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Your phone: is it your property?


Myweponsg00d

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If we can't agree that you can feel a sense of morality about an invention then theres no point in even talking anymore.

Well, I suppose you could come up with an example of an invention that only has negative uses and therefore could be rightly viewed as being morally repugnant. But cell phones and guns? Not even close.

 

I thought this was a discussion board, not a board where we write a doctoral thesis and prove something correct or not. I wanted to hear peoples thoughts on something, but apparently you guys are too stuck up to expand your minds and discuss philosophical impacts of things. I raise an idea and instead of giving me your ideas, you guys start to poison it with tearing it apart like I am trying to either prove or disprove a theory.

Come now. You didn't just ask for peoples' thoughts: you put forth your own opinion. And rather strongly at that. So people responded, and it just happens that most disagree with you on this.

 

Can you really expect not to get strong reactions when your opening post says "This technology is destroying life as we know it."? :lol:

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Can you really expect not to get strong reactions when your opening post says "This technology is destroying life as we know it."? :lol:

 

I have already stated that the original post is an attempt at creative writing. I wanted it to be interesting to read. However it appears it was misleading. I thought the disclaimer at the bottom would be enough for people to understand. Along with the tons of posts of me saying that I am not trying to dismiss the invention itself as entirely "good" or "bad".

 

People just love to make themselves "right" too much to listen, though. Oh well, I guess they have to entertain themselves somehow seeing the quality of RS updates lately. :lol:

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I didn't think this would reach three pages...much less seven.

 

Okay, g00d, you seem to hold a very traditional down-to-earth view on life, reflecting the past. So let me tell you the reason for the advancement of human history throughout 5000+ years: the gaining of power. Political power, economic power, social power, any sort of power that lets you control something (a kingdom, your company, your food choices, a great influence over your friends, head of the family, whatever).

 

That was the effort of the common human through history and we're still fighting for it now. With cell phones, we can gain so much power. Access to all your employees, staying on top of your friend's situation, publishing a video on YouTube with 5 million views. Where as 200 years ago, living on a farm... you hardly had any friends, you had no chance at opening a business, you were stuck wherever you were and disconnected from society. Disconnected from your power. Because power comes through social interaction, and if you cut that, well, you lack a lot of potential power.

 

The simple question I want to ask you, is, do you really think we should go against the countless hundreds of millions of people who have fought and work for this opportunity of power by denying cell phone, technology, and going backwards in time? Humanity will not advance with technology and with cell phones in particular, it lets us be free from power restrictions, commonly known as, time and space.

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I didn't think this would reach three pages...much less seven.

 

Okay, g00d, you seem to hold a very traditional down-to-earth view on life, reflecting the past. So let me tell you the reason for the advancement of human history throughout 5000+ years: the gaining of power. Political power, economic power, social power, any sort of power that lets you control something (a kingdom, your company, your food choices, a great influence over your friends, head of the family, whatever).

 

That was the effort of the common human through history and we're still fighting for it now. With cell phones, we can gain so much power. Access to all your employees, staying on top of your friend's situation, publishing a video on YouTube with 5 million views. Where as 200 years ago, living on a farm... you hardly had any friends, you had no chance at opening a business, you were stuck wherever you were and disconnected from society. Disconnected from your power. Because power comes through social interaction, and if you cut that, well, you lack a lot of potential power.

 

The simple question I want to ask you, is, do you really think we should go against the countless hundreds of millions of people who have fought and work for this opportunity of power by denying cell phone, technology, and going backwards in time? Humanity will not advance with technology and with cell phones in particular, it lets us be free from power restrictions, commonly known as, time and space.

 

And how many millions of people worked towards developing coal engines? Yet now we are feeling remorse for the damage we have done to the climate, the rainforests, and the polar ice caps.

 

How many millions of people worked towards developing a faster way to raise and breed farm animals and produce? And now we have a slew of health problems linked to pesticides, growth hormones, and artificial ingredients.

 

Hell, the entire "green" movement is counter productive to what man has always strived to do. We cut down forests without remorse, we polluted freely, and we hunted animals to extinction.

 

I just like to point out that when we appear to be dominating something, often times it ends up that we bite off more than we can chew. I won't deny the good things that cell phones do, but do you expect me to just assume that the things have no downside? Unlike basically every other "major invention" that has come along.

