#28
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I personally love dungeoneering. I know almost for certain, simply by the way it is set up with the storylines and all that, that there will be another dungeon eventually. And by the way, i was reading something from jagex the other day about a void knight quest. after that i looked at all those letters and thougt of Dungeoneering, and i thougt of this: this new quest will have monsters (from dungeoneering) from another dimension! voila! think of that. keep thinking... keep thinking.... okay stop. there.

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#29
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I, um.....I'm sorry.

The DYK is like saying "Use keys to open doors!"

Perhaps you should try something else like "NPC human mobs in the dungeon have the same defence values associated with the type and tier of armor they are wearing. This also applies to their weapon and attack style." or "The smuggler can give you tips on how to fight the boss once you've found it." or "Gatestones can be used to escape the boss room except for certain foes like the Icefiend."

Maybe just "In dungeoneering, fires made from higher grade wood are less likely to burn fish." That one isn't immediately obvious.


Although I already knew the DYK, I don't see how that would be common knowledge. I mean, not like you can sell blue charms for 5k+ gp anywhere ELSE in the game, can you? And nice DYK's of your own - I didn't know/forget the smuggler could give you boss tips. Not everyone would think of using the gatestone to escape the boss. Same with the fires. Took me a while to figure those two out.

On topic: until dungeoneering actually offers something to the game, something more then rewards purchased via tokens, I don't think many people will view it as a full complete skill. (Although some of those rewards are nice...tome of frost and arcane pulse next time I burst/barrage rock lobsters? :) )

Yes, Dungeoneering uses many different skills, but here's the problem. If you need a higher level in one of those skills, then Dungeoneering is the LAST place to be. Don't bother training Dungeoneering until all of your other skills are leveled up. It'd be like having to kill chickens and ogres until your combat was maxed out BEFORE starting on Slayer. It'd be like having to get 99 Mining before you can even smith that first ore, because ores can only be bought with mining tokens. You will not accumulate anything while playing Dungeoneering. It's a one way street for skills.

Originally, I liked the mini-game feel, because it worked away from the grinding effect. Now I feel it grinds worse than any other skill. It wouldn't be so bad, but I can't take anything with me. Except for this worthless ring. Yeah, you HAVE to take that with you. So I have to run around making armor and building enough cash to get materials to make my armor only to have to start all over again at the start of each new floor. I might be able to understand losing items when you leave the dungeon, but after each floor? Again, nothing can be accumulated. Which means you're getting out of it exactly what you're putting into it: nothing.

You may not want to mention rewards, but you have to wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these arbitrary requirements. Congratulations, you are level 21 Dungeoneering and can now use a Bonecrusher. Yeah. Thanks. Except it's going to take me till level 40 before I can get enough tokens to buy the damn thing. Why not just make the requirements level 40? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

The only reason why I was doing Dungeoneering was because I wanted to keep up a total level, but screw it I could care less now.


Ah, here's the thing. You DON'T need maxed skills in Dungeoneering to do it well. Except maybe for the occasional stupid door. Like the 90 something str door that I couldn't open because I couldn't get a damn herb to make a damn potion to boost my damn str level. They really ought to sell herbs, or at least herb seeds.

Anyhoo. Bit offtopic. But what you need in there is balanced skills - and to not have combat significantly better then your other stats. If you only have say 60 att/str/def, but have the mining/smithing levels to make armour for level 60att/str/def, perfect. However, if you have the stats to make say level 80 armour (and yes I know they have tiers and such but whatever) and have maxed combat, it kinda sucks.

Oh, and I don't think Dungeoneering was planned as a mini-game before it was turned into a skill. Pretty sure it was planned to be it's own damned game, before Jagex realized how well it worked with runescape. Which explains why it kinda feels like its own game....

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#30
pokemama
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Although I already knew the DYK, I don't see how that would be common knowledge. I mean, not like you can sell blue charms for 5k+ gp anywhere ELSE in the game, can you? And nice DYK's of your own - I didn't know/forget the smuggler could give you boss tips. Not everyone would think of using the gatestone to escape the boss. Same with the fires. Took me a while to figure those two out.

