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Both feminists and MRAs would both be a lot happier and more successful if they understood that when life throws a challenge at you, adapting to the challenge is a lot more effective than complaining about the challenge and refusing to adapt

This is why I don't follow politics. I've never met someone who became a happier and more successful person as a result of getting emotionally invested in "issues."

If something isn't affecting you personally in your day to day life, don't worry about it. If something is affecting you in your day to day life, figure out how to adapt in the simplest way possible.

 

One of my favorite quotes:
"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

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SJWs. I don't like being called the enemy or being expected to apologize for something I didn't do.

Similarly, I dislike being completely discredited because I happen to care about the kind of people that really only exist as a punchline. In the interest of not causing a shitstorm, can I concede that both sides need better people?  :-P

 

 

Yeah your going to get terrible people in any group. 

 

As far as SJWs go. I bet you find the "white privilege" punchline that flys around facebook a bit patronizing and beside the point. And largely it is, it comes off as a poo ball that gets thrown at people who really don't have much influence in the political or corporate world, ie: people youre friends with on facebook. You get really bad loaded terms because all this is grass roots and it is how people feel about the situation.

 

This privilege thing is pretty much the problem I have with them. As for the rest of the causes, I pretty much tried to steer clear of politics and other such debates simply because I see the whole thing as unnecessary stress that's going to resolve itself one way or the other without my input anyway. The place where I have a personal problem with SJWs is pretty much where Ring World said: how being a white male is pretty much their equivalent of original sin. Another problem is how calling them out on it generally leads to the accusation that I hate them because I don't care about equality, when really it's because I don't like being called guilty of something I never did.

 

In my day to day life, I don't treat people better or worse depending on race or sex or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, as long as that's true, I am not part of the problem, and I'd appreciate people not saying I am.

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Get back here so I can rub your butt.

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SJWs. I don't like being called the enemy or being expected to apologize for something I didn't do.

Similarly, I dislike being completely discredited because I happen to care about the kind of people that really only exist as a punchline. In the interest of not causing a shitstorm, can I concede that both sides need better people?  :-P

 

 

Yeah your going to get terrible people in any group. 

 

As far as SJWs go. I bet you find the "white privilege" punchline that flys around facebook a bit patronizing and beside the point. And largely it is, it comes off as a poo ball that gets thrown at people who really don't have much influence in the political or corporate world, ie: people youre friends with on facebook. You get really bad loaded terms because all this is grass roots and it is how people feel about the situation.

 

This privilege thing is pretty much the problem I have with them. As for the rest of the causes, I pretty much tried to steer clear of politics and other such debates simply because I see the whole thing as unnecessary stress that's going to resolve itself one way or the other without my input anyway. The place where I have a personal problem with SJWs is pretty much where Ring World said: how being a white male is pretty much their equivalent of original sin. Another problem is how calling them out on it generally leads to the accusation that I hate them because I don't care about equality, when really it's because I don't like being called guilty of something I never did.

 

 

I just "unfollow" (I don't unfriend) all of my outspoken political friends on FB so I don't have to read their articles and rants on my newsfeed. I also no longer have to be tempted to poke holes in their logic. I've been so much happier ever since.

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Hm? How exactly would you adapt to that sort of thing? Just from my own experiences, there's really not much you can do when a strongly ingrained social issue slaps an opportunity out of your hands.

 

 

Give me a specific example and I'll tell you what I'd do

The topical one is being a racial minority and being denied fair treatment and representation in law enforcement, which could also tie back in to the fact that poverty is one big positive feedback cycle, which is another thing in itself.

The one that seems to be relevant to a couple of OTers is being a sexual minority and essentially having to choose between your family or your identity.

 

I'm not the best at examples, and it's not helping that I can't easily get statistics and quotes and the like from here.

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You're still being pretty vague >_>

 

If I was 18, poor, and had zero work experience I'd find a job in entry level 100% commission sales. There's several companies in every major US city that will hire ANYONE (including homeless people!) because it's entry level and 100% commission. Then I'd save that money up while I come up with my long-term career goal, and eventually change jobs accordingly. Alternatively, I'd spend as much time as possible in a library devouring every book on business, entrepreneurship, wealth, etc. that I could get my hands on and build my own business.

 

If my family no longer accepted and supported me, I'd minimize my time spent with them. If I didn't already, I'd find my own place to live in (and maybe find a roommate to cut costs). A 100% commission sales job would easily fund a decent apartment in a decent location.