 

I mean its just ridiculous. <_< I've read some articles saying "But the waves coming out of cells are just electro-magnetic radiation. Its not any different from sitting in your room with a lamp on!" I mean come on. Light from the sun is EM radiation, and we know that it causes skin cancer...Radiation from nuclear waste is EM waves too...I don't think theres any harm in having a healthy skepticism about the darn things. I mean we can't even decide how much WATER is good for us. They used to say you need to drink a gallon per day minimum. Then people started developing heart+brain conditions because they were peeing out all their electrolytyes.

 

Theres just no reason yet to assume that this is a step forward for humanity. I'm sure that people who were around when they started mass producing cigarettes were pretty pumped about that technology too. If we see a brain tumor epidemic in the next 10-20 years, a lot of people are going to look back and ask themselves "Was this silly little phone REALLY worth it?". I'm asking myself that NOW, BEFORE I have any mental or physical problems from using cells.

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UV radiation actually cause cancer, not EM.

 

 

But to address the Technophobia bit earlier, you come across as someone who has personal values in simplicity and hence can't grasp why some people seem to be addicted... or to a lesser degree .. heavily reliant.. on mobile phones. I'm actually quite surprised that you have no dislike towards computers, which - imo - have the potential to be a more negative effect than mobile phones ever can hope to achieve.

 

 

Edit: for kicks, go an count how many electrical appliances there are in your home, then compare that to how many you can either do without, or use a manual tool to achieve the same end result.

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People just love to make themselves "right" too much to listen, though.

And you don't think you're doing that at least as much yourself?

 

I think most of the folks here have listened. They just don't agree.

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I hardly ever use my phone. I'm not one of those obsessed people who texts 24/7, although I don't have anything against them. However, I do think that they are very useful. Take an example: you are going to meet up with your friends but you can't see them. Call them.

 

Mobiles aren't necessary, they just make life a whole lot easier. I can't even remember the last time I made a call or sent a text, but they are useful all the same.

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People just love to make themselves "right" too much to listen, though.

And you don't think you're doing that at least as much yourself?

 

I think most of the folks here have listened. They just don't agree.

 

I don't think many HAVE listened though. People defend the cells by saying how "useful" they are. I have basically continually been told over and over again the reasons why the cell was invented.

 

What a lot of my viewpoint was about was to ask people to assess why these things are necessary. Many people just buy into things without even thinking about their meaning, and thats what I was asking people to do: think. I still don't think many viewers have even understood yet.

 

Imagine we are asessing a different object: a 100 dollar bill. I ask "why is it a good thing that you stole $100?" and people just say "Well $100 dollars is useful...100 bucks can buy this and that and this..." I'm not asking what is good about the 100...hell it could be any object...50 bucks, a baseball, a TV. What I am asking is why the means to achieving this goal are good, or at least irrelevant.

 

So when we talk about cells...people like the power because you can link in with anyone anywhere...BUT if you want this to happen, they also have to own a cell. You can call in an emergency BUT you must take it with you everywhere. You can recieve unexpected calls, BUT you dont know when something unexpected will happen, so you carry it more often than not.

 

The things a cell can achieve are nice things. If we all had some kind of mental power equivilent to cell phones, I wouldn't ignore it. But the fact that we are all buying this silly little hunk of plastic just to be "caught up" with society seems silly to me. I'd like to hear why the means to achieving this communication are philosophically good, or at least philosophically unimportant.

 

For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that it is a good thing to put a new liver into somebody who needs a new liver. But what if we forcibly extract these organs from prisoners? If I asked you to asess this situation, you wouldn't repeatedly say "Livers are good for living, so if our guy wants to live he needs a liver!" You would assess the philosophy behind the means to which that end is achieved. Thats what I would like to hear. The side of the argument that thinks the philosophical impact of a device such as the cell is positive. All I have heard is the specific superficial reasons why the cell phone DOES good things. But I want you to look at the MEANING of the way that we treat the device.

 

I mean, it could be ANY device really. If we started carrying the energy our body needs in a little electronic cube (like a cell) and thus no longer needed to eat, this hypothetical device would be quite similar to what I'd like to discuss about cell phones.

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There was a time that I didn't want to use my cell-phone. Because I thought (and still think) it is an a-social machine. People can't let it go. Then I decided that my protest wouldn't help anyone and that it only annoyed people and it's wasted money since I pay 11 euro for a contract a month. So, I started using it. I just call and text people whenever it is necessary. I don't use it for twitter, facebook or whatever and when I'm with somebody I won't use it either.