These tips and more are included in our Dungeoneering Skill Guide. ;) Have a look! :thumbsup:
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#31
roanlo
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Dungeoneering, if I recall correctly, was meant to be a mini-game but later geared to be a skill instead. I guess for now we just need to wait and see how dungeoneering will play a part in the game outside of Daemonheim. This is probably the key to defining what Dungeoneering is because right now the fact that we can only train it in ONE PLACE gives it a feel of a mini-game (in addition to the tokens of course), whereas agility for example has many areas to train in.

Still fun to discuss and debate on what dungeoneering is though. ^_^


IT was actually originally meant to be a game of it's own, not a 'mini-game'. They decided the aspects of it could be implemented into runescape (the skills), so.. well they did lol.

I would also like to say, there is such a thing as "rushing". Much faster exp overall. Best used in groups of two or more (as with solo, you tend to take much longer times to kill things, therefore taking longer times to finish the dungeon).
With rushing, it's basically just combat, and maybe smithing/fletching/runecraft if you want to make a strong pickaxe (bwuak beast), bow or a few runes for gatestone/curses.

Additionally on that aspect, you don't have to use every skill. When i solo, i only fish if there is litterally no food left, i have close to no 'lifepoints'/prayer left and i've still got the entire boss+more to do.
I almost never woodcut, unless i want a bow, the logs i can buy from smuggler anyone.
And blah blah for the rest of the skills.

Oh, and on the cash, charms can be alched for big cash. Blue charms=11k FTW :P
___
On dugeoneering's future. There will be a patch update in the next month or so (disappointed with that, one of the mods said it wouldn't be liked summoning where it was rush {patch update}). That will include the rest of floors, bosses and rewards.
Everyone can be certain that in the future some quests will involve dungeoneering, or exploring a cave/dungeon. Also, more areas will open up, perhaps the dwarves stumbled upon a similar circumstance as the frimeniks did?
You don't need to wait for jagex to "confirm" they will be making more areas. Sure it may take a long time, but dungeoneering opens an extremely large possibility of future events in runescape.

___
What it is at the moment.
Here's my straight opinion:
Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.
Is like, hunter: -> Higher levels allow more accessibility (more traps). With Dunge, you can bind more armor/weapons.
Is like, construction -> can only be done in one place. Different to construction though, dungeoneering basically locks you there, like in real life. Reading some of the journals, the mahjorat that went down there spent over a century there. And Thok and his brother? spent quite a long time as well ( a few things i think).
Is like, Quests -> The area holds an (multiple) actual storylines. Including Thok's himself, the human bosses, the majhorat and why the other demonic monsters are there. In future, more storylines could unfold with future dungeons.
Is like, an activity -> Purely for the token aspect. A different way of obtaining the items may fixed this (perhaps special rooms/dungeons that relate to the item. Like with the anti-poison totem, you could have been challenged to fight in a room that constantly poisons you, and you must stop the poison killing you)

#32
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I like your thoughts about what it could be useful for outside Daemonheim. I personally think we will be able to get more inventory space somehow with this skill, they have to make this skill somehow useful like summoning which is very helpful! And of course more special treasure trails, Lvl 4 any1? Requiring dungeoneering too.

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6 Effigys
1 D Med - 1 D Dagger
1 Verac's Helmet - 1 Guthan's Platebody


#33
Earth_Poet
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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.


Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.
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#34
Sire_Mark_II
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The article tries to suggest that Dungeoneering is similar to older skills, yet the examples completely contradict this idea. Skills improve what your character can do. Increase the levels of your gathering skills and you can collect better resources. Increase the levels of your processing skills and you can make better equipment. Slayer and Agility seem to sit outside those two a bit. Basically higher levels of Slayer means being able to combat monsters with generally more valuable loot. A higher agility lets a player get around the world quicker, both with run energy restoring quicker and the shortcuts.

But how does Dungeoneering improve a character? You acquire no resources for use outside Daemonheim. You have no additional processing abilities. No new areas outside where you need to go to train this so called skill open up. Dungeoneering itself offers absolutely no benefit to playing the rest of the game. The only thing that is worthwhile is the rewards, which you purchase with tokens. That doesn't sound like a mini game/activity. It IS a mini game.

Activities (still have to get used to calling them that) differ from skills and do one or both of two things for the player. Test their current skill levels and provide rewards to show off or use for training. I think Castlewars was the first mini-er I mean activity, followed by the Tzhaar pits and cave. They mostly served to entertain players with high skill levels, particularly in combat, and give them a safe challenge compared to PvP. The newer activities started to include training the skills while you played them because Jagex realized that repeatedly clicking on a rock or tinderbox and logs was just god awful boring.