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@muggi and Ring, you're both making gross oversimplifications that are essentially the "just pull yourself up by your bootstraps" myth. The idea that racial minorities and people living in poverty can just go ahead and start working towards leading a successful life is a nice idea that completely ignores the reality of most people's situations. I volunteer at what's widely regarded as the most ethnically diverse high school in the country, where about 80% of the students receive free lunch from the government due to the fact that they're below a certain income level. I primarily work with them to help them achieve post-secondary goals, be that a university, community college, technical school, or whatever else. This includes educating them about financial aid, scholarships, proofreading essays, etc.

 

The point of me bringing this up is that these kids lead significantly more difficult lives than you or I, and making claims that they should just go ahead and start working harder/smarter to ultimately achieve equality is about as useful as telling the president to "work harder" to fix the economy. One of the students I work with, who's a girl who moved to the US from the Philippines a few years ago, has just one living parent who's disabled and can't work a job, is attending community college and high school at the same while working part time and playing a sport, has no source of transportation other than the school bus, and is relying on government assistance to do pretty much everything from eating to paying for school stuff. She works harder than I ever have in my life, and is getting better grades than I did in high school. But she herself has told me that she'd have no idea what she'd be planning post-high school if it wasn't for the help of the program I work with. But these sorts of programs are rare, and many students like my mentee can't make use of them because of family issues, needing to work after school to make money for their family, etc. While these problems aren't unique to minorities, they're much more prevalent due to the feedback loop of systemic racism and economic inequality that Alg alluded to earlier.

 

Your posts themselves make great examples of the essence of the idea of privilege. You have the privilege to assume that these kids have the information to know about those kinds of opportunities (such as working a sales job, knowing that going into the military is a good segue to being a police officer). You have the privilege to assume that these kids have the ability to get reliable transportation that would make these opportunities possible. You have the privilege to assume that, while they're an ethnic minority from a low socioeconomic background, they would be fairly considered for positions that they ultimately seek out. 

 

It's easy to make those kinds of assumptions as a white heterosexual middle-class male (all of which are categories I belong to), but they're based purely on the experience that we have living lives that are fundamentally different than those experienced by minorities. While there are opportunities to succeed in America for minorities, the ingrained, systemic inequalities that have been perpetuated for centuries make things far from the equal playing field that many see the country as being today.

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You managed to miss the main point of my post then. Nowhere am I saying that it's impossible to succeed as a minority or as someone in poverty. Nowhere am I saying that hard work isn't something valuable that anyone could achieve a lot of benefits from. Your family members, as well as countless others have shown that it's very possible to succeed under adverse circumstances. You're kind of inadvertently supporting exactly what I'm saying by showing how hard so many minorities in the US have to work to become successful. Like you said yourself about your own family, they had to take a lot of extra steps and go through a lot of effort to get to where they were. But all that necessary effort isn't shared by the majority of white people in the United States. Why do you think it is that, for example, Hispanic people in the US are so disproportionately represented amongst the rich in the U.S. when compared with white people? If you're asking me at least, it's due to past and present racial separation, oppression, and perpetuation of racial roles. And again, OF COURSE it is still possible to move past these barriers and work hard enough to be successful. But the role of social justice is to help dismantle those barriers and create a level playing field. 

 

Take the metaphor of a short one mile foot race. One of the athletes has gotten a head start while the other racers have to stand at the starting line, waiting 30 seconds until they're allowed to start running. Is it possible for these racers to be equal with, or surpass the first runner before getting to the finish line? Sure. Through hard work, training, and determination, they could have a realistic shot at doing just as well or better. But why is all that extra effort necessary? Why should that one runner get that unfair advantage? To me, the idea of social equality is to remove that kind of advantage so that everyone has an equal playing field.

 

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Figuring out how to level the playing field of racial and socioeconomic inequality is one of America's biggest present challenges, and it's not something I have all the answers to, nor does anyone else yet really. But increased financial aid for post-secondary education for minorities, certain types of affirmative action policies, and in-school programs like the I one I work with that work with diverse, low income schools to supply information on job skills and scholarships for them for college is a good start. These help to give a social and economic boost to certain demographics that might not otherwise get that helpful extra leverage. And with those policies, the hope is to normalize diversity in traditionally white-dominated areas and ultimately level the playing field. 

 

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You managed to miss the main point of my post then. Nowhere am I saying that it's impossible to succeed as a minority or as someone in poverty. Nowhere am I saying that hard work isn't something valuable that anyone could achieve a lot of benefits from. Your family members, as well as countless others have shown that it's very possible to succeed under adverse circumstances. You're kind of inadvertently supporting exactly what I'm saying by showing how hard so many minorities in the US have to work to become successful. Like you said yourself about your own family, they had to take a lot of extra steps and go through a lot of effort to get to where they were.

That's exactly my point. It's completely possible for them to be successful. They just have to put in more effort than a "privileged" person would. Is that fair? No. But if you choose to do nothing, and instead just choose to whine about how unfair it is, you're never going to be successful.