 

The discussion if the thing is useful or not, and that there was a time that people could live without one is kind of irrelevant. Times change, you can either go with it or stay behind.

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There was a time that I didn't want to use my cell-phone. Because I thought (and still think) it is an a-social machine. People can't let it go. Then I decided that my protest wouldn't help anyone and that it only annoyed people and it's wasted money since I pay 11 euro for a contract a month. So, I started using it. I just call and text people whenever it is necessary. I don't use it for twitter, facebook or whatever and when I'm with somebody I won't use it either.

 

The discussion if the thing is useful or not, and that there was a time that people could live without one is kind of irrelevant. Times change, you can either go with it or stay behind.

 

Thank you for coming in and giving a different view that is similar to my own, so that people can understand I'm not crazy. Cells are destroying (or changing) what we know as normal human social behavior. This post never intended to encourage people to lose their cells and go "behind the times." But I did at least want to discuss what many people seem to either ignore or never consider.

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*lights up a smoke while eating a big mac*

 

We're all going to die sooner or later, matter of time.

Not a reason to kill ourselves faster!

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And how many millions of people worked towards developing coal engines? Yet now we are feeling remorse for the damage we have done to the climate, the rainforests, and the polar ice caps.\

Remember that a couple hundred years ago, food was scarce. I'm pretty sure you would agree if you were in such a position, you would cut down a whole forest for the Baron so you can get some meals. We live in a time where the basic necessities are already provided. Why is this so? Technology. In the future, maybe, cell phones could be our communication tool with job offers, business across oceans, space communication, who knows really. The internal combustion engine at first was used to power a horseless wagon. "Oh those damn rich folks and their loud machines destroying the way of the horse." Trains, planes, boats, and trucks carry goods across the world in a flash. Don't tell me this is something you want to see gone away because of some trees getting knocked down or the air being a bit filthy. Humanity has endured worse before and we survived.

 

How many millions of people worked towards developing a faster way to raise and breed farm animals and produce? And now we have a slew of health problems linked to pesticides, growth hormones, and artificial ingredients.

Lets use some hypothetical numbers:

 

Year: [% of hungry] [% of fed]

1600: [90] [10]

1700: [70] [30]

1800: [60] [40]

1900: [50] [50]

2000: [40] [60]

 

Wanna eat or wanna starve?

 

I just like to point out that when we appear to be dominating something, often times it ends up that we bite off more than we can chew. I won't deny the good things that cell phones do, but do you expect me to just assume that the things have no downside? Unlike basically every other "major invention" that has come along.

Of course there are downsides. But the quality of life for the average human, across ANY country, has increased A LOT this last two centuries. Sure, some people did die to our inventions. It is sad and horrible. But countless more would of died to disease and hunger. It's all a world-wide "team effort" pushing Team Humanity into the best possible state it can achieve. I'm not saying we're done, we're still far away, issues like pollution and Global Warming should be fixed, I'm not saying they shouldn't, but if we never had these inventions we would be living on a farm, working from dawn to dusk, no chance of every advancing in society, for the rest of our lives. Now don't lie and say you don't like the position where you are, because there are people worse off than you, and the possibility of being much worse.

 

For the rest of your post, I think you're thinking too much about this. Again, I bring history to help explain: coal miners in the 1800s. Went in holes with their picks and shovels and inhaled so much bad air by today's standards would be worse than Global Warming x50,000. Some died, sure, but many survived maybe with some lung cancer or some other sort of illness, BUT, those who survived averagely lived for a decent length of time. It wasn't happy time but it was time. Nowadays, where we don't even have the closest danger they had, live twice as long probably, how can we have the nerve on saying something simple is so dangerous. Man up, the world is tough, but thanks to technology its not as tough as before.

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I don't think many HAVE listened though.

I think they have listened better than you have. You've been reduced to chasing your tail with one asinine analogy after another.

 

You didn't even reply to my last direct response to your points, and are now just repeating the same claims over and over again. That's not much of a basis for a discussion.

 

People defend the cells by saying how "useful" they are. I have basically continually been told over and over again the reasons why the cell was invented.

 

What a lot of my viewpoint was about was to ask people to assess why these things are necessary.

So you want people to assess why cell phones are "necessary", but you're unhappy when people tell you how they are "useful".

