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Chaotic is better than Divine/Elysian


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You're right, it isn't useless to prevent smaller hits, but isn't that exactly what a Chaotic Shield will do with +20 Stab, +25 Slash, +11 Crush and +32 Range Defense? :razz:

 

I agree.

 

Comparing a chaotic kiteshield to a divine/elysian spirit shield is like comparing a dragonfire shield to a dragon square shield in the difference of defence bonuses.

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You're right, it isn't useless to prevent smaller hits, but isn't that exactly what a Chaotic Shield will do with +20 Stab, +25 Slash, +11 Crush and +32 Range Defense? :razz:

 

I agree.

 

Comparing a chaotic kiteshield to a divine/elysian spirit shield is like comparing a dragonfire shield to a dragon square shield in the difference of defence bonuses.

 

Those extra stats do prevent some hits. But as said earlier, the added defense doesn't stack in a straight line and has little effect. Let's say you have 250 defense points. With 25 extra stats, that is 10% better. But because the effect decreases on higher levels of defense, you can easily say.. 5% effect? Tops?

 

Then take this into account and ''add'' it to the %-effect of the chaotic and you are still short.

 

The spirit shields remain the top if you have the money to buy one. Chaotic shields are a great 2nd place in my opinion.

 

As for the cost discussion:

 

Chaotic shields cost! money over time and time. (recharging tokens)

Having a spirit shield (divine / ely.. w/e) has an opportunity cost (having to spend 500m-1b means you can't use this money somewhere else) aka reserved

Having a spirit shield brings risk. Streetprices may drop dramatic, but often for merchanters isn't a problem. Junk has it's uses to them.

Chaotic shields are 'stable' as in no price and thus no risk.

 

To me personally, this discussion is starting to look like a comparison between apples and pears. Ofcourse, they are both fruits.. but can you compare them?!

On the one side we have a shield that is obtainable for.. almost anyone. 80 dungeoneering and you've got one (basically)

On the other side we have one of the most expensive items in terms of GE value, in terms of getting one (corping isn't without risk/cost) and a streetvalue that is beyond comprehensible.

 

Lose 1, you lose a lot of time. Lose the other.. your losing a 1b gp item. One is valued more in time, the other more in GP.

 

It is hard to compare these. But for all those who want to discuss. If you ever get the choice wonder yourself this: ''Is it realistic that I will get 80 dungeoneering or is it realistic that I can afford the other?'' ;) Use that one

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(I didnt read more then the first page, just to get that out there.)

 

I feel Chaotic wins in accesibility compared to divine/elysian.

It would take me a while to use 500m+ in charging a chaotic shield also.

(2500 Hours of combat, if my math isnt wrong.)

 

Thats 104 Days of 24 hour combat per day.

 

Lets say im in constant combat 7 hours a day. It would take me 357 days of that before the recharge cost would hit 500m (about where elysian/divine are located).

 

After those days pass, its as if you died in pvp/boss hunting/some other accident and lost a divine/elysian.

 

 

I know this doesnt have anything to do with how effective the shields are in different locations. This is more of a pinpoint of how insane divine/elysian prices are compared to the Chaotic shield.

 

(This is also assuming chaotic shield last 10 hours. It might even take longer for the cost to reach 500m if the shield lasts 20 hours like I heard the weaponry does.)

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Until both shields are thoroughly stress tested with identical stats and gear on a variety of different bosses, this is all speculation. Besides, for 99.999% of runescapers the results wouldn't matter one bit, because almost no one can afford a 500m-1b shield. 500m is more than my entire bank. On the other hand, I might be willing to put in the hours for 80 dungeoneering + 200k tokens, especially when batch 2 is released. But not before I get my rapier, obviously.

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You can't use cost as an argument as to why one is better. If I really want an item because it is the best for something I will find a way to get it. As it turns out I got my divine on the GE when it was 3/5 of its current price.