So does Dungeoneering match activities? You utilize multiple skills, possibly all them, in an effort to complete levels/floors to be rewarded with tokens that can be used to get unique items that benefit the other skills.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy running a few floors now and then. I like the teamwork aspect. I like that people can be thrown onto a team without having to have friends willing to drop what they're doing to come with you instead. I like being challenged a bit and actually having to try different methods to kill beasties and manage that inventory to get the best results. But to build up anticipation for a new skill and give us Barbarian Assault II was a bit of a slap in the face. Call it what it is, and treat it like it should be. Dungeoneering is a great activity!

#35
Quyneax
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Well, I think the article is somewhat too fast in drawing its conclusion, but I think Dungeoneering can be a skill. I just hoped for pitons, ropes and natural caves, as the present dungeons are somewhat boring. Aside from that, I think we can look forward to the following new skills:
  • Articism
  • Mountaineering
  • Foresting
  • Sailing/Swimming/Oceaning
  • Deserting

My point: learning to use the environment to its full potential is indeed a challenge, but I don't think dungeons are sufficiently different from dark nights in mountainous environments. So my suggestion is to create "Survival" or something like that, a skill covering things like climbing, swimming, and the manufacturing of tools (never bring a hammer on quests again!).
Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions
99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)
99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)
99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)
99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)
99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)
Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring
Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace
30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

#36
roanlo
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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.


Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.

I was not referring to the "drops" or "rewards" in any aspect of slayer until i mentioned the tokens. So no need for sarcasm-.-
I stated it is like slayer for the higher level you get, the more things you can kill.
As for the exp, again, was talking about slayer, not combat. In any case, if it were regular experience, all dungeoneering would become is a separate game inside Runescape. Which, as i said, was what it original was.

Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.
Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.

#37
Othelbark
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Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.
Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.


Just what i was trying to say.
Very well put!

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#38
Earth_Poet
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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.


Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.

I was not referring to the "drops" or "rewards" in any aspect of slayer until i mentioned the tokens. So no need for sarcasm-.-
I stated it is like slayer for the higher level you get, the more things you can kill.
As for the exp, again, was talking about slayer, not combat. In any case, if it were regular experience, all dungeoneering would become is a separate game inside Runescape. Which, as i said, was what it original was.

Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.
Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.


It sounds like you don't want to agree, but you can't find a way to disagree either. First, two weeks seems a fair enough time frame for an individual to form his or her own opinion. Second, by your logic, we equally have to disregard every statement made about Dungeoneering since they've been given the same amount of time to make their assessment.

The sky may be the limit in Dungeoneering, but I can only critique what actually exists at this moment. Why would speculation trump that? I would share your opinion if some of that "potential" had actually been implemented already.

But it wasn't.

I do see the potential. Whenever I'm Dung'ing I think what a waste. It had real potential to be great, but instead it comes off as bizarre, boring, and awkward.

I will disagree with your Summoning and Farming examples. Both had more uses on release. Farming has only ever had one major use: herbs. Everything else is generally used to pad xp. I may be mistaken, but I thought Cooking and Herblore were updated alongside Farming's release. Summoning was more of a pain to use, and was quickly overhauled. It may be a cynical thought, but I also believe they were a little more motivated to get Summoning right coming off the heels of the Anti-RWT campaign. If Jagex does choose to overhaul the skill in the future, then I might change my opinion the same way I did for Summoning after its makeover.

I don't think it matters what I think anymore anyways. Over the past year or so they keep pumping bizarre and stupid updates into this game. It's not that Jagex is incompetent; I believe the devs are some of the best at what they do in their field. After reading Jmod posts on RSOF it's pretty clear this is the direction Runescape is heading whether we like it or not. I've got about two weeks membership left and I'm not going to renew. It's a shame because I had always considered myself a big fan of the game. But what can we do? You have to suffer through my last few ravings before I finally quit.
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#39
jamesrules90
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The mods said they weren't planning on expanding dungeneering outside of Daemonheim.
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#40
orangejellyfirst
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Well first of all this is not like WoW almost at all. Instanced dungeons are the only similarity. In this it is as unique as you could get for dungeons. Also they are releasing a lot of new stuff eventually and are gonna make the skill much better.
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