 

Um... huh?! The utility of something often creates a necessity for it, because the alternative is viewed as worse.

 

I also *gave* you *specific* examples of when and how cell phones can be a necessity, and you completely ignored them.

 

Many people just buy into things without even thinking about their meaning, and thats what I was asking people to do: think. I still don't think many viewers have even understood yet.

I think most of the people here (correctly) believe you're engaging in silly navel-gazing about a non-issue.

 

Imagine we are asessing a different object: a 100 dollar bill. I ask "why is it a good thing that you stole $100?" and people just say "Well $100 dollars is useful...100 bucks can buy this and that and this..." I'm not asking what is good about the 100...hell it could be any object...50 bucks, a baseball, a TV. What I am asking is why the means to achieving this goal are good, or at least irrelevant.

Another analogy so completely irrelevant and silly that I can't even respond to it. How carrying a cell phone is in any way comparable to *theft* is utterly beyond me.

 

So when we talk about cells...people like the power because you can link in with anyone anywhere...BUT if you want this to happen, they also have to own a cell. You can call in an emergency BUT you must take it with you everywhere. You can recieve unexpected calls, BUT you dont know when something unexpected will happen, so you carry it more often than not.

So?

 

You have yet to make ONE cogent argument for why this is a problem. Every post you repeat the same hand-wringing about the horrors of "having to carry the phone with you!" but you haven't told anyone any reason why this is anything more than a figment of your imagination.

 

(By the way, in case you weren't aware, they don't surgically implant cell phones. You *can* decide when to take them with you and when not. You can even turn them *off*, by golly! :) )

 

But the fact that we are all buying this silly little hunk of plastic just to be "caught up" with society seems silly to me.

Yes, that would be silly -- if it were true. I don't own a cell phone to be "caught up" with anyone. I don't know anyone else who does either.

 

Again, it's the same fallacy you used before: you're presuming the very thing you're worrying about when it isn't true.

 

I'd like to hear why the means to achieving this communication are philosophically good, or at least philosophically unimportant.

Asked and answered.

 

For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that it is a good thing to put a new liver into somebody who needs a new liver. But what if we forcibly extract these organs from prisoners?

WTF?

 

Um.

 

Cell phones are tools. They should be used wisely, and not used by those who are not competent with them.

 

Same with guns.

 

Same with analogies.

 

You, my friend, need to step away from the analogy before someone gets hurt.

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Another analogy so completely irrelevant and silly that I can't even respond to it. How carrying a cell phone is in any way comparable to *theft* is utterly beyond me.

 

 

The analogy is to the discussion, not to the specifics. I proposed a discussion where we talk about the ethics of "stealing 100 dollars". The analogy was meant to be towards our discussion of the ethics of "using the cellphone".

 

Talking only about what you can DO WITH 100 dollars would be like talking about what you DO WITH a cell phone.

 

I've ignored all of the things about how the specific device of a cellphone is "useful" because it is off topic. If we wanted to talk about the ethics of stealing 100 dollars, you wouldnt just say "100 dollars is good, 100 dollars buys things, 100 dollars is money" because that would be irrelevant. Your argument for the morality of stealing 100 dollars would not just focus on what you can do with 100 dollars, because the product you are stealing is pretty irrelevant. The discussion is whether you think it is good or bad to steal something. You are talking about the benefits that the end object has, while I am questioning the means by which we achieve that end object.

 

The analogy is to our discussion. I see a problem with THE WAY THE THINGS ARE USED. I dont see a problem with instantly contacting people. I dont see a problem with saving peoples lives. I'm not saying that these things are definitively good ("good" is quite in the eyes of the beholder) but there is certainly nothing bad with being able to contact someone to save your life. You continue to talk about the benefits of the specific invention, when the points I raised have little to do with it.

 

If there was some other imaginary invention that had the same social stigma as a cell phone, this thread could discuss that. But, the cell phone is the first electronic invention to hold such a "position" in our society. I've also said time and time again that I dont want to achieve a definitive answer if cells are or arent "good" but rather to discuss the philosophical meaning behind their use.

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That last post reminded me of the Driod commerical.

 

"When there's no limit to what Droid gets, there's no limit to what Droid does

 

A cell phone just like a regular phone, a car, trains, airplanes, computers, paper, ink, ships, etc, was at first used for a single use. It has evolved to hold multiple uses.