Am I going to sell it and get a chaotic shield? No - divine is better.

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Chaotic > Divine/Ely

 

Why?

Cost. :thumbup:

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Elysian - Has a 70% chance of reducing damage taken by 25%.

.7x.25 makes that a 17.5% reduction is damage by the spec alone.

17.5 of all 3 combat styles = 17.5% end number.

 

Divine - 30% of damage taken is removed. Half of this 30% is removed from Prayer instead, while the remaining half is ignored.

well, if you got the prayer to use it, 30 off.

30% of all styles = 30%.

as damage reduction efect all hits higher then 0, max hit is of no inportence.

 

 

all efecting hits of 200+

Chaotic Kiteshield: reduces Ranged damage by 20% and Melee damage by 10%

Eagle-eye Kiteshield: reduces Magic damage by 20% and Ranged damage by 10%

Farseer Kiteshield: reduces Melee damage by 20% and Magic damage by 10%

 

20% 1 style, 10% 1 style, 0% 1 style.

avrige of 10% damage of per a style.

 

now here is the inportent part,

10% of each hit abouve 200, asumeing what your fighting 2 things with a max of say 300 and 500 (thay use all 3 combat styles to the same amount).

max of 300 means 1 third of hits gets 10% off = 3.33% damage reduction.

max of 500 means 60% of hits gets 10% off = 6% damage reduction.

 

now not careing about the stats of the shields, and asumeing the monsters your fighting uses all 3 combat styles the same amount with same max hit ect in the long run.

that means Elysian's - 17.5% and Divine's 30% total pwns chaotc's 3.33% and 6%.

 

 

now the higher the max hit of the creture:

the less usefull Elysian becouse becouse soon you NEED damage reduction insted of haveing a 70% chanse of geting reduction.

the more usefull chaotic shilds efect becouse in terms of % of hits weakend, but only if you have the corect styled shield, and if the monster your fighting uses 2 or 3 combat styles then things will start to fall apart.

the more usefull Divine becomes as a 100% chanse of blocking + 30% + all 3 combat styles.

 

from a purely mathimatical vew (asumeing my maths is not off), chaotic shields have no hope vs Divine, and in weaker monsters, Elysian.

i could go on about the stats of them, but you would find thay may be better but not as "rounded" as spirit shields. and chaotic degrade.

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Elysian - Has a 70% chance of reducing damage taken by 25%.

.7x.25 makes that a 17.5% reduction is damage by the spec alone.

17.5 of all 3 combat styles = 17.5% end number.

 

I tried to explain this earlier you can not avg ely's soak ability off a scale bigger then 1 which means there is no such thing as an average percentage of how much dps i can soak its will always be 25% 70% of the time not 17.5% 100% of the time. The code/algorithm in place is based off each individual hit not over a X amount of hits/damage taken.

 

Therefore saying it takes off 17.5% 100% of the time will either make it sound worse or better then it really is for that fact you have a 70% chance each time you take damage not 70% of the next 100 times you take damage 25% percent of those 100 hits will be reduced. It is only based off each hit and the "dice" is thrown again for the next time.

 

Which could mean 100/100 of the next hits could be reduced by 25% or 0/100 of the next hits could be reduced trying to average out something that can be averaged is just misleading.

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You can't use cost as an argument as to why one is better. If I really want an item because it is the best for something I will find a way to get it. As it turns out I got my divine on the GE when it was 3/5 of its current price.

Am I going to sell it and get a chaotic shield? No - divine is better.

 

Dont know if that was pointed at me or not, but I said:

 

I know this doesnt have anything to do with how effective the shields are in different locations. This is more of a pinpoint of how insane divine/elysian prices are compared to the Chaotic shield.

 

If it wasnt pointed at me, ignore this message. ;)

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Elysian - Has a 70% chance of reducing damage taken by 25%.

.7x.25 makes that a 17.5% reduction is damage by the spec alone.