 

And that's the thing: nobody's perfect. Nobody's privileged in every aspect of life. I could be considered privileged from a financial/educational standpoint, but I'm nowhere near privileged when it comes to my health and my dating life. I could've easily just whined about my shitty genetics and tried to get the world to treat me differently because of my physique, but I decided I'd be better off just putting in lots and lots of hard work in order to get to the level of fitness that so many people have naturally. And I could easily whine about how unfair it is that women didn't like me without having to do a major overhaul of my social skills and personality quirks.

 

But all that necessary effort isn't shared by the majority of white people in the United States. Why do you think it is that, for example, Hispanic people in the US are so disproportionately represented amongst the rich in the U.S. when compared with white people? If you're asking me at least, it's due to past and present racial separation, oppression, and perpetuation of racial roles. And again, OF COURSE it is still possible to move past these barriers and work hard enough to be successful. But the role of social justice is to help dismantle those barriers and create a level playing field.

We'll have to disagree with the role of social justice here. IME a lot of people believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE for disadvantaged people to become successful. They don't believe that with enough hard work and determination, they can achieve the same level of success as a privileged person. Allowing people to believe that no matter how hard they work, they'll never be successful isn't helping anyone.

 

Take the metaphor of a short one mile foot race. One of the athletes has gotten a head start while the other racers have to stand at the starting line, waiting 30 seconds until they're allowed to start running. Is it possible for these racers to be equal with, or surpass the first runner before getting to the finish line? Sure. Through hard work, training, and determination, they could have a realistic shot at doing just as well or better. But why is all that extra effort necessary? Why should that one runner get that unfair advantage? To me, the idea of social equality is to remove that kind of advantage so that everyone has an equal playing field.

 

When you start operating from the perspective of how the world "should" be, rather than how the world actually is, you're getting into dangerous territory. Many of my friends are well into their 20s now and they're depressed and unsuccessful because they refuse to change their habits and behaviors. Why? Because they don't think that they should have to. They think the world should change for them. After all, that's what's "fair."

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I have a hard time taking anyone who uses the term "SJWs" seriously. Now it's basically just a pejorative term used to generalize anyone who shows sympathy for minorities. Subreddits like r/tumblrinaction are poisonous circlejerks that point to a few dumb posts by impressionable teenagers, shout "SJW! SJW!" then expand the term to anyone who speaks out for things like feminism or racial equality. 

 

If you think the 'SJW' mentality is only exuded by dumb teenagers on tumblr, you've never had an encounter with anyone in student politics. These people are real, and they aspire to hold positions of power. There's a huge difference between showing sympathy for minorities and being an 'SJW' (for lack of a better term). You can care about social issues without believing white people are inherently evil, being straight or male is oppressive, or blaming the worlds problems on the 'patriarchy'. 

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As a maverick who hardly uses social media I've never met or spoken to any of these femnazis, crazy vegans and other radicals that apparently exist. All I hear about is people complaining about them, and these moaners have been far more annoying than the radicals they complain about. You do realize there are entire websites out there where people like pedophiles, neo-Nazis and racists meet up and talk about the twisted things they'd like to do? Yet you're worried about a couple of young idiots on tumblr? Get some damn perspective.

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I'm probably misinterpreting your post highlanders, but it seems like you're trying to dismiss the "complainers'" arguments simply on the grounds that you've never met the group of people that they're complaining about, and that there are other more dangerous groups out there. But that doesn't really make any sense or make their complaints any less valid. I've never met a pedophile or neo-Nazi so by your logic, anyone who's whining about pedophiles and neo-Nazis should worry about something else and "get some damn perspective." >_>

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The fact that recently on 9gag my country has been shown as some wannabe Nordic country. How come we are wannabes, if we are culturally and linguistically closer to Finns than anyone else, including Swedes, Norwegians and Danes? How come we are wannabes, when before Soviet occupation we were richer than Finns and most of Europe? How come we are wannabes, if we are more to the North than Denmark and capital of Sweden? How come we are wannabes, if UN and CIA already count us as a Nordic country?

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So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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The fact that recently on 9gag my country has been shown as some wannabe Nordic country. How come we are wannabes, if we are culturally and linguistically closer to Finns than anyone else, including Swedes, Norwegians and Danes? How come we are wannabes, when before Soviet occupation we were richer than Finns and most of Europe? How come we are wannabes, if we are more to the North than Denmark and capital of Sweden? How come we are wannabes, if UN and CIA already count us as a Nordic country?

What, the Polandball things?
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"Death of the Author." In no field of science do we consider our own biased, personal interpretation of a work to be the truth.