 

Computers were used to count up numbers and conduct mathematical formulas. Now we play video games on it. Quite a transformation, no? I bet the guys in IMB back in the day were mighty pissed when somebody added games on their "businessman's computer".

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That last post reminded me of the Driod commerical.

 

"When there's no limit to what Droid gets, there's no limit to what Droid does

 

A cell phone just like a regular phone, a car, trains, airplanes, computers, paper, ink, ships, etc, was at first used for a single use. It has evolved to hold multiple uses.

 

Computers were used to count up numbers and conduct mathematical formulas. Now we play video games on it. Quite a transformation, no? I bet the guys in IMB back in the day were mighty pissed when somebody added games on their "businessman's computer".

 

Haha, thats a very good observation, and probably one of the reasons I hate the current phone trend. The concept of a cell is pretty great: possibly save your life? Accomplish more work? Sounds like good things. Now, I'd say the devices are used more for procrastination than for accomplishing anything useful.

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I see them as a couple of steps away from a mini-laptop. They have internet access, hold information, and can be installed with certain software (apps). If the keypad was bigger, had a operating system (iTouch has these?), and allowed more software to be installed (through downloading) then it would be a computer...with phone access, but mobile.

 

I can certainly see that accomplishing lots of useful stuff. For instance, truckers, who depend of communication between them and their dispatchers, maps for directions, and basic contact to home, a small mobile computer better than a cell phone can be all of these things...in one. Beats carrying around a laptop that can't fit in your pocket when unloading or with ease on and off truck stops.

 

And you can't stop very useful things being used as procrastinators by some. Blame the attitude, not the device. And even then, you can't do anything about the attitude so stop complaining about anything.

 

EDIT: My last paragraph reminded me of Prohibition. People hated certain drinker's attitudes, so they banned all of liquor. Those who didn't abuse couldn't drink it anymore. Also, it had a deeper issue in which why there was so many drunks then than now. It was social-economic standings, where nowadays liquor is legal but not overboard. Why? We're fairly content with our lives to have to resort getting drunk every night.

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I have a phone that calls stuff and sends text messages. I'll have it until I accidentally drop it in a lake or get it run over by a train or some other stupid bloop on my part.

 

Then I'll get another one that just calls and texts. I don't really see the point in getting a $400 phone w/ some crazy contract. I don't need a GPS to tell me where I am, I'll just look at the bloody street sign or ask someone.

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I have a phone that calls stuff and sends text messages. I'll have it until I accidentally drop it in a lake or get it run over by a train or some other stupid bloop on my part.

 

Then I'll get another one that just calls and texts. I don't really see the point in getting a $400 phone w/ some crazy contract. I don't need a GPS to tell me where I am, I'll just look at the bloody street sign or ask someone.

 

 

I have t-mobile, which has arguable the worst internet outta like any company. And you're right, I could do just fine with my old Nokia 3500 xpressmusic, in fact, I could text w/o looking because it used a num pad, and not a qwerty like my g1. (Lol, I was like "how do you spell qwerty" >,<) But, I still have a contract until April 14 next year, what happens if I need a phone like a BB or a smart phone just in case I need to used the internet? Etc. Is it a luxury for me? Of course, but I just like to think ahead. Once my contract is up, ima convince my dad to pay for my Verizon plan fml. T mobile is so awful. (my dad pays for minutes, I pay for data plan and phone itself.)

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I have a phone that calls stuff and sends text messages. I'll have it until I accidentally drop it in a lake or get it run over by a train or some other stupid bloop on my part.

 

Then I'll get another one that just calls and texts. I don't really see the point in getting a $400 phone w/ some crazy contract. I don't need a GPS to tell me where I am, I'll just look at the bloody street sign or ask someone.

 

 

I have t-mobile, which has arguable the worst internet outta like any company. And you're right, I could do just fine with my old Nokia 3500 xpressmusic, in fact, I could text w/o looking because it used a num pad, and not a qwerty like my g1. (Lol, I was like "how do you spell qwerty" >,<) But, I still have a contract until April 14 next year, what happens if I need a phone like a BB or a smart phone just in case I need to used the internet? Etc. Is it a luxury for me? Of course, but I just like to think ahead. Once my contract is up, ima convince my dad to pay for my Verizon plan fml. T mobile is so awful. (my dad pays for minutes, I pay for data plan and phone itself.)

When have you absolutely needed to use the internet where you couldn't just access a computer, or a library, or some's ipod or some such?

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