17.5 of all 3 combat styles = 17.5% end number.

 

I tried to explain this earlier you can not avg ely's soak ability off a scale bigger then 1 which means there is no such thing as an average percentage of how much dps i can soak its will always be 25% 70% of the time not 17.5% 100% of the time. The code/algorithm in place is based off each individual hit not over a X amount of hits/damage taken.

 

Therefore saying it takes off 17.5% 100% of the time will either make it sound worse or better then it really is for that fact you have a 70% chance each time you take damage not 70% of the next 100 times you take damage 25% percent of those 100 hits will be reduced. It is only based off each hit and the "dice" is thrown again for the next time.

 

Which could mean 100/100 of the next hits could be reduced by 25% or 0/100 of the next hits could be reduced trying to average out something that can be averaged is just misleading.

 

....

 

On average, 70% of the times that you get hit the effect will activate. When you get hit, there is an equal chance for you to get hit for anything between 0 and the max. So over time, you will get hit for every possible hit a similar number of times. So the 70% will account for 70% of the total damage with an infinitely large sample size, and 25% of that will be ignored. So if 25% of 70% is ignored, then 17.5% is ignored over time.

 

You saying that more or less could be ignored is...obvious. That usually happens with any percentage wth a non infinite sample size, and since there never is an infinite sample size, that usually happens, but over time you tend toward whatever the percentage is.

 

EDIT: All of that is assuming that the elysian effect only affects hits and not misses...which could be wrong...but I would think that coding the effect would make more sense if they had it check for a miss first, then again I have no idea if they actually did.

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Elysian - Has a 70% chance of reducing damage taken by 25%.

.7x.25 makes that a 17.5% reduction is damage by the spec alone.

17.5 of all 3 combat styles = 17.5% end number.

 

I tried to explain this earlier you can not avg ely's soak ability off a scale bigger then 1 which means there is no such thing as an average percentage of how much dps i can soak its will always be 25% 70% of the time not 17.5% 100% of the time. The code/algorithm in place is based off each individual hit not over a X amount of hits/damage taken.

 

Therefore saying it takes off 17.5% 100% of the time will either make it sound worse or better then it really is for that fact you have a 70% chance each time you take damage not 70% of the next 100 times you take damage 25% percent of those 100 hits will be reduced. It is only based off each hit and the "dice" is thrown again for the next time.

 

Which could mean 100/100 of the next hits could be reduced by 25% or 0/100 of the next hits could be reduced trying to average out something that can be averaged is just misleading.

 

....

 

On average, 70% of the times that you get hit the effect will activate. When you get hit, there is an equal chance for you to get hit for anything between 0 and the max. So over time, you will get hit for every possible hit a similar number of times. So the 70% will account for 70% of the total damage with an infinitely large sample size, and 25% of that will be ignored. So if 25% of 70% is ignored, then 17.5% is ignored over time.

 

You saying that more or less could be ignored is...obvious. That usually happens with any percentage wth a non infinite sample size, and since there never is an infinite sample size, that usually happens, but over time you tend toward whatever the percentage is.

 

EDIT: All of that is assuming that the elysian effect only affects hits and not misses...which could be wrong...but I would think that coding the effect would make more sense if they had it check for a miss first, then again I have no idea if they actually did.

 

 

The thing is how far would we have to go to get to this middle point your talking about, that equals 17.5% or close to it, 100 hits 1,000 hits 10,000 hits. The fact is that computer code/algorithm's tend to be way to non-linear in their outcomes over time, it can't really be defined down to an exact number without extensive testing. That could also prove that the amount of damage soaked by the effects could land up more left or right of the center then you think. your trying to put a linear number to a non-linear algorithm which can't really be done. It has a better chance to average out more along the lines of 15% or 20% the more you do something won't make things even out over time example: " two wrongs don't make a right" and so on.