 

I find most schools of criticism to be absolute crap and riddled with pseudo-science and 'interdisciplinary research' (in other words, formal bullshit). When I read 'As You Like It' by none other than Shakespeare I do not believe it's right to take this feminist or Marxist or formal 'lense' (yet another sign of this crap) and apply it to his work because it's about as relevant as a 10 year olds thoughts on why the moon isn't made of cheese. When reading Shakespeare's work, I do draw my own conclusions from it, but again, there is no basis on which we can support my conclusions--that is, my conclusions are different from your's which is different from his over there which is probably different from Shakespeare's intent, but whatever.

 

And to say the author has no role other than writing a work is pure idiocy, as well. Tolkien built an entire world and to dismiss his intent is to dismiss the entire work. Authors don't create text to analyze, they create much more; characters we relate to, places we would love to visit, etc, etc.

 

As well, you can't just analyze the text as some forms of criticism will have you think. There's so much more to a work than just text. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis essay on 'reader-response criticism,' if criticism was simply the analysis of text, we (non-French speaking people) could analyze French poetry in a similar manner to how we analyze texts in our native tongue.

 

Reader-response criticism is perhaps the only sensible one, and that's that.

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Estonia is a baltic country, just like Lithuania and Latvia. All 3 are basically the exact same country, they just split them up because their languages are slightly different.

Slightly different language? How different must languages be to be "slightly" different? Estonian and Chinese are more closely related than Estonian and Latvian/Lithuanian. Hell, English and Russian are more closely related than Estonian and Latvian/Lithuanian.

Basically the same country? What the bloody heck are you talking about? It's the same as calling UK and Germany basically the same country. Yeah, we are all part of the European Union and well, Latvia borders us, but that is pretty much where the similarities end. Culture, language, economy, ethnic composition, genetic composition, everything practically is different.

 

In any measureable way we are more like Finland. We share the language, pre-crusader culture, we are closest economical partners, and as I said, pre WWII we were even richer then they were. Last 10 years or so talks have been up about building a tunnel or bridge over the Gulf of Finland.

t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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I'm probably misinterpreting your post highlanders, but it seems like you're trying to dismiss the "complainers'" arguments simply on the grounds that you've never met the group of people that they're complaining about, and that there are other more dangerous groups out there. But that doesn't really make any sense or make their complaints any less valid. I've never met a pedophile or neo-Nazi so by your logic, anyone who's whining about pedophiles and neo-Nazis should worry about something else and "get some damn perspective." >_>

 

I dislike circlejerks, it's a sad thing that breeds more ignorance. It's almost comical. People put so much energy into discrediting grotesque versions of these ideologies that if anything they are giving it more exposure.

 

Feminism isn't about a war of the sexes, it never was. It's about accepting a more pluralist world view. Perhaps unexpectedly that's also the path that will give men more freedom as well. Patriarchy does exist, but it's not a social construct that systematically favours men, it's something far more subtle that permeates our society itself, so familiar to us that it's invisible. Society has shackles for both sexes.

 

Things get interesting when you add gender and sex into the equation. As a by-product of patriarchal society, only the female body is objectified. Women hold much of the cards in the dating game. The male body isn't sexualized at all, it's ignored. This is so ingrained that when scientists hooked up straight women to monitor their body's reactions to naked pictures, they found the women got more turned on by looking at naked women than naked men. Haha. Feel free to google the study, the results are quite interesting. Women didn't get turned on by naked men at all. Are women naturally bisexual or is it a by-product of society obsession with female bodies? Who knows, my bet is that women feel more comfortable to express their bisexuality. Society favours inflexible heterosexuality for males. If society changed to abandon patriarchy, we might see some interesting changes. If the male body was sexualized the same way the female one was, it's quite possible we would see women do the chasing. Men would be the ones getting wolf whistled in the street! Heh, wouldn't that be interesting? Of course all of this is speculation. Which aspects of this are biological, cultural, correlations? It's all rather complex. Feel free to ignore my ramblings, I'm a pervert and far more interested in the sexual aspects than the rest.

 

The other aspects of course. Empowering women means that male victims, of rape or domestic abuse for example, would be taken seriously. Not taking these victims seriously is the same as implying that women are too weak to cause any damage, this is damaging for both sexes involved. Child custody and so on. Fairly straightforward conclusions too boring to get into.

 

But it's far more fun to point out how wrong all the crazy people are than talk about the real thing. Thank you circlejerk, thank you for pointing out, again and again, how wrong all the stark raving lunatics are, I would have never noticed on my own. Thank you. Make sure to remind me constantly.

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The way that my self-confidence only tends to cause me trouble be being most of the time too (like seriously trouble-makingly) high and when needed, absurdly low...

t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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