 

 

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I really don't see how there's an argument here. The increased stats might prevent a little damage, yes, but there's a HUGE difference between a 30% reduction and a POSSIBLE 10% reduction. That's a much bigger difference than MAYBE avoiding an extra hit or two in the course of a fight. Bosses and PVP are the only situations in which shields are applicable (barring dragons and wyverns), and the Divine wins EVERY TIME. There's no testing needed. There's no possible way to dispute the fact that a CONSTANT THIRTY PERCENT REDUCTION will ALWAYS trump a CHANCE at a TEN PERCENT REDUCTION.

 

I mean, Jesus Christ, how is this even debatable? The only situation I can think of in which a chaotic shield MIGHT be better is barrows. Are the chaotic shields more accessible? For most people, yes. Are they better? No, absolutely not.

 

Arguing over costs is a completely null point. These are the best shields in the game. People WILL use them regardless of how much they cost to maintain.

 

Everyone in this thread should search for Divine Spirit Shield Analysis on the RSOF for a mathematical rundown of how the Divine Spirit Shield works and how much it costs to maintain. It is undeniably and irrefutably the best shield in the game.

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It seems that Chaotic kiteshield only "soakes" (just call it reduce for crying out loud) when the damage is 20 or more. So if it's less than 20 it won't work. And if it works it only reduces 10% melee damage and 20% ranged, and no magic.

 

Divine reduces 30% of all attacks, 15% ignored while 15% taken from your prayer point. Divine wins.

 

 

Wonder what new word Jagex will use to describe a shields ressistance ability. How about guessing?

 

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

 

Well, I wouldn't put it like that. For everyone who can't afford a divine/elysian, these shield are still better than a lot of other shields in game. Heck, if spirit shields wouldn't exist, these shields would be the latest great item to get.

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Elysian - Has a 70% chance of reducing damage taken by 25%.

.7x.25 makes that a 17.5% reduction is damage by the spec alone.

17.5 of all 3 combat styles = 17.5% end number.

 

I tried to explain this earlier you can not avg ely's soak ability off a scale bigger then 1 which means there is no such thing as an average percentage of how much dps i can soak its will always be 25% 70% of the time not 17.5% 100% of the time. The code/algorithm in place is based off each individual hit not over a X amount of hits/damage taken.

 

Therefore saying it takes off 17.5% 100% of the time will either make it sound worse or better then it really is for that fact you have a 70% chance each time you take damage not 70% of the next 100 times you take damage 25% percent of those 100 hits will be reduced. It is only based off each hit and the "dice" is thrown again for the next time.

 

Which could mean 100/100 of the next hits could be reduced by 25% or 0/100 of the next hits could be reduced trying to average out something that can be averaged is just misleading.

 

....

 

On average, 70% of the times that you get hit the effect will activate. When you get hit, there is an equal chance for you to get hit for anything between 0 and the max. So over time, you will get hit for every possible hit a similar number of times. So the 70% will account for 70% of the total damage with an infinitely large sample size, and 25% of that will be ignored. So if 25% of 70% is ignored, then 17.5% is ignored over time.

 

You saying that more or less could be ignored is...obvious. That usually happens with any percentage wth a non infinite sample size, and since there never is an infinite sample size, that usually happens, but over time you tend toward whatever the percentage is.

 

EDIT: All of that is assuming that the elysian effect only affects hits and not misses...which could be wrong...but I would think that coding the effect would make more sense if they had it check for a miss first, then again I have no idea if they actually did.

 

 

The thing is how far would we have to go to get to this middle point your talking about, that equals 17.5% or close to it, 100 hits 1,000 hits 10,000 hits. The fact is that computer code/algorithm's tend to be way to non-linear in their outcomes over time, it can't really be defined down to an exact number without extensive testing. That could also prove that the amount of damage soaked by the effects could land up more left or right of the center then you think. your trying to put a linear number to a non-linear algorithm which can't really be done. It has a better chance to average out more along the lines of 15% or 20% the more you do something won't make things even out over time example: " two wrongs don't make a right" and so on.

 

ok see your points, but may i say whether or not 70% to 25% = 17.5% or does not doesant really mean that much. all we know is that it will somewhat avrige that.

and its not really on toic, is Chaotic is better than Divine/Elysian?

so lets think about that, say that 17.5% is total jiberish and its half as efective for whateva reson, makeing it 8.75(say 9)% reduction via spec...

 

thats still an imrpovement on a monster with a max hit of 500 (on all 3 styles) only 6% v 9% but still, and tell me, does 9% even look near to the real number?

although yes this number could be twissted in any number of ways (chaotic haveing better stats makeing up for the loss of spec, monster not haveing all 3 styles/weak in 1 or 2 styles, cost ect) but i still feal that spirit shields are the better option.

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

 

Wow... typical JaGeX ripping people off. :rolleyes:

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

 

Wow... typical JaGeX ripping people off. :rolleyes:

 

 

How do you phrase it in a better manner then? Up to 20% is UP TO 20%. :rolleyes: Granted many people here missed out this part, but saying that Jagex 'ripped you off'?

 

And even if it's a full 20%/10% absoption, chaotic still isnt't better than divine, at at best on par with elysian.

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

 

Wow... typical JaGeX ripping people off. :rolleyes:

 

 

How do you phrase it in a better manner then? Up to 20% is UP TO 20%. :rolleyes: Granted many people here missed out this part, but saying that Jagex 'ripped you off'?

 

And even if it's a full 20%/10% absoption, chaotic still isnt't better than divine, at at best on par with elysian.

 

the point made in the opening post wasnt so much about the absorption rate though. The point raised was that because of the better defense stats that the chaotic kite has compared to divine/ely it would arguably be better. As said in the first post: deflecting all damage is better than deflecting some damage.

 

That point is still valid.

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Ahahahahaha...

Read --> 17-18-184-60989186

Evidently they don't even soak up the full 10 or 20% every time.

 

When they say "up to 20%" they mean somewhere between 0% and 20%... so, these shields are really not very good at all.

 

Wow... typical JaGeX ripping people off. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

How do you phrase it in a better manner then? Up to 20% is UP TO 20%. :rolleyes: Granted many people here missed out this part, but saying that Jagex 'ripped you off'?

 

And even if it's a full 20%/10% absoption, chaotic still isnt't better than divine, at at best on par with elysian.

 

the point made in the opening post wasnt so much about the absorption rate though. The point raised was that because of the better defense stats that the chaotic kite has compared to divine/ely it would arguably be better. As said in the first post: deflecting all damage is better than deflecting some damage.

 

That point is still valid.

 

Valid yes, but I am going to have to say 20-30 more defense stats is not going to matter much in comparison to the 30% damage reduction of the divine.

 

Assuming you got hit constant 100's, the chaotic shield's extra defense would have to account for an extra miss EVERY 1 in 3.3 hits for it to be equal to the divine in terms of total damage taken. I just don't see that happening, but its virtually impossible to prove one way or the other unless you run like a 100k sample size.

 

Is it a good shield? [cabbage] ya it is! Range tanks in PvP with these will wreck especially with the new range prayer coming. It's better than DFS for sure, Ely is arguable since Ely special is random, but I feel divine is still better by far no matter what since most of your defense comes with your other armor not just the shield.

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The original post is that the extra defence of chaotic shield would mean that it's full capability outshines that of divine/elysian, including all the special effects, which is clearly not true at all for divine at least.

 

If the argument was only about how more defence bonus is better and nothing else, it wouldn't even be 'valid', it'll be a fact. Who doesn't know that more bonus = better? :blink:

 

And now that it's shown that chaotic shield only absorb up to, or not absolutely 20%/10% damage, I believe even elysian is better than it. Jagex seems rather stingy with the benefits of the shields tbh, for the time invested and cost of recharge.

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